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2009-12-13 1:58 PM

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Subject: No store in area-bike fit help
Hey gang, playing with my new webcam I've decided to take a look at my form on my bike, now that I've finally got it from the movers. I've always thought I was very un-aero in my position, but now it appears that I have proof.  I have lowered by bars as low as I can and raised my seat up a bit, but still can't get a flat back.  Am I missing something or is the flat back an unrealistic/unnecessary goal?  I have no shop to take the bike to out here to get a "proper" fit, so I could use some advice.  Will spend some time on the current setup tomorrow and see how it actually feels.
Have attached a video.  Hope it works.
[IMG]http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb127/runklem/th_softridetest.jpg[/IMG]


2009-12-14 12:14 AM
in reply to: #2556508

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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
I've seen a lot worse. Hopefully someone here will use their software to give you angles. The seat looks a touch high to my eye, but that's just a guess for the office pool. I think your aero profile is pretty decent as it is.

  
2009-12-14 9:50 AM
in reply to: #2556508

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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
Looks like your toes are reaching down when you are all the way extended. I.e. seat's too high.

But then again, I'm not a fitter.

Edited by mmrocker13 2009-12-14 9:50 AM
2009-12-14 10:56 AM
in reply to: #2556508

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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
A still shot is more helpful for drawing in angles.  One that is dead side-on, and where your entire foot can be seen, would be good.  It's hard to tell exactly when the crank is at the bottom of the pedal stroke (or if you prefer, in line with the seat tube).  Overall (and note that I'm certainly not a professional fitter!) it looks pretty good.  It isn't obvious to me that your seat is too high.  I attempted to sketch in a couple of angles (hard to do for reasons mentioned above) and the angle looks about right.
2009-12-14 12:40 PM
in reply to: #2557377

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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
mmrocker13 - 2009-12-14 6:50 PM Looks like your toes are reaching down when you are all the way extended. I.e. seat's too high.

But then again, I'm not a fitter.


Thanks for comments, folks.  And yes my toes probably are pointed down.  Its a habit I haven't broken yet (years of kicking as a diver).  This video was the 9th one I took after fiddling with things.  Regardless of seat height, my toes tended to point, I just didn't fully extend my leg with a lower seat.  As for capturing a still, I'll have to see if there is a timer feature on the webcam for a shot.  I'm flying solo out here and I'd have to actually try and talk to a real person to take the photo...who needs that?
2009-12-14 12:46 PM
in reply to: #2557981

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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
mikerunkle - 2009-12-14 1:40 PM
mmrocker13 - 2009-12-14 6:50 PM Looks like your toes are reaching down when you are all the way extended. I.e. seat's too high.

But then again, I'm not a fitter.


Thanks for comments, folks.  And yes my toes probably are pointed down.  Its a habit I haven't broken yet (years of kicking as a diver).  This video was the 9th one I took after fiddling with things.  Regardless of seat height, my toes tended to point, I just didn't fully extend my leg with a lower seat.  As for capturing a still, I'll have to see if there is a timer feature on the webcam for a shot.  I'm flying solo out here and I'd have to actually try and talk to a real person to take the photo...who needs that?


You could try pedaling nice and slow (but naturally) for the (video) camera, then grab a still shot from the video.  (The slow pedaling is to eliminate as much blur as possible.  It doesn't have to be super-slow.)  If you post a video like that and can't grab a still from it, I'll be happy to do that for you.  Just make sure that we can see the cranks and your entire foot!



2009-12-14 8:00 PM
in reply to: #2556508


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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
 I looked at the video a few times and here are a few suggestions to consider. Because of your general back shape flexibility range, you will never have a truly flat back so don't worry too much about that. You do want to try to achieve a 1" drop from your shoulder pivot point up toward the point where your Lat muscle ends on your ribcage side.  This forms a natural wing that will pull air off your chest and over the hips. Your seat height is way to high, I would start by lowering it 30 - 40 mm and then lower your handle bars an equal amount.  Because of a couple of things, [A] Softride bike which allows the rider to move a lot more than standard bikes, it is easy to develope an over extended pedaling style. Because of the design of the seat you use, it's easy to pedal off the front of the bike seat which requires that you lift yourself on each pedal stroke. Softrides are great, your seat is good, it's just a combination that can cuse a bad pedal stroke. Work on Hamstring flexibility and better ankling technique. A key to helping you get the seat adjusted better is to assess the weight on your elbows and shoulders.  If you are holding yourself up with the aero bars, which I believe you are, misery and discomfort will soon follow. Ultimately and of course depending on the distance you plan to race, your bars will still be too high. I would try for an additional 20 -30mm drop for the bars, flatten the hand position a little more.
2009-12-14 9:01 PM
in reply to: #2558825

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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
JohnCobb - 2009-12-14 9:00 PM  I looked at the video a few times and here are a few suggestions to consider. Because of your general back shape flexibility range, you will never have a truly flat back so don't worry too much about that. You do want to try to achieve a 1" drop from your shoulder pivot point up toward the point where your Lat muscle ends on your ribcage side.  This forms a natural wing that will pull air off your chest and over the hips. Your seat height is way to high, I would start by lowering it 30 - 40 mm and then lower your handle bars an equal amount.  Because of a couple of things, [A] Softride bike which allows the rider to move a lot more than standard bikes, it is easy to develope an over extended pedaling style. Because of the design of the seat you use, it's easy to pedal off the front of the bike seat which requires that you lift yourself on each pedal stroke. Softrides are great, your seat is good, it's just a combination that can cuse a bad pedal stroke. Work on Hamstring flexibility and better ankling technique. A key to helping you get the seat adjusted better is to assess the weight on your elbows and shoulders.  If you are holding yourself up with the aero bars, which I believe you are, misery and discomfort will soon follow. Ultimately and of course depending on the distance you plan to race, your bars will still be too high. I would try for an additional 20 -30mm drop for the bars, flatten the hand position a little more.


In case any of the BT peeps were wondering, John is on of THE premier cycling dudes in the world. Whatever is up ^^^ there is awesome stuff for aerodynamics and fit. Check out www.cobbcycling.com to see some of his body of work, and no, I'm not affiliated. Just a fan.  

John, great to have you on BT. Glad you're here, and thanks for contributing.
2009-12-14 9:32 PM
in reply to: #2558905

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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
rkreuser - 2009-12-14 9:01 PM

JohnCobb - 2009-12-14 9:00 PM  I looked at the video a few times and here are a few suggestions to consider. Because of your general back shape flexibility range, you will never have a truly flat back so don't worry too much about that. You do want to try to achieve a 1" drop from your shoulder pivot point up toward the point where your Lat muscle ends on your ribcage side.  This forms a natural wing that will pull air off your chest and over the hips. Your seat height is way to high, I would start by lowering it 30 - 40 mm and then lower your handle bars an equal amount.  Because of a couple of things, [A] Softride bike which allows the rider to move a lot more than standard bikes, it is easy to develope an over extended pedaling style. Because of the design of the seat you use, it's easy to pedal off the front of the bike seat which requires that you lift yourself on each pedal stroke. Softrides are great, your seat is good, it's just a combination that can cuse a bad pedal stroke. Work on Hamstring flexibility and better ankling technique. A key to helping you get the seat adjusted better is to assess the weight on your elbows and shoulders.  If you are holding yourself up with the aero bars, which I believe you are, misery and discomfort will soon follow. Ultimately and of course depending on the distance you plan to race, your bars will still be too high. I would try for an additional 20 -30mm drop for the bars, flatten the hand position a little more.


In case any of the BT peeps were wondering, John is on of THE premier cycling dudes in the world. Whatever is up ^^^ there is awesome stuff for aerodynamics and fit. Check out www.cobbcycling.com to see some of his body of work, and no, I'm not affiliated. Just a fan.  

John, great to have you on BT. Glad you're here, and thanks for contributing.


X2. John Cobb is the man. Thanks for contributing. I missed him when he was in Lafayette!! He was here helping out after the local bike shop owner crashed his bike.

Edited by Cajuntriguy 2009-12-14 9:34 PM
2009-12-14 9:56 PM
in reply to: #2556508

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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
I predict by 11:00 PM EST tomorrow there will be 813 photos of BT'ers in the aero position looking for a critique. One may be mine.

   Crikey, mates, BT has hit the bigtime when Mr. Cobb shows up. My dream ride is the Wiler Cento1 Crono that he designed. About the nicest TT bike in the world. I wonder if he'd be happy about a 40m 20k guy riding one? Yeah, that's what I thought.    
2009-12-14 10:06 PM
in reply to: #2558974


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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
Y'all are very kind, I've been lurking here on and off but I want to help when I think I can. I'll try to post a little more regularly. Sometimes my answers may sound a little hardcore but as we all race for a few years, it's easy to forget just how intimidating a triathlon and all this gear can be for a newer racer.


2009-12-14 10:12 PM
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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
John, in Mike's original post he said he had already lowered the bars as much as he could. I have never been on a softride before, so I have no idea if he has any other options with the bike. When he lowers that seat, he's going to lose much of the aero shape he has.   
2009-12-14 10:42 PM
in reply to: #2558993


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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
He looks to be using a +6-8 degree A-Head style stem about 100mm long with 20mm of spacers under it.  Softrides are usually 1" steerer tubes.  It will be no problem to go much lower. Ritchey and a couple of others offer negative 30 degree stems that will more than do it.  His concern will be neck issues but a lot of that will go away when he lowers the seat height. I also suspect that the OP needs to learn better pelvic rotation which will really help the neck and shoulders  but is currently impossible because of the seat height.
2009-12-14 11:01 PM
in reply to: #2556508

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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
OK Mike, now run out and buy a lottery ticket. Or post on a cooking forum "How do I make the perfect Bearnaise sauce?"I betcha Julia Childs responds.




Here's Fab Fabian- toes are pointed down here as part of his ankling technique, so toes down is proper at some points of the revolution. Here's more on what John is talking about...

 http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2009/05/efficiency-of-pedal-stroke-ankling/



Edited by blairrob 2009-12-14 11:22 PM
2009-12-15 12:50 AM
in reply to: #2559037

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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
JohnCobb - 2009-12-15 7:42 AM He looks to be using a +6-8 degree A-Head style stem about 100mm long with 20mm of spacers under it.  Softrides are usually 1" steerer tubes.  It will be no problem to go much lower. Ritchey and a couple of others offer negative 30 degree stems that will more than do it.  His concern will be neck issues but a lot of that will go away when he lowers the seat height. I also suspect that the OP needs to learn better pelvic rotation which will really help the neck and shoulders  but is currently impossible because of the seat height.


John,
 Appreciate the advice.  The threadless stem adapter is as low as I can get (hits the fork threads regardless of spacers in or out) but will look for a 30 degree stem as mentioned above.  Question on lowering saddle back down though, I was under the impression that full or near full leg extension is desired.  If I go back down, don't I compromise this? On my other videos I had what I considered to be quite a bit of leg bend on the downward stroke hence the reason I kept raising the saddle. (maybe if I can stop pointing my toes, it'd help)
As for feel in this position, after a 45 min ride on the trainer I definately felt like I had more weight on the arms and in fact felt like the aerobars needed to be further forward (or my butt further back).  
Thanks
Mike
2009-12-15 2:05 AM
in reply to: #2559104

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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
mikerunkle - 2009-12-15 2:50 AMI was under the impression that full or near full leg extension is desired.  If I go back down, don't I compromise this?
Mike


No- full extension is definitely too much, and 'near full' is a matter of interpretation. Here's Fabian again. Take a look at other vids- Kona riders, etc. and you'll find some good perspectives. If you are hips are a rocking you're too high.
  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqyyNrOIatU

and
http://www.bikenow.com.au/u-fit/saddle_height.htm


2009-12-15 6:41 AM
in reply to: #2559116

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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
Excellent info.  Thanks.  Found steeper stem on Trisports and it is enroute.  Will drop the seat back down a bit and work what I can while waiting for stem.  Will post new pics/vid once thats all in for those who are willing to continue to help.
Thanks again.  I love this site.....
2009-12-15 6:51 AM
in reply to: #2559167

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Subject: RE: No store in area-bike fit help
cheers Mike. Have some good rides!
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