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Why dont you like CF or CFE?
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how could short intense workouts alone make me a better traithlete?
The trainers are egotistical/elitist
the community is egotistical/elitist
Contrary to CF/CFE belief, traditional physiologists don't have it "wrong."
The good parts of CFE aren't new, and the new stuff isn't good.
because Jorge said
I don't care about CF/CFE one way or the other and do what I feel like
High intensity weight training isn't new, just do what you enjoy doing
It's just another fad
don't know what you are talking about
I love my carbon fiber
Like it! :)
A, B, C, and D
who cares? s/b/r/ baby!
Can we get back to important stuff, like debating IM tats?
blissfully ignorant
random training is not effective

2009-09-28 10:28 AM

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Expert
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Subject: Why dont you like CF or CFE?
Over on slow twitch there is a decently heated debate about the mentality and effectiveness of CF/CFE. There is a thread here as well that was dug up that also wasnt well received. Hopefully I provide enough choices to get a general idea.


2009-09-28 10:35 AM
in reply to: #2429597

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Runner
Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?

I don't know anything about the CF/CFE community, so I can't say anything about the trainers or the practitioners.

However, I know what I enjoy, and I know what works for me.  So I don't engage in CF/CFE because I have no interest in doing so.  Running makes me happy, so I run.  It's really as simple as that.  If someone enjoy CF/CFE, then they should be happy they are doing something they enjoy.

Really, it comes down to the individual, and his or her goals.  I cannot speak about what anyone else is trying to achieve, so I won't.

2009-09-28 10:37 AM
in reply to: #2429597

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?
What's CF/CFE?
2009-09-28 10:42 AM
in reply to: #2429597

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?

Crossfit / CrossFit endurance, I assume.

The thread on BT that the OP refers to wasn't hating on CF/CFE, it was hating on the fact that CF/CFE folks were making very debatable points on the effectiveness of CF/CFE in making one a better triathlete.  Specifically.

The non-CF/CFE were just making the point in thread that CF/CFE may not make one better.  Not hating.

If you want to do it, do it.  If you think it makes you better, do it. 

2009-09-28 10:44 AM
in reply to: #2429597

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?
Didn't put it on the poll, but something like it:

For endurance athletes, the proof is in the pudding.  And the physiology behind traditional training methods is sound and until proven otherwise, works extremely well.

My thoughts as to why:

- You cannot convert over Fastwitch fibers to enable them to become more endurance based unless you are doing endurance work.

- There is no substantive evidence that increasing muscular strength increases endurance capabilities and it sometimes shown to be OPPOSITE.  Only shown (in cycling) to increase explosive short short term power (i.e. - track speed in sprints).

- Physiological adaptations to long term endurance requirements must be accomplished through taxing the systems through prolonged exercise.  There is no way around that.

- There are no pro endurance athletes that can pinpoint using exclusively CF/CFE methods to excel in their sport (and the ones that are "backing" the process still have 10 - 15 years of a traditional endurance background - so their base is already huge).
2009-09-28 11:02 AM
in reply to: #2429597

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?
Because the claims of his inventor are ridiculous/arrogant based on pure anecdotal evidence and IMO it cashes on the ignorance of some athletes and unfortunatley some coaches.

CFE has good concepts that are beneficial for athletes but that is something any knowledgable coach should know (training load management), but to claim endurance athletes don't know how to train and that CFE is the way to go when the results are average in terms of triathlon performance is enough for me to discard it as snake oil, not because it won't work but because what they offer is nothing new, innovative and it is certainly misleading in its claims or assertions as to what good endurance training is.

It is amusing how they claim CFE is not for everyone and use it as a way to get new followers, "only those who can take it will suceed". Yeah, I know, CFE is only for the athlete who can only train limited hours, those who want to be strong for different aspects in life and  bla bla bla. Many coaches who understand physiology and training concepts can help any athlete to improve their performance even with limited hours for training, that's about training load management and not about any magic bullet or snake oil approach.

The issues is not about doing just little but very hard training vs doing a lot of very easy training, IOW it is not and "either or" approach (or cerntainly it shouldn't be at all); anyone who believes that it is not only ignorant about sports physiology but also dismissing the availble literature/research and the success of thousands of athletes at all levels for the past century.

I said it before; I know examples of thousands of specialists athletes succeeding in their specialty sport, but I don't know any generalist succeeding in a specialty sport without investing time training specifically for it.

Edited by JorgeM 2009-09-28 11:16 AM


2009-09-28 11:07 AM
in reply to: #2429597

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?
LMAO, who added the option "because Jorge said"? That's gonna make me giggle for the rest of the day...

PS. nothing againts CFE followers, just the creator silly claims and statements...
2009-09-28 11:11 AM
in reply to: #2429597

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?
There is a cross fit that is opening very close to me and I really want to give it a go if it's not super expensive.

I don't think there is one type of workout that can claim to be the best for everything.  I used to enjoy weights and waaaay back in my military days (mid 1980-1992) we often did high intensity weight training with minimum rest between exercise.  This type of exercises has shown to have some positive effects on keeping testosterone levels elevated, but it's not limited to just cross fit type workout.   Doing all out hill repeats will have me gassed,, same with hill sprints in running. Doing any type of exercise at your all out max for as long as you can will have you ready to hurl.   Which in reality (disguised as my opinion) is the type of structure that makes up CF

I think the backlash is not on the actual workouts but the fact that some people doing them have the belief that's it's the ONLY way to get better at everything.
 Much like someone that is a reformed anything..  It might be due to that the people enjoy it so much that they are spreading the word on what has made them healthier and they are just a little over zealous about sharing.. 

I honestly think that if people really enjoy it, and are seeing a positive  impact in their life then it's a great thing regardless of it's running/biking/swimming/rowing/CF/ rock climbing/etc...

But if you are making claims in advertising you are pretty much opening yourself up to people wanting some actual data to back up your claims.  Unless of course it's a supplement since they always work  Cool
 
2009-09-28 11:13 AM
in reply to: #2429694

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?
and of course since Jorge said so
2009-09-28 11:31 AM
in reply to: #2429597

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Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?
From somebody who did crossfit for over a year.

It was great for what I wanted (to keep my physique)
I could go in, suffer for 20 minutes, go home. It was different every day, which kept it fresh, and of course, beating a previous pr kept it challenging. (Fran PB was 3:17)

However, when I decided I wanted to pursue triathlon training, xfit had to go. You cannot get on a bike for an hour long ride the day after you did 40 Deadlifts at 300+lbs. Or at least I couldn't. I think in the end it boils down to this.

Xfit is great if you just want to be in good shape.
If you want to be a triathlete, you should spend that time swimming/biking/running.
If you want to be a bodybuilder, do a 5 day split (or whatever)
Again, Crossfit is great (although... very unsafe for beginners IMO) if you want to be fit, NOT if you want to be a triathlete... A 3 minute Fran doesn't make my min/mile any faster.
2009-09-28 11:51 AM
in reply to: #2429597

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2009-09-28 1:17 PM
in reply to: #2429597


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Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?
I am an avid CF/CFE'er and I love the program. That does not mean that it is for everyone. I have seen great results with it, especially for the amount of time that I have had to put into the program. I agree that, for a lot of people, It really cannot mix with endurance training. When I was first doing CF, I would be too sore and too tired to do any sort of biking and running for the day. Now I am at a point where I can do two workouts a day with realtive ease. For me, my strength and muscular endurance have gone up a lot, and my times on 5k and 10k runs, and 20 and 40k bikes have gotten a ton better. My first sprint was, in my opinion, a huge success: I did it in 1:15:34, was right at the cutoff for top 10% in the whole event, and 4th in my age group.

I think the most important thing to realize is that just because it works for some people, that does not mean that it is the only way to achieve success, or even the best way. It has been proven that plenty of endurance training will in fact make you a better endurance athlete. Different strokes for different folks. Like I said in some other posts, the thing that bothers me is the "drink the koolaid" effect and the arrogance that CAN be found in the community.

I don't really think people are hating on it, but rather questioning it, which is a completely legitimate thing to do.
2009-09-28 2:26 PM
in reply to: #2429760

Veteran
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Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?
Leegoocrap - 2009-09-28 10:31 AM From somebody who did crossfit for over a year.

It was great for what I wanted (to keep my physique)
I could go in, suffer for 20 minutes, go home. It was different every day, which kept it fresh, and of course, beating a previous pr kept it challenging. (Fran PB was 3:17)

However, when I decided I wanted to pursue triathlon training, xfit had to go. You cannot get on a bike for an hour long ride the day after you did 40 Deadlifts at 300+lbs. Or at least I couldn't. I think in the end it boils down to this.

Xfit is great if you just want to be in good shape.
If you want to be a triathlete, you should spend that time swimming/biking/running.
If you want to be a bodybuilder, do a 5 day split (or whatever)
Again, Crossfit is great (although... very unsafe for beginners IMO) if you want to be fit, NOT if you want to be a triathlete... A 3 minute Fran doesn't make my min/mile any faster.


That is a SICK PR!!!!  I am in Afghanistan at a small outpost with minimal gym equipment, so CF is all I can do.  I am dying to get a crack at Fran!! 

As for the CF/CFE debate......DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO!!!!!!! 
2009-09-28 2:32 PM
in reply to: #2429694

Elite
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Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?
JorgeM - 2009-09-28 11:07 AM LMAO, who added the option "because Jorge said"? That's gonna make me giggle for the rest of the day...

PS. nothing againts CFE followers, just the creator silly claims and statements...


whats funny he is at 16.7% and almost 2nd highest.
2009-09-28 2:38 PM
in reply to: #2429597

Not a Coach
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Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?
Completely ambivalent about CF/CFE, in general.  Question some specific claims.  But I voted for Jorge.
2009-09-28 2:43 PM
in reply to: #2429597

Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?

I don't care at all about Crossfit, nor do I give a rat's patooty about what Jorge thinks either.

Do what you want.



2009-09-28 3:36 PM
in reply to: #2430215

Champion
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Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?
cordova78 - 2009-09-28 3:26 PM
Leegoocrap - 2009-09-28 10:31 AM From somebody who did crossfit for over a year.

It was great for what I wanted (to keep my physique)
I could go in, suffer for 20 minutes, go home. It was different every day, which kept it fresh, and of course, beating a previous pr kept it challenging. (Fran PB was 3:17)

However, when I decided I wanted to pursue triathlon training, xfit had to go. You cannot get on a bike for an hour long ride the day after you did 40 Deadlifts at 300+lbs. Or at least I couldn't. I think in the end it boils down to this.

Xfit is great if you just want to be in good shape.
If you want to be a triathlete, you should spend that time swimming/biking/running.
If you want to be a bodybuilder, do a 5 day split (or whatever)
Again, Crossfit is great (although... very unsafe for beginners IMO) if you want to be fit, NOT if you want to be a triathlete... A 3 minute Fran doesn't make my min/mile any faster.


That is a SICK PR!!!!  I am in Afghanistan at a small outpost with minimal gym equipment, so CF is all I can do.  I am dying to get a crack at Fran!! 

As for the CF/CFE debate......DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO!!!!!!! 


I lived my life for 6mo with the goal of being in the 2:xx mark. Just never meant to be.
That 3:17 almost killed me, I seriously couldn't walk out of the gym after I was done.
2009-09-28 6:27 PM
in reply to: #2429597

Expert
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Subject: RE: Why dont you like CF or CFE?
I've done some of the workouts for fun, 100 burpie challenge, 100 pulls for time, pushes for time, etc. Never in those days would I consider anyone doing pull ups any kind of endurance fit.

Lesson Learned, when in doubt listen to Jorge.
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