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good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season
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 2009-10-08 8:41 AM |
Elite  3315    Miami |  Subject: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-seasonany good literature on running, i can check out. going on vacatino and would like to read some good material. especially books that might give me some better training plans etc on picking up speed in the run in the 5k / 10k area. thanks....much appreciated. |
| 2009-10-08 8:44 AM in reply to: #2449257 |
Not a Coach 11473  Media, PA | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season The Lore of Running Daniels' Running Formula Advanced Marathoning and/or Road Racing for Serious Runners |
| 2009-10-08 8:45 AM in reply to: #2449257 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season |
| 2009-10-08 8:46 AM in reply to: #2449257 |
Runner | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season "Competitive Runner's Handbook" - Bob Glover "Lore of Running" - Timothy Noakes "Run Strong" - Kevin Beck If you want to download/print something - http://lydiardfoundation.org/pdfs/al_training.pdf Ifyou want to skip those altogether, I'll reveal the secret: Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard. You're welcome. |
| 2009-10-08 8:48 AM in reply to: #2449283 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season Scout7 - 2009-10-08 10:46 AM Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard. You are never going to sell a book with only one line in it  Thanks for the Lydiard link; hadn't seen that one before. Shane |
| 2009-10-08 8:49 AM in reply to: #2449292 |
Runner | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season gsmacleod - 2009-10-08 9:48 AM Scout7 - 2009-10-08 10:46 AM Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard. You are never going to sell a book with only one line in it Thanks for the Lydiard link; hadn't seen that one before. Shane True. But I am contemplating selling a lecture series. Welcome! |
| 2009-10-08 8:57 AM in reply to: #2449257 |
Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season |
| 2009-10-08 10:08 AM in reply to: #2449283 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season Scout7 - 2009-10-08 8:46 AM I'll reveal the secret: Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard. You're welcome. trust me i have discovered this secret already, i have learned that by actually running 6-8 miles at easy pace my 5k pace will still drop like a rock. but problem is i am mainly running slow. i almost never ever run fast unless its race. and i want to really train the 5k - 10 k distance for my next year olympi / sprint races. i had a miserable performance in my olympic on the run. more then likely its due to the bike push but my 10k was miserable. i want to have the right training next year to really push the time IN a triathlon none the less to a fast time. thanks for all the literature. |
| 2009-10-08 10:21 AM in reply to: #2449486 |
Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season trix - 2009-10-08 9:08 AM Scout7 - 2009-10-08 8:46 AM I'll reveal the secret: Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard. You're welcome. trust me i have discovered this secret already, i have learned that by actually running 6-8 miles at easy pace my 5k pace will still drop like a rock. but problem is i am mainly running slow. i almost never ever run fast unless its race. and i want to really train the 5k - 10 k distance for my next year olympi / sprint races. i had a miserable performance in my olympic on the run. more then likely its due to the bike push but my 10k was miserable. i want to have the right training next year to really push the time IN a triathlon none the less to a fast time. thanks for all the literature. Is there any way you can race more often? I race very often because I've found that I can't/don't/won't push myself that hard in training. But pay attention to the "sometimes hard" part of Scout's advice. That part is crucial for increasing speed. If you spend all your time running slow it will take a very long time to increase speed. |
| 2009-10-08 10:43 AM in reply to: #2449519 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season Donskiman - 2009-10-08 10:21 AM trix - 2009-10-08 9:08 AM Scout7 - 2009-10-08 8:46 AM I'll reveal the secret: Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard. You're welcome. trust me i have discovered this secret already, i have learned that by actually running 6-8 miles at easy pace my 5k pace will still drop like a rock. but problem is i am mainly running slow. i almost never ever run fast unless its race. and i want to really train the 5k - 10 k distance for my next year olympi / sprint races. i had a miserable performance in my olympic on the run. more then likely its due to the bike push but my 10k was miserable. i want to have the right training next year to really push the time IN a triathlon none the less to a fast time. thanks for all the literature. Is there any way you can race more often? I race very often because I've found that I can't/don't/won't push myself that hard in training. But pay attention to the "sometimes hard" part of Scout's advice. That part is crucial for increasing speed. If you spend all your time running slow it will take a very long time to increase speed. thanks. yeah well that is the funny part i know when to push myself on the swim / bike. and my numbers on the bike have been shooting up from last year ave 17 mph to 23 mph in an olympic this year and although in sprints my 5k times have been comming down. i think i am capable of droping those time much more. i think my training for running isn't best either. i literally strap on HRM set a pace 145 - 155 bpm which is z2 and highend of z2. and just go....i will run 6-8 miles now i run more because of HIM distance. but i still feel like the moment i want to do .5 mile at race pace its not that comfy so i prefer z2. i think if i can create a better plan reading some of these books it will help me take my times in off-season especially way down. |
| 2009-10-08 10:44 AM in reply to: #2449486 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season if you run 10-15 mpw more than you did last season on ave, ALL at a slow pace, you will see 5 and 10k improvements you never thought possible. simply from running more. a 5k is still an endurance event, you need to be running more. once you have a solid volume, personally i would add more, and then some tempo, but if you are pressed for time then you may want to think about adding some sooner. include 4-6x100m strides into 1-3 runs a week near the end. these are accelerations up to race pace and then quickly back down. not a sprint, but just up to race pace. these combined with a tempo run, and solid volume will get you down a LOT in your 5/10k quest. just curious, what does a typical running week, and your times for the 5/10k look like? these would help with some ideas on where to focus (i know you are looking for reading material, but any insight could also help you decide where to focus/look) good luck! |
| 2009-10-08 10:52 AM in reply to: #2449589 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season newbz - 2009-10-08 10:44 AM if you run 10-15 mpw more than you did last season on ave, ALL at a slow pace, you will see 5 and 10k improvements you never thought possible. simply from running more. a 5k is still an endurance event, you need to be running more. once you have a solid volume, personally i would add more, and then some tempo, but if you are pressed for time then you may want to think about adding some sooner. include 4-6x100m strides into 1-3 runs a week near the end. these are accelerations up to race pace and then quickly back down. not a sprint, but just up to race pace. these combined with a tempo run, and solid volume will get you down a LOT in your 5/10k quest. just curious, what does a typical running week, and your times for the 5/10k look like? these would help with some ideas on where to focus (i know you are looking for reading material, but any insight could also help you decide where to focus/look) good luck! here are my triathlon 5k times this year:
my last stand alone 5k has been 20:20 here are my olympic 10k times: MIT triathlon 3/14/09 - 10k 52:02 8:22 mpm Escape to Miami triathlon 9/28/09 - 10k 52:57 8:28 mpm as you can see my 5k times have droped by me simply trying to add more milage per week. my runs are more distance rather then frequency due to HIM BUT....i want to change that a bit meaning more frequency after Nov 8th when my race ends. usually i have 3 runs per week based on the schedule. 1 run is shorter 1 longer 1 after the bike either on satruday or sunday. i am using a 12 week bridge plan from BT. the 2nd olympic as you can see 1 i didn't want to push it. and 2 it had some bridges in the run. none the less i really pushed it on the bike though and i suffered on the run. Edited by trix 2009-10-08 10:53 AM |
| 2009-10-08 10:54 AM in reply to: #2449257 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season bottom line is i have an olympic in march 14 next year. and i really want to drop down my time to a 2:25 or lower.... |
| 2009-10-08 11:02 AM in reply to: #2449608 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season how new are you to running/cycling? a few things stand out to me. 1- the drop off from open to tri run times is pretty big, it should be in the 1 min range for 5k, give or take, and its looking like 3-5 min is happening. so i would look at getting the bike volume up/better pacing. your open run time is relatively fast compared to the tri time, so something is going on during the tri to hurt that. 2- what sort of total milage have you been running? at the speeds you are seeing right now, i would highly sudgest working on getting volume and frequncy up, and not worrying about speedwork at all right now. 3- the good news is you have a lot of imrovement to see through some simple structured training. you need to be running more, more often. simply doing that will get you a lot faster and not have many of the injury risks of doing intervals right now. |
| 2009-10-08 11:09 AM in reply to: #2449257 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season and just to keep this somewhat on topic, if you have not read it, check out running with the buffalos, not training specific but a very cool running book |
| 2009-10-08 11:15 AM in reply to: #2449272 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season JohnnyKay - 2009-10-08 9:44 AM The Lore of Running Daniels' Running Formula Advanced Marathoning and/or Road Racing for Serious Runners My exact choices as well ^^^. |
| 2009-10-08 12:27 PM in reply to: #2449272 |
Expert 721 Chenequa WI | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season JohnnyKay - 2009-10-08 8:44 AM The Lore of Running Daniels' Running Formula Advanced Marathoning and/or Road Racing for Serious Runners ^^^ X3 I love these books. Especially Lore. But, if all I wanted were the training plans for 5k and 10k, I would go with Daniels' Running formul. If all you wanted were training plans for the marathon, than Advanced Marathoning. Noakes' Lore of Running is a phenomonal resource and addresses many (if not all) of the running question posted on this forum. Most importantly, he backs up his stuff with actual references. Note: Because the book is nearly 1000 pages, he references the studies but the actual reference page(s) can be requested from the publisher for free. They'll send it to you as a pdf. Another note: I do not think this is a good book for an "introduction to training plans" nor is it a great book to carry to the beach (1000 pages  ).Daniels' Running formula ought to be a classic by now (maybe it already is). Have a question about VO2? Its here. Heard someone reference VDOT tables and you wonder what they are and how to use them correctly? Go to Daniels. This book addresses many different distances for the middle-distance specialists to the marathoner. If I could only have two books - it would be those two. Pfitzinger's Advanced Marathoning is the newest of the three (at least with the update) as the 2nd version came out last December. If you want to train for and compete in the marathon, instead of just completing the distance, than the training plans and information given here will help you the most. Edited by Gritty 2009-10-08 12:57 PM |
| 2009-10-08 12:54 PM in reply to: #2449626 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season newbz - 2009-10-08 11:02 AM how new are you to running/cycling? a few things stand out to me. 1- the drop off from open to tri run times is pretty big, it should be in the 1 min range for 5k, give or take, and its looking like 3-5 min is happening. so i would look at getting the bike volume up/better pacing. your open run time is relatively fast compared to the tri time, so something is going on during the tri to hurt that. 2- what sort of total milage have you been running? at the speeds you are seeing right now, i would highly sudgest working on getting volume and frequncy up, and not worrying about speedwork at all right now. 3- the good news is you have a lot of imrovement to see through some simple structured training. you need to be running more, more often. simply doing that will get you a lot faster and not have many of the injury risks of doing intervals right now. 7/20/08 is my first ever triathlon race. i have biked before but never swam or run at all. i was athletic from tennis background but never really run because it was a chore. thanks, this helps greatly. my first road bike / tri experience was in Nov of last year since i bought my tri bike. i have mountain biked but since moving to miami that kind of stopped. yes I really felt that in my last olympic i have pushed the bike little too hard but at the same time, my stomach was little so so.... although my bike is strong i think that if i work on the bike fitness and learning to pace bike / run better it will help. i think really that is my problem. i want to go so fast and in a sprint its fine but when you up the distance i should slow a little bit. based on the calculator my 10k pace should be 7 - 7:30 mpm so i figure |
| 2009-10-08 12:57 PM in reply to: #2449586 |
Runner | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season trix - 2009-10-08 11:43 AM thanks. yeah well that is the funny part i know when to push myself on the swim / bike. and my numbers on the bike have been shooting up from last year ave 17 mph to 23 mph in an olympic this year and although in sprints my 5k times have been comming down. i think i am capable of droping those time much more. i think my training for running isn't best either. i literally strap on HRM set a pace 145 - 155 bpm which is z2 and highend of z2. and just go....i will run 6-8 miles now i run more because of HIM distance. but i still feel like the moment i want to do .5 mile at race pace its not that comfy so i prefer z2. i think if i can create a better plan reading some of these books it will help me take my times in off-season especially way down. Here's my honest opinion: Off-season should be spent mostly doing easy stuff. You just gotta do a lot of it. If you run 4x a week. 3 of them are easy, one is a higher intensity, but not by much. Call it a tempo run if you like, doesn't matter. If you want to really see improvements next year, now is the time to up your volume. If you run 3x week now, move up to 5 or 6. If you do 20-30 miles a week now, work up to 50, and hold that for 3 months. You'll see improvements in your 5k times up through marathon with that. As to the not running fast in training... If you can't push yourself in training, having a training plan telling you to may not work. You still gotta learn to push out of your comfort zone. One of the best ways to do that is to race. If you don't want to pay the money, talk to local runners/clubs, and see if anyone faster than you might be willing to run with you once a week. Runners are a friendly group, and if there are any clubs, it's even easier, as most do some sort of organized weekly run. Most people prefer easy. Men are like rivers and lightning; we always seek the path of least resistance. But you need to resist the urge of the body to not work hard. You have already conquered it enough to get off the couch on a consistent basis to train; now you gotta get it actually work a little harder. It's not much different. We stay in our comfort zone because it's comfortable. One last thing to consider, think about WHY you prefer easy effort runs. Are you concerned you're going to bonk? Get injured? Not be able to go as fast as you want? Once you figure out the mental aspect, you can get past the physical one. |
| 2009-10-08 1:09 PM in reply to: #2449257 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season really appreciate all the input.... my last olympic was kind of a disaster....in 6 months time i only improved by 2 min. i know i am training and am right in the middle of base / volume so what can you expect but after doing so well in sprints this year i thought i could shave at least 5 min. that is why next year i want to focus on race distances rather then HIM or IM. HIM training is taking a toll..... |
| 2009-10-08 2:50 PM in reply to: #2449905 |
Expert 973 Berkeley, Calif. | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season Scout7 - 2009-10-08 10:57 AM One last thing to consider, think about WHY you prefer easy effort runs. Are you concerned you're going to bonk? Get injured? Not be able to go as fast as you want? Once you figure out the mental aspect, you can get past the physical one. That's good advice. I've been having trouble pushing outside my comfort zone this year, and in turn have been frustrated by my lack of progress, despite the fact that I'm running a lot more miles than last year. I've never thought about figuring out exactly why running "hard" freaks me out. Something to work on... (And I appreciate the book recommendations too!) |
| 2009-10-08 2:57 PM in reply to: #2449283 |
Champion 5868 Urbandale, IA | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season Scout7 - 2009-10-08 8:46 AM "Competitive Runner's Handbook" - Bob Glover "Lore of Running" - Timothy Noakes "Run Strong" - Kevin Beck If you want to download/print something - http://lydiardfoundation.org/pdfs/al_training.pdf Ifyou want to skip those altogether, I'll reveal the secret: Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard. You're welcome. Best running advice I ever got. Too bad it had to come from a PITA on BT. |
| 2009-10-08 3:06 PM in reply to: #2450260 |
Runner | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season jdwright56 - 2009-10-08 3:57 PM Scout7 - 2009-10-08 8:46 AM "Competitive Runner's Handbook" - Bob Glover "Lore of Running" - Timothy Noakes "Run Strong" - Kevin Beck If you want to download/print something - http://lydiardfoundation.org/pdfs/al_training.pdf Ifyou want to skip those altogether, I'll reveal the secret: Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard. You're welcome. Best running advice I ever got. Too bad it had to come from a PITA on BT. Thanks! It's all about adjusting the delivery to the target audience. |
| 2009-10-08 3:37 PM in reply to: #2449257 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season I'm so glad Scout is back!  |
| 2009-10-08 4:06 PM in reply to: #2449905 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: good books on running....want to improve speed in off-season Scout7 - 2009-10-08 2:57 PM Here's my honest opinion: Off-season should be spent mostly doing easy stuff. You just gotta do a lot of it. If you run 4x a week. 3 of them are easy, one is a higher intensity, but not by much. Call it a tempo run if you like, doesn't matter. If you want to really see improvements next year, now is the time to up your volume. If you run 3x week now, move up to 5 or 6. If you do 20-30 miles a week now, work up to 50, and hold that for 3 months. You'll see improvements in your 5k times up through marathon with that. As usual, Scout is right on the money with his running advice. Just for a n=1 data point on this, both of my standalone run PB's have been set after a long winter of lots of easy running (basic plan was run 7x/week, max long run of 1:30, shortest run of :30 - typical weeks in the range of 50-80km/week). With winters of lots of volume at ~5:00/km pace, my half mary was at ~4:20/km and 5k at ~3:45/km. Shane |
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