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Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles
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 2009-10-25 9:17 PM |
Extreme Veteran  417  Davidson |  Subject: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 MilesSo, I have been running for about a year and a half now and really started picking up my mileage over the past 8 weeks or so since starting a Higdon marathon plan for a marathon on Dec. 12th. I have followed the plan to the letter since mid-August except for the third week in August while on vacation. Since then, I haven't missed a single run and have faithfully followed the instructions for each and every run. Now that I am getting into the second half of the program, the Saturday morning long runs are getting up to 2:45 to 3:00 hours and I am getting cramped up in my calves right around 2 to 2 hours 10 minutes. This has happened to me about four times over the past four weeks. They start with very quick, momentary spasms and within just a minute or two my calves will start completely locking up. They are debillitating and if I do not stop running immediately, very soon I can't even walk. My first thoughts were it was a hydration or nutrition issue. But, after taking three Endurolytes, drinking about 10 oz. of Infinit prior, taking two flasks of Infinit (heavy on the electrolytes) with me in my fuel belt a few weeks back, and STILL cramping up, I figured that wasn't it. Yesterday, since it was raining here, I decided to really test the hydration theory while on my treadmill. Consumed a ton of liquid electrolytes and still....cramps right at just over 2 hours. Daremo would be proud, I think I may be living proof of the 'inadequate fitness' hypothesis of cramping. However, I should be able to do this at this point in the Higdon program. Other background info: I am 52 and just started doing triathlons in 2008. I had no endurance background in anything before last year. I also have had calf cramps in most of the triathlons I have participated in. Frequently, they have completely ruined my whole event, sometimes occuring during the swim, sometimes on the bike, and almost always during the run. Logs are open to view. Any suggestions are appreciated. Greg |
| 2009-10-25 9:31 PM in reply to: #2478850 |
Expert 1456  Central New Jersey | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles Electrolytes are one component, but do they have the potassium, sodium, et all levels that YOUR body needs? Some need more than others. What are you eating before your runs? Getting enough protein? |
| 2009-10-25 9:34 PM in reply to: #2478850 |
Extreme Veteran 1996 Halifax, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles I wonder if you simply need to focus on strengthening your calves? Doing calf raises etc. to build some strength? |
| 2009-10-25 9:40 PM in reply to: #2478850 |
Extreme Veteran 682 Mendenhall, MS | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles I agree, could need more strenght training on calves. |
| 2009-10-25 9:45 PM in reply to: #2478850 |
Expert 721 Chenequa WI | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles Premature muscle fatigue? I saww in your log you suspect it that maybe you're running too fast for the distance. Other things you might try are hill training (not sure if you're already doing this) and light preventative stretching of the calf muscle. |
| 2009-10-25 9:47 PM in reply to: #2478850 |
Pro 4360 Baton Rouge area | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles Endurolytes are not a great source of potassium (25 mg each) and my quick view of infinit only per 2 scoops shows 123mg. In comparison a banana has 400-500 mg. I would try eating 1-2 banana's before or during. I do get cramps swimming and at the beginning of runs during bricks. Eating banana's has helped me with my leg cramps a lot. I used to get leg cramps in the middle of the night but they are a thing of the past now. May not solve your problem but it is worth a try. Also, not a bad thing to eat a banana or two. Orange Juice also has a lot of potassium. Once again a cup or two of OJ won't hurt you either ;>  |
| 2009-10-25 9:47 PM in reply to: #2478873 |
Extreme Veteran 417 Davidson | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles wwlani - 2009-10-25 10:31 PM Electrolytes are one component, but do they have the potassium, sodium, et all levels that YOUR body needs? Some need more than others. What are you eating before your runs? Getting enough protein? wwlani, in the process of trying to address the electrolyte possibility, I went through the 25 or 30 questions on the Infinit site to home in on a good mix for me based on my answers. I ended up with a mix that included a pretty reasonable amount of electrolytes including magnesium, calcium, potassium, and sodium. The first mix didn't seem to have much impact, so I moved the electrolyte slider over two or three more clicks and ordered some more. Same results. I also added some protein to the second mix. As far as nourishment before I run, usually, I drink some Infinit and an Ensure with 13 grams of protein. I usually run early in the morning. Greg |
| 2009-10-25 9:48 PM in reply to: #2478877 |
Extreme Veteran 417 Davidson | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles blairrob - 2009-10-25 10:34 PM I wonder if you simply need to focus on strengthening your calves? Doing calf raises etc. to build some strength? That's something I haven't thought of. Thanks to both of you guys for the suggestion. Greg |
| 2009-10-25 9:49 PM in reply to: #2478850 |
| Lafayette, CO | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles Calf pain is often a sign of worn out shoes, how many miles do yours have on them? |
| 2009-10-25 9:54 PM in reply to: #2478897 |
Extreme Veteran 417 Davidson | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles GaryRM - 2009-10-25 10:47 PM Endurolytes are not a great source of potassium (25 mg each) and my quick view of infinit only per 2 scoops shows 123mg. In comparison a banana has 400-500 mg. I would try eating 1-2 banana's before or during. I do get cramps swimming and at the beginning of runs during bricks. Eating banana's has helped me with my leg cramps a lot. I used to get leg cramps in the middle of the night but they are a thing of the past now. May not solve your problem but it is worth a try. Also, not a bad thing to eat a banana or two. Orange Juice also has a lot of potassium. Once again a cup or two of OJ won't hurt you either ;> Yea, the good thing is, I like all of those things. Regardless, I decided to try the potassium route and found out that those dried apricots you see in the produce section of the grocery store are loaded with potassium, even more than bananas. I have been eating those a good bit as a snack, but not usually right before I run. Regarding the Infinit, you're right about the potassium and that was one of the reasons I moved the slider for electrolytes over to the right, to raise the amount. I am wondering if it might be a good idea to eat a handful of the apricots just before I run, but I have noticed that if I really load up on potassium, it does kind of strange things to my heart beat. So, I have to be careful with that. Thanks, Greg |
| 2009-10-25 9:56 PM in reply to: #2478850 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles Greg...you should re-check your weight change calculations in your last log entry...it appears you adjusted to include the 20 oz. of fluid consumed "after the workout" which has no bearing on the weight you lost during the workout (unless you weighed yourself after you consumed that 20 oz., of course). If this is the case, your actual weight loss during the workout was 20 oz. less than you calculated. With that adjustment, I'd say you're not losing an excessive amount to sweating. You might be right on the edge, though, so maybe it is a pace issue more than an electrolytes issue. Haven't looked deeper into your logs to see if you're running these long workouts at the same pace. |
| 2009-10-25 9:56 PM in reply to: #2478901 |
Extreme Veteran 417 Davidson | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles COSkiGirl - 2009-10-25 10:49 PM Calf pain is often a sign of worn out shoes, how many miles do yours have on them? I thought that could be a problem, so I started tracking the mileage in the BT equipment tracker and I have been replacing my shoes every 300 miles. I am using a pair right now that are only about a month old and 80-90 miles. Greg |
| 2009-10-25 9:56 PM in reply to: #2478850 |
Master 1651 Breckenridge, CO | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles trinewby - 2009-10-25 8:17 PM Any suggestions are appreciated. Greg Cramps are usually just caused by you pushing past your fitness level in duration, intensity, or both. Looking at your mileage you've ramped up very quickly with 95/month in the last two months and only 383 for the first eight months of 2008. Ramping up that fast is risky and I'm not surprised you're having some issues. In terms of just running in general, my experience is that my body shuts down pretty quickly once I've gone past a certain point. You see it all the time where someone will run a bunch of miles at a good pace feeling fine, and then just blow up without much warning. I actually had a similar problem a few months back where any workout I went past 11 miles I had calve soreness that would take a few days to resolve. I could run 10 fine but I just couldn't do 11-13 without some soreness issues. My solution was to just do a bunch of ten milers and every now and then try 13 and see how it went. Eventually, I was able to do the 13 and not require extra recovery. |
| 2009-10-25 10:01 PM in reply to: #2478850 |
Expert 721 Chenequa WI | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles By the way, I am not convinced that hydration and electrolyte levels necessarily play a significant role in muscle cramping. I know that is a popular explanation for cramping, but it might not be true. There have been some studies to suggest otherwise. You can find an interesting summary here. |
| 2009-10-25 10:02 PM in reply to: #2478907 |
Extreme Veteran 417 Davidson | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles tcovert - 2009-10-25 10:56 PM Greg...you should re-check your weight change calculations in your last log entry...it appears you adjusted to include the 20 oz. of fluid consumed "after the workout" which has no bearing on the weight you lost during the workout (unless you weighed yourself after you consumed that 20 oz., of course). If this is the case, your actual weight loss during the workout was 20 oz. less than you calculated. With that adjustment, I'd say you're not losing an excessive amount to sweating. You might be right on the edge, though, so maybe it is a pace issue more than an electrolytes issue. Haven't looked deeper into your logs to see if you're running these long workouts at the same pace. Should have been more clear about that. I consumed the 20 oz. after the workout and before I weighed myself. Gotta' subtract it. Even with that adjustment, it doesn't seem like an excessive weight change for two hours of running, but what do I know? Pacing could be a factor. On all of the runs where I experienced cramping and had to walk for some portion, I included the time spent walking in the calculations for the pace I logged. In general, I run at about a 9:30 to 9:45 pace for the first hour and about 9:45 to 10 pace for the second. Unfortunately, I feel like I am hardly moving and am not comfortable with my gait slower than about a 10' pace. Greg |
| 2009-10-25 10:11 PM in reply to: #2478915 |
Extreme Veteran 417 Davidson | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles Gritty - 2009-10-25 11:01 PM By the way, I am not convinced that hydration and electrolyte levels necessarily play a significant role in muscle cramping. I know that is a popular explanation for cramping, but it might not be true. There have been some studies to suggest otherwise. You can find an interesting summary here. Yea, I am not convinced electrolytes play a role either any more. I have been down that road and it doesn't seem to be doing the trick. The study makes for interesting reading, but I would REALLY like to read Part III. I couldn't find a link for it on the web page. Do you know if they ever published it? Thanks, Greg |
| 2009-10-25 10:18 PM in reply to: #2478909 |
Extreme Veteran 417 Davidson | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles breckview - 2009-10-25 10:56 PM trinewby - 2009-10-25 8:17 PM Any suggestions are appreciated. Cramps are usually just caused by you pushing past your fitness level in duration, intensity, or both. Looking at your mileage you've ramped up very quickly with 95/month in the last two months and only 383 for the first eight months of 2008. Ramping up that fast is risky and I'm not surprised you're having some issues. In terms of just running in general, my experience is that my body shuts down pretty quickly once I've gone past a certain point. You see it all the time where someone will run a bunch of miles at a good pace feeling fine, and then just blow up without much warning. I actually had a similar problem a few months back where any workout I went past 11 miles I had calve soreness that would take a few days to resolve. I could run 10 fine but I just couldn't do 11-13 without some soreness issues. My solution was to just do a bunch of ten milers and every now and then try 13 and see how it went. Eventually, I was able to do the 13 and not require extra recovery. Greg Thanks for the input, breckview. I knew I would be stretching it to jump into the intermediate program, but I did meet the guidelines for starting that program, barely. My fall back in case I felt like it was too much was to drop back to the beginner program. I may end up doing that, but the only problem I am having is this one cramping issue. I don't have a problem from a cardio vascular standpoint and my legs don't necessarily feel overwhelmingly fatigued when the cramps come. Sure, I am feeling tired, but not dead, if you know what I mean. By default, I am more or less doing what you did. Running shorter distances until I can go longer. I just feel like I should be at a point where I can add a mile or two to my long runs each week. Maybe my calves disagree... I think part of me doesn't want to give up on the marathon in six weeks, but there is no way I am going to try it if I can't run past 12-13 miles. Greg |
| 2009-10-25 10:24 PM in reply to: #2478890 |
Extreme Veteran 417 Davidson | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles Gritty - 2009-10-25 10:45 PM Premature muscle fatigue? I saww in your log you suspect it that maybe you're running too fast for the distance. Other things you might try are hill training (not sure if you're already doing this) and light preventative stretching of the calf muscle. Gritty, I have too many hills around here, I am getting plenty of hill training. They aren't that long and most aren't too steep, but I definitely get enough hill work. Running too fast for these long runs could be the problem. I do have a hard time slowing down from a 9:30 pace 'cause there isn't much room to slow down from there unless I just go ahead and walk! I don't stretch at all before I run, but I do a moderate amount afterward. I used to stretch before, but I quite after reading a number of articles about that. Greg |
| 2009-10-25 10:41 PM in reply to: #2478850 |
Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles I used to have a bad problem with cramping. I started taking a calcium magnesium supplement and the problem went away. After a couple years I couldn't find that supplement anymore, so I switched to calcium, magnesium, zinc and it works just as well. I think the problem went away within a week or two after I started, but it was 6-7 years ago so I don't recall all the details. Just something else to consider along with some of the other suggestions. |
| 2009-10-25 10:52 PM in reply to: #2478960 |
Extreme Veteran 417 Davidson | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles Donskiman - 2009-10-25 11:41 PM I used to have a bad problem with cramping. I started taking a calcium magnesium supplement and the problem went away. After a couple years I couldn't find that supplement anymore, so I switched to calcium, magnesium, zinc and it works just as well. I think the problem went away within a week or two after I started, but it was 6-7 years ago so I don't recall all the details. Just something else to consider along with some of the other suggestions. Thanks, Don. I haven't looked into calcium before. I drink a large glass of milk every night with dinner, but I don't drink any before I run. Greg |
| 2009-10-25 10:54 PM in reply to: #2478932 |
Expert 721 Chenequa WI | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles trinewby - 2009-10-25 10:11 PM Yea, I am not convinced electrolytes play a role either any more. I have been down that road and it doesn't seem to be doing the trick. The study makes for interesting reading, but I would REALLY like to read Part III. I couldn't find a link for it on the web page. Do you know if they ever published it? Thanks, Greg Here you go. Scroll down to the series on Muscle cramps. There's 5 parts to it. As for stretching, its true that stretching before exercise can cause problems, especially if done indiscriminantly and too heavily. Lightly stretch your calves after a good warm up but before the main set. Also, lightly stretching a cramp during running can be effective. The emphasis is on light stretching and specific to the cramp. Good luck. I know what its like to be laid up for awhile. The only other thing I suggest is a good PT. They can help isolate imbalances that might be pre-disposing you to the cramps and could provide good exercises for the problem. |
| 2009-10-25 10:57 PM in reply to: #2478850 |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles When you do your calf strengthening routine, don't just do the standard weighted calf raises. You need to focus on eccentric contractions (i.e. bearing weight as your heel is coming down, not going up, and exercises that mimic the load your calves bear while running. The two that have worked the best for me are: eccentric calf raises: Stand with both toes on a step with one hand on the railing for balance. Push up with both toes, lower yourself with only one. Up with both, down with one. Do three sets of ten with both legs. Hopping drills: find or make a triangular pattern on the floor, with each point of hte triangle about 18" apart. Hop forward, back, and sideways in a random pattern for ten hops. Do the other side for ten, then the other. Do three sets of ten hops per leg. Find a small step--about 6-8" high. Hop up onto the step and then immediately back down onto the same foot. Concentrate on trying not to let your heel touch the ground, so you're absorbing all the weight with your calf. It helps to have a railing for balance, but be sure you aren't using it for support or to boost yourself up. Good luck! Calf injuries suck. Edited by jmk-brooklyn 2009-10-25 11:00 PM |
| 2009-10-25 11:19 PM in reply to: #2478969 |
Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles trinewby - 2009-10-25 9:52 PM Donskiman - 2009-10-25 11:41 PM I used to have a bad problem with cramping. I started taking a calcium magnesium supplement and the problem went away. After a couple years I couldn't find that supplement anymore, so I switched to calcium, magnesium, zinc and it works just as well. I think the problem went away within a week or two after I started, but it was 6-7 years ago so I don't recall all the details. Just something else to consider along with some of the other suggestions. Thanks, Don. I haven't looked into calcium before. I drink a large glass of milk every night with dinner, but I don't drink any before I run. Greg Not just calcium. The supplement is calcium and magnesium, or calcium, magnesium and zinc. |
| 2009-10-26 12:24 AM in reply to: #2478850 |
Elite 3072 san francisco | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles hi greg- |
| 2009-10-26 1:06 AM in reply to: #2478850 |
| Master 2460 | Subject: RE: Tell What I Am Doing Wrong - Can't Run Past 12 Miles I strongly agree with the opinion above that cramping actually has little to do with nutrition for the vast majority of racing (including marathon distance runs) and MUCH more with training and prolonged exertion past your physical capability at that moment. You will cramp regardless of the most optimal fueling and hydration if you go longer than your body's ability. It happens to thousands of marathoners in every race, who often show up with the full supply of GUs, salt tabs, hydration packs, etc. when they push themselves to the 26.2 distance. My suspicion is that you simply need more time to acclimate to the mileage. An 8 week rampup for a beginner distance runner is not long at all. Even though the plan you are following works for many people, this result is a sign from your body that you need to ramp up more slowly and over a longer period of time. On the bright side, I can guarantee to you that if you're running 8 miles no problem, you will likely be running 12 mile distances within another few weeks no problem if you maintain a similar or slightly decreased training load. |
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