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STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! (Page 2)
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 2010-01-19 7:14 PM in reply to: #2622595 |
Elite 2608    Denver, Colorado |  Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS!famelec - 2010-01-19 3:55 PM Due to the way you are forced to run with them (not land on your heel) most people struggle to run a mile in them at first and have to build mileage incredibly slowly. I'm no sports medicine expert, but IMO, this is the ONLY reason why the research has shown that running barefoot or with so-called "minimalist shoes" (so-called because, as can be seen with the VFFs, the price can be about the same as a pair of regular running shoes). They force you to avoid landing on your heel, so the force is absorbed not by the knee, which did not evolve to aborb such forces, but by the Achilles tendon and calf muscles, which did evolve to absorb such forces. The same result can be achieved by making sure that your foot lands underneath you even if you are a heel-striker (meant to avoid opening up the whole heel-striking can of worms). Barefoot running is a fad that has already had it's 15 minutes. VFFs are silly-looking and expensive. Keep your running shoes but learn to run properly. |
| 2010-01-19 8:44 PM in reply to: #2622595 |
 Master 1324 Rochester, NY | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! famelec - 2010-01-19 4:55 PM LeahDD - 2010-01-19 3:44 PM Ridgelake - 2010-01-19 12:37 PM I personally have found them useful because: 1) I'm at least 40 seconds per mile faster in them than my "regular" running shoes. and 2) After several years of foot problems and trying all kinds of motion control, stability, custom orthotics, off-shelf orthotics, strassberg socks, rollers, you-name-it, my feet are happy to go for a run. But as they say, YMMV. I had no interest in these until now. I didn't know that I could gain 40 seconds per mile. That's good enough for me - no matter the cost (and what do they cost, anyway?). Are they sold at regular running shoe stores? They may be magical for some people, but don't plan being faster anytime soon because of the VFFs. Due to the way you are forced to run with them (not land on your heel) most people struggle to run a mile in them at first and have to build mileage incredibly slowly. After a couple of months I'm not running more than 3 miles at a time in them and not more than 3x per week; when I replace them with my running shoes to complete my runs I'm always a bit faster with the running shoes! Brian Yes, I have had to build up very slowly. After 6 months of regular use, I'm still only at a long run of about 5 miles. And my calves/achilles are sore for a couple of days after doing so. And yes, my run form has changed significantly. To landing on my forefoot, with feet under me, from a heel-striker and roll forward. I can feel my achilles acting like a spring, returning energy from each foot strike. They are not for everyone. Very few things are. But they've been graet for me. And I don't plan on going back to regular running shoes. |
| 2010-01-19 9:31 PM in reply to: #2622899 |
Veteran 288 | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! MikeTheBear - 2010-01-19 8:14 PM I'm no sports medicine expert, but IMO, this is the ONLY reason why the research has shown that running barefoot or with so-called "minimalist shoes" (so-called because, as can be seen with the VFFs, the price can be about the same as a pair of regular running shoes). They force you to avoid landing on your heel, so the force is absorbed not by the knee, which did not evolve to aborb such forces, but by the Achilles tendon and calf muscles, which did evolve to absorb such forces. The same result can be achieved by making sure that your foot lands underneath you even if you are a heel-striker (meant to avoid opening up the whole heel-striking can of worms). Barefoot running is a fad that has already had it's 15 minutes. VFFs are silly-looking and expensive. Keep your running shoes but learn to run properly. I agree its about running with good form keeping your foot landing under your body. I know its a lot easier keeping my foot landing under my body by running with shoes with no heel lift like the Vibrams. I know some runners can do that with the running shoes that have heel lift but thats very annoying for me...it just way easier to run with good form with thin flat shoes or no shoes so why bother with the regular running shoes. So why the heel lift in a running shoe if your landing is under your body? You know of any regular running shoes without heel lift ? Edited by rockrunner 2010-01-19 9:32 PM |
| 2010-01-19 11:13 PM in reply to: #2621506 |
Expert 1138 Texas (Houston area) | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! Ottmar Liebert, a guitarist that I really enjoy, wrote about these in his online diary back in 2007, though I'm sure they were a different model than what is being talked about here. Here is the link in case anyone is interested: http://www.ottmarliebert.com/diary/?p=2964 |
| 2010-01-19 11:36 PM in reply to: #2621506 |
Master 2665 The Whites, New Hampshire | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! Eh, you don't like it, don't do it. What "it" may be. This coming from someone who refuses to plunk down $85 (at least for now...but tax season is coming!) to do what I can do for free, although I'm nursing some gnarly blisters from going about three minutes too long barefoot on the treddie today. Eh, my feet'll be tougher come summer, and hopefully I'll still be running and not plagued by the same boom-bust cycle I've been on for years now. As for the merits of barefoot running, I also wrote it off as a fad. I gave all the reasons why it was dumb. Then I realized, "How do I know what I'm talking about?" So I tried it, just so I could PROVE I was right. Still in the trial phase, but so far I like it. So how about before banning a book you've never read - essentially the same thing - you give it a try so you know WHY you are dismissing it? But yeah, don't run in VFFs. Reduce demand, people!  |
| 2010-01-20 12:46 AM in reply to: #2623173 |
| Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! rockrunner - 2010-01-19 9:31 PM MikeTheBear - 2010-01-19 8:14 PM I'm no sports medicine expert, but IMO, this is the ONLY reason why the research has shown that running barefoot or with so-called "minimalist shoes" (so-called because, as can be seen with the VFFs, the price can be about the same as a pair of regular running shoes). They force you to avoid landing on your heel, so the force is absorbed not by the knee, which did not evolve to aborb such forces, but by the Achilles tendon and calf muscles, which did evolve to absorb such forces. The same result can be achieved by making sure that your foot lands underneath you even if you are a heel-striker (meant to avoid opening up the whole heel-striking can of worms). Barefoot running is a fad that has already had it's 15 minutes. VFFs are silly-looking and expensive. Keep your running shoes but learn to run properly. I agree its about running with good form keeping your foot landing under your body. I know its a lot easier keeping my foot landing under my body by running with shoes with no heel lift like the Vibrams. I know some runners can do that with the running shoes that have heel lift but thats very annoying for me...it just way easier to run with good form with thin flat shoes or no shoes so why bother with the regular running shoes. So why the heel lift in a running shoe if your landing is under your body? You know of any regular running shoes without heel lift ? I don't, but the heel lift doesn't bother me. Spend some time learning the Pose method or Chi Running, or perhaps look at both because they are similar, they only present the method somewhat differently. I know people will ask, "Why not just run barefoot and save money on shoes?" Well, first off, running barefoot for me is not an option. I need something to protect my feet. I think most minimalist running enthusiasts would agree that something to protect the feet is important. So, I need some type of shoe or covering on my feet. What are my options for minimalist shoes? Vibram Five Fingers - the cheapest pair is $70. Not exactly cheap. Dopie Sandals - these cost $50. To add insult to injury, it's just a piece of rubber with a strap. Please. Nike Free - Last I checked these were also $50, but they are probably more by now. Converse Chuck Taylors - A piece of rubber and canvas with laces will cost about $45. If I wait for the right sales, I can get a decent pair of running shoes for $50, and if I spend $70 I can get what I consider to be a very good pair. So this whole "why buy expensive running shoes" is a big red herring because the options aren't any cheaper at all. Sure, I suppose I could run in a pair of flip flops or those aqua shoes, which I've seen go for as low as $10 at Wal-Mart. But for me, I like the comfort and safety of a running shoe. It is worth it to me to spend $40 to $50 to buy a good pair of running shoes versus a pair of flip flops. And once you compare running shoes with the minimalist alternatives such as the Vibrams or the Dopie sandals, price is simply not an issue. Plus, once I retire a running shoe from running, I can still wear them to run on the treadmill where foot protection and impact are not such big issues. I can also wear them as every day shoes. I live in Colorado - hiking boots and running shoes are perfectly acceptable to wear as "casual" shoes, but Five Fingers and Dopies sandals not so much. Yes, I get my money's worth out of a pair of running shoes. I have done a bit of reading on this topic as exercise science interests me. I have read anything to convince me that running barefoot or in minimalist shoes is better. Most, if not all, of the benefits of injury prevention can be attributed to forcing a runner not to strike with the heel. If you need the minimalist shoes to force correct technique, that's fine - I get it, it's very hard to change a technique that you've used for many years. I think that Romanov, who developed the Pose method, even recommends Nike Frees as the preferred shoes, but I'm not 100% sure on that. But understand that it's the running technique that's giving you the benefit, not the shoes. |
| 2010-01-20 3:39 AM in reply to: #2621506 |
Veteran 345 Chesapeake, VA | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! Gotta say, regardless of what I might read tomorrow about barefoot running or that its just the latest fad that has almost run its course (no pun intended), I really enjoy my VFF. I had to "start over" with my running after having my achilles bolted back on, so I was/am willing to try out anything that offers pain free, injury reducing effects, in fact I think I read somewhere that the sun god Ra was good for injury healing, so I gotta run outside and sacrifice a goat in a sec, so I'll keep this short....The VFF have been great. I love the theory. So far, I'm enjoying the benefits of getting back on the road. Maybe its all in my head, but I'm ok with that. I also don't mind the looks I get from people wondering about my crazy shoes (wear them all the time now), but I just like being different like that. I just wish the price hadn't jumped so much, since I do wear them all the time, I'm going to need a 2nd or 3rd so I can rotate them. As for a "running version", where did anyone see this? How can you modify this shoe so its running specific? I mean, its a rubber sole with a mesh top.. What could you possibly change to make it the "runner" style????..and how much are they going to jack that price up??  |
| 2010-01-20 6:53 AM in reply to: #2623173 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! rockrunner - 2010-01-19 11:31 PM You know of any regular running shoes without heel lift ? Most flats will have very little heel lift and there are many brands that have lightweight trainers that are similar. I have been running in Adizeros for a couple of season (RC's for racing and Breeze and Bostons for training) and have no complaints. BTW - you can usually find Adizeros for less than $50  Shane Edited by gsmacleod 2010-01-20 6:54 AM |
| 2010-01-20 7:21 AM in reply to: #2621506 |
Extreme Veteran 425 | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! First, $70 for a good pair of running shoes? Where? All of the "good" pairs of shoes I see run at least $100 and that is on sale. Secondly, I am seriously considering throwing that $100 on VFFs but I don't know that I can give myself 6 months to work up to long runs. My training plan has 8 milers coming up and then in the next few months 12-14 milers. My right knee bothers me now but after 10 minutes or so of warming up it is ok (afterwards it is ice, ice, ice). Should I just wait until after my IM to try these? |
| 2010-01-20 7:26 AM in reply to: #2623452 |
Pro 4353 Wallingford, PA | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! gsmacleod - 2010-01-20 7:53 AM rockrunner - 2010-01-19 11:31 PM You know of any regular running shoes without heel lift ? Most flats will have very little heel lift and there are many brands that have lightweight trainers that are similar. I have been running in Adizeros for a couple of season (RC's for racing and Breeze and Bostons for training) and have no complaints. BTW - you can usually find Adizeros for less than $50 Shane x2 on the Adizeros... that's what I'm running in rught now, and I've been very happy with them (but I am also experimenting with some pure barefoot running, but I'm in the very early stages of the experiment - still < 2 miles for barefoot runs.) |
| 2010-01-20 8:59 AM in reply to: #2623490 |
Expert 762 San Antonio, TX | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! dewcubs - 2010-01-20 7:21 AM First, $70 for a good pair of running shoes? Where? All of the "good" pairs of shoes I see run at least $100 and that is on sale. Secondly, I am seriously considering throwing that $100 on VFFs but I don't know that I can give myself 6 months to work up to long runs. My training plan has 8 milers coming up and then in the next few months 12-14 milers. My right knee bothers me now but after 10 minutes or so of warming up it is ok (afterwards it is ice, ice, ice). Should I just wait until after my IM to try these? Another injured runner here willing to try barefoot on soccer fields and ultimately VFF's just because I can. I am not a heal striker and have had my run looked at multiple times as well as had X rays, MRI's and Bonescans and the doc's have no idea what is wrong so I figure I don't have anything to loose. As for your question on the VFF's and the Ironman...if your not injured now and your run form is healthy then stick with your regular shoes till later. If you have the cash to get the VFF's get them and just walk around in them until later.
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| 2010-01-20 11:25 AM in reply to: #2621506 |
Pro 3883 Woodstock,GA | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! All I have to say about running barefoot/Vibrams/any other minimalist shoe is BE CAREFUL! If you should decided to go with this approach I highly encourage a gradual build up of time and distance. Start out with maybe 5 minutes at and go from there gradually increasing time as your body allows. Barefoot running is great but just like anything too much too soon and you are risking injury. |
| 2010-01-20 4:17 PM in reply to: #2622544 |
Expert 1121 Chicago | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! trishie - 2010-01-19 3:23 PM mikerunkle - 2010-01-19 10:48 AM You're driving the price up!!!!!! This darned supply and demand free market economy!!! They are nearly double what I paid for my first pair 6 months ago. STOP IT! This sport/hobby is expensive enough as it is!!!!!!!! I wish I was as cool as you and started wearing these before they became popular seriously, it's like when I was into ska and was told "oh, you can't REALLY like band x because you didn't see them play in orange county in someone's backyard 6 years ago" Trishie, coincidentally, I started toying with the idea of getting them about 6 months ago after I read "Born to Run", on your excellent recommendation. Further coincidence, I just got my first pair today after mulling it over and seeing all the positive feedback from various sources for the last months. Further coincidence, I like ska too. Unrelated to ska, It did bum me out on some level (a long time ago) when U2 started filling stadiums and getting payed on the top 40 stations. I was happy for them though, so I guess I'm happy for Virbam too. To the OP, I'm not sure what you got six months ago or what you paid, but I started watching prices then, and, by my observation, the change in price to today has been approximately zero (give or take). |
| 2010-01-20 4:48 PM in reply to: #2621506 |
Expert 1690 | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! my only question is can you wear them with compression socks? Edited by mkarr0110 2010-01-20 4:49 PM |
| 2010-01-20 5:10 PM in reply to: #2624956 |
Pro 5169 Burbs | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! Ershk - 2010-01-20 5:17 PM trishie - 2010-01-19 3:23 PM mikerunkle - 2010-01-19 10:48 AM You're driving the price up!!!!!! This darned supply and demand free market economy!!! They are nearly double what I paid for my first pair 6 months ago. STOP IT! This sport/hobby is expensive enough as it is!!!!!!!! I wish I was as cool as you and started wearing these before they became popular seriously, it's like when I was into ska and was told "oh, you can't REALLY like band x because you didn't see them play in orange county in someone's backyard 6 years ago" Trishie, coincidentally, I started toying with the idea of getting them about 6 months ago after I read "Born to Run", on your excellent recommendation. Further coincidence, I just got my first pair today after mulling it over and seeing all the positive feedback from various sources for the last months. Further coincidence, I like ska too. Unrelated to ska, It did bum me out on some level (a long time ago) when U2 started filling stadiums and getting payed on the top 40 stations. I was happy for them though, so I guess I'm happy for Virbam too. To the OP, I'm not sure what you got six months ago or what you paid, but I started watching prices then, and, by my observation, the change in price to today has been approximately zero (give or take). Ha that's pretty funny ! |
| 2010-01-20 5:19 PM in reply to: #2625005 |
Elite 3235 San Diego | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! mkarr0110 - 2010-01-20 2:48 PM my only question is can you wear them with compression socks? I wear mine with my compression socks and Newton shoes...just say'n
Oh, I like ska too |
| 2010-03-24 12:58 PM in reply to: #2621506 |
Elite 3471 Evergreen, CO | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! So these non-shoes that we're not talking about - Which style to get? REI has Sprint, KSO, Classic, Performa & Flow in women's sizes. Anyone have a preference? |
| 2010-03-24 1:12 PM in reply to: #2621506 |
Expert 770 Long Island, NY | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! I wear mine at home all the time and love them. Really very comfortable. I do not run in them at all because I have not had a running "injury" in the twenty years I've worn Asics. Apparently, my mechanics are fine so why would I change now? I was lucky enough early on to have a track coach who was on the US Olympic team and preached form like nobody I've ever known. Listening to (what I thought at the time was) that looney has, I'm sure, saved me from many a running injury. Thank you, Coach Westerfield.
The real reason I have them is that while I was checking them out online, my wife looked over my shoulder and said "Those are the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. Who would wear those?" Naturally, the answer would then have to be me. Damn, does she hate them and comments EVERY time I don them. However, I do respect her wishes enough to not wear them outside of our quarter-acre paradise... Edited by thelunchbox 2010-03-24 1:15 PM |
| 2010-03-24 1:37 PM in reply to: #2622427 |
Master 1366 PNW | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! Ridgelake - 2010-01-19 12:37 PM 2) After several years of foot problems and trying all kinds of motion control, stability, custom orthotics, off-shelf orthotics, strassberg socks, rollers, you-name-it, my feet are happy to go for a run. This. I would not even be considering a tri at all had it not been for barefoot/VFF running. Prior to learning to run barefoot, I could not run AT ALL without pain. It took me months to work my way up to only 1/2 mile barefoot runs. I still run my longer runs in shoes but the barefooting has made it possible and pain-free. |
| 2010-03-24 1:45 PM in reply to: #2623490 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! dewcubs - 2010-01-20 5:21 AM First, $70 for a good pair of running shoes? Where? All of the "good" pairs of shoes I see run at least $100 and that is on sale. Secondly, I am seriously considering throwing that $100 on VFFs but I don't know that I can give myself 6 months to work up to long runs. My training plan has 8 milers coming up and then in the next few months 12-14 milers. My right knee bothers me now but after 10 minutes or so of warming up it is ok (afterwards it is ice, ice, ice). Should I just wait until after my IM to try these? You aren't shopping hard enough. Just bought a closeout pair of my favorite shoes (Brooks Adrenaline 9) for under $50. |
| 2010-03-24 5:44 PM in reply to: #2621506 |
Regular 316 | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! Got a pair of Classics mid-Dec 09; haven't touched my conventional running shoes since. Finished a half-Mary end of Feb. 10. Don't see much likelihood of running in conventional running shoes again. Develop the odd blister infrequently and right calf feels that it's been worked out hard after the 5+ milers the next day; BUT how I feel during the run is PHENOMENAL!!!!! Just my .02 |
| 2010-03-24 5:50 PM in reply to: #2746348 |
Expert 1456 Central New Jersey | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! I got a pair of Flow's in Feb and am running again injury free (first time in months). Ran 9 on Sunday then walked the dog 3. Only thing I see myself running in. |
| 2010-03-24 7:40 PM in reply to: #2621506 |
Expert 798 Kewaunee, WI | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! I have been plagued by injury after injury. I just got my body parts all healed with some help from a kinesiologist. Bought some Newtons, compression socks, and was taught how to run with a new chi/pose gait. I will never go back to power running again. Light midfoot stepping all the way for me. |
| 2010-03-24 9:00 PM in reply to: #2621506 |
Veteran 163 Newburgh, Indiana | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! mikerunkle - 2010-01-19 9:48 AM You're driving the price up!!!!!! This darned supply and demand free market economy!!! They are nearly double what I paid for my first pair 6 months ago. STOP IT! This sport/hobby is expensive enough as it is!!!!!!!! I've not owned a pair of "five-fingers" so I won't say anything negative about them HOWEVER, if you don't wish to pay the price for a pair of these high-demand items, go to your local swim shop and get you a pair of $19 Speedo wave walker shoes to try out. Been running in mine since last Oct. and they show no signs of wear. Just dirty is all. The ones I run in are black and I think they actually say womens wave walkers but they fit fine. Here is a pic. Just Google speedo wave walker and you'll find lots of retailers.  FYI - Little easier starting out on turf & trails with these guys, then easing into running on pavement. Edited by jeffw85 2010-03-24 9:01 PM |
| 2010-03-24 9:05 PM in reply to: #2622551 |
Elite 2791 Denver | Subject: RE: STOP TALKING ABOUT VIBRAM FIVE FINGERS! Sprint_DA - 2010-01-19 3:27 PM trishie - 2010-01-19 3:23 PM mikerunkle - 2010-01-19 10:48 AM You're driving the price up!!!!!! This darned supply and demand free market economy!!! They are nearly double what I paid for my first pair 6 months ago. STOP IT! This sport/hobby is expensive enough as it is!!!!!!!! I wish I was as cool as you and started wearing these before they became popular seriously, it's like when I was into ska and was told "oh, you can't REALLY like band x because you didn't see them play in orange county in someone's backyard 6 years ago" I miss ska.
Dude. Ska was/is the bomb-diggity.
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