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2009-11-25 6:53 AM
in reply to: #2529550

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime

TeddieMao -
I assume you are speaking of the 60's, the whole Sexual Revolution era?  This was also the era of the Civil Rights Movement.

At it's heart, the Civil Rights movement was and is about the question of what constitutes a just law.  In answering that question, the Civil Rights movement appealed to Natural Law in order to find legitimacy for it's claims.

From Martin Luther King's Letter From a Birmingham Jail:

One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."

Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of Harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust.

 

I think that these questions we're talking about in this thread need to be looked at in the context of what MLK pointed out, are they just laws and just acts in that they conform to the moral law. Do they uplift human personality, or degrade it.

If it is true that there seems to be a correlation between the shift over the past decades in the belief of what a correct sexual anthropology is and the rise of things such as Fatherlessness and it's fruits, then perhaps it is wise to consider whether a degradation has been taking place in the human personality.

 



Edited by dontracy 2009-11-25 7:04 AM


2009-11-25 7:37 AM
in reply to: #2527315

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Master
2946
200050010010010010025
Centennial, CO
Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime

Why should the blame be put on the father.  How many children in today's society grow up without a mom.  It's called latchkey kids.  Sure their mom may come  home at night, but the see their parents 2-3 hours a day at most.  In the 50's and 60's families could afford to have a parent stay at home.  An ave - good salary was $20-30,000 and a house cost roughly the same.  Now ave -good salary is 50 -150,000 and a house costs at least $200,000 (at least here in Colorado).  That has forced both parents into the workforce.  It just doesn't add up.

My wife was a dedicated teacher.  She loved her career and would have done it for the rest of her life.  Then we had our little girl, and she quickly and happily gave up her job as a teacher of other children to become the teacher of our little girl. 

You can see the diference between the kids in day care and the kids who are with their parents.  And even more so you can see the diference in the kids who can't afford day care and are missing their parents.

I guess I am saying that the family has been broken up by socio economic impacts that prevent the family unit from being one vs multiple individuals all focused on individual goals and ideals.

Fatherlessness is the effect of a father not being around.  This can happen even if there is no divorce.  The problem is People don't give the time to their kids, whether it is through abandonment or overwork or just plain selfishness of taking the limited free time we all have and spending it away from our children.

2009-11-25 7:45 AM
in reply to: #2530688

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Pro
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Houston
Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime
velocomp - 2009-11-25 7:37 AM

Why should the blame be put on the father.  How many children in today's society grow up without a mom.  It's called latchkey kids.  Sure their mom may come  home at night, but the see their parents 2-3 hours a day at most.  In the 50's and 60's families could afford to have a parent stay at home.  An ave - good salary was $20-30,000 and a house cost roughly the same.  Now ave -good salary is 50 -150,000 and a house costs at least $200,000 (at least here in Colorado).  That has forced both parents into the workforce.  It just doesn't add up.

My wife was a dedicated teacher.  She loved her career and would have done it for the rest of her life.  Then we had our little girl, and she quickly and happily gave up her job as a teacher of other children to become the teacher of our little girl. 

You can see the diference between the kids in day care and the kids who are with their parents.  And even more so you can see the diference in the kids who can't afford day care and are missing their parents.

I guess I am saying that the family has been broken up by socio economic impacts that prevent the family unit from being one vs multiple individuals all focused on individual goals and ideals.

Fatherlessness is the effect of a father not being around.  This can happen even if there is no divorce.  The problem is People don't give the time to their kids, whether it is through abandonment or overwork or just plain selfishness of taking the limited free time we all have and spending it away from our children.



I agree with what you are saying but Fathers can be stay at home parents too.
I have two friends who's husband stay home - one of them has 5 kids the other has two.  I know another couple that really does need two salaries so she works in the morning and he works second shift.  One of them is always there with their children and on the rare occasion that can't happen we have a wonderful group that takes over for them Mothering their children until one of their parents is available.  The youngest even has his pick of wet nurses.  Truly a village.

We have 5 children and our lives would be easier economically if I worked outside the home - 4 of the children are school age so we'd only be paying daycare for the 2 year old.  However, we make sacrifices so I can stay home.  We don't have new vehicles so no car payment, we live in a house we knew ahead of time we wouldn't need two incomes for and often times make the more difficult choice so I can stay home.
2009-11-25 8:02 AM
in reply to: #2527315

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Champion
14571
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the alamo city, Texas
Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime

I have read about half of the responses here, and if this has been covered I apologize.  But I think we are not looking at causation and correlation correctly.  Yes, in instances of crimimals and poorly adjusted humans, I would bet there is a high rate of fatherlessness/uninvolved parenting/etc.  But there are LOTS of folks on this board who grew up without a father, in daycares, that turned into moderately successful engineers and homeowners without getting pregnant at 15 or turning to drugs or crime.  There is certainly a strong CORRELATION between crime and absentee parents, but to say that moms that work or dads that leave CAUSE dysfunctional children is, frankly, insulting to me and many others that have chimed in here.

That is all, go on with your thread drift.

2009-11-25 8:36 AM
in reply to: #2530721

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Master
2006
2000
Portland, ME
Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime
meherczeg - 2009-11-25 8:02 AM

I have read about half of the responses here, and if this has been covered I apologize.  But I think we are not looking at causation and correlation correctly.  Yes, in instances of crimimals and poorly adjusted humans, I would bet there is a high rate of fatherlessness/uninvolved parenting/etc.  But there are LOTS of folks on this board who grew up without a father, in daycares, that turned into moderately successful engineers and homeowners without getting pregnant at 15 or turning to drugs or crime.  There is certainly a strong CORRELATION between crime and absentee parents, but to say that moms that work or dads that leave CAUSE dysfunctional children is, frankly, insulting to me and many others that have chimed in here.

That is all, go on with your thread drift.



Sure lots of people turn out fine growing up in single parent households. Some of them actually become President.

However, I think you would find it an exception rather than the rule to find mothers who would say raising children without a strong male role model was easy or ideal.
2009-11-25 9:09 AM
in reply to: #2530688

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Pro
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the Alabama part of Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime
velocomp - 2009-11-25 8:37 AM

Why should the blame be put on the father.  How many children in today's society grow up without a mom.  It's called latchkey kids.  Sure their mom may come  home at night, but the see their parents 2-3 hours a day at most.  In the 50's and 60's families could afford to have a parent stay at home.  An ave - good salary was $20-30,000 and a house cost roughly the same.  Now ave -good salary is 50 -150,000 and a house costs at least $200,000 (at least here in Colorado).  That has forced both parents into the workforce.  It just doesn't add up.

My wife was a dedicated teacher.  She loved her career and would have done it for the rest of her life.  Then we had our little girl, and she quickly and happily gave up her job as a teacher of other children to become the teacher of our little girl. 

You can see the diference between the kids in day care and the kids who are with their parents.  And even more so you can see the diference in the kids who can't afford day care and are missing their parents.

I guess I am saying that the family has been broken up by socio economic impacts that prevent the family unit from being one vs multiple individuals all focused on individual goals and ideals.

Fatherlessness is the effect of a father not being around.  This can happen even if there is no divorce.  The problem is People don't give the time to their kids, whether it is through abandonment or overwork or just plain selfishness of taking the limited free time we all have and spending it away from our children.



Being a latchkey kid is not automatically a problem.  I've highlighted thethe part that I think is especially relevant.  The  differences found between kids in day care and not are minimal, once the quality of the care is accounted for.  In fact, I might even argue the counter point - in very young children (3-4 year olds), they enter school more prepared in many cases, not only in terms of knowing their ABC's and numbers, but also (and this is the critical part) understanding how to "do school" - sitting in place, raising hands, waiting turns, etc.  Not to say that kids with a SAHM can't or don't learn these things, but if you start to look at a generalization, it cuts both ways.  And for the majority of kids, it evens out by 2 grade or so.

You've offered your experience; I'll offer mine.  Both mrs gearboy and I are docs.  We had one kid in med school and one in residency.  So they have had a lifetime of parents being around nights and weekends, but spending the day in school/daycares.  Even with that, they have turned out reasonably well adjusted, both were reading before kindergarden, both were involved in many after school activities, and both did very well academically (top 5% of their graduating classes). 

I remember after the oldest graduated talking to some of her friends - one had a SAHM, another had grown up with a nanny, and of course mine had done the daycare route.  All of them did well in all the areas one would hope for a child, and all had involved fathers (including the one whose parents were divorced).

Also, there are places with decent housing and good schools that are much cheaper than Colorado.  The Alabama part of PA, for example.  (Of course, then you have to live here, instead of there...)


2009-11-25 9:14 AM
in reply to: #2530792

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Champion
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the alamo city, Texas
Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime
Jackemy - 2009-11-25 9:36 AM
meherczeg - 2009-11-25 8:02 AM

I have read about half of the responses here, and if this has been covered I apologize.  But I think we are not looking at causation and correlation correctly.  Yes, in instances of crimimals and poorly adjusted humans, I would bet there is a high rate of fatherlessness/uninvolved parenting/etc.  But there are LOTS of folks on this board who grew up without a father, in daycares, that turned into moderately successful engineers and homeowners without getting pregnant at 15 or turning to drugs or crime.  There is certainly a strong CORRELATION between crime and absentee parents, but to say that moms that work or dads that leave CAUSE dysfunctional children is, frankly, insulting to me and many others that have chimed in here.

That is all, go on with your thread drift.



Sure lots of people turn out fine growing up in single parent households. Some of them actually become President.

However, I think you would find it an exception rather than the rule to find mothers who would say raising children without a strong male role model was easy or ideal.


the OP wasn't if being a single mom was tough, it was do fatherless homes turn out criminals.
2009-11-25 9:15 AM
in reply to: #2530792

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Veteran
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Elizabethtown, KY
Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime

Jackemy - 2009-11-25 9:36 AM
meherczeg - 2009-11-25 8:02 AM

I have read about half of the responses here, and if this has been covered I apologize.  But I think we are not looking at causation and correlation correctly.  Yes, in instances of crimimals and poorly adjusted humans, I would bet there is a high rate of fatherlessness/uninvolved parenting/etc.  But there are LOTS of folks on this board who grew up without a father, in daycares, that turned into moderately successful engineers and homeowners without getting pregnant at 15 or turning to drugs or crime.  There is certainly a strong CORRELATION between crime and absentee parents, but to say that moms that work or dads that leave CAUSE dysfunctional children is, frankly, insulting to me and many others that have chimed in here.

That is all, go on with your thread drift.



Sure lots of people turn out fine growing up in single parent households. Some of them actually become President.

However, I think you would find it an exception rather than the rule to find mothers who would say raising children without a strong male role model was easy or ideal.

Think of it this way - single parent households shift the bell curve of future success inwards towards less success.

Y'all remember bell curves, right?

 

 

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