General Discussion Triathlon Talk » First Marathon will be during my first IM Rss Feed  
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2010-02-05 12:25 PM

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Elite
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Subject: First Marathon will be during my first IM
Any advice?I was going to do the Snickers Marathon in Albany, GA this coming March, but injured my ITB and didn't get over the injury until late December 09. I decided that I wasn't going to try and run a marathon on 2 months of training, for risk of getting hurt/overdoing it again.

I'll be following the intermediate BT IM plan to get me to IMKY. The longest run for that plan will be a 2hr 40min run. What do you guys/gals think?

BTW, there are no marathons in Atlanta (that I know of) in May-July, so that is out of the question. I think the last one is the ING Marathon (end of March). I could run one on my own, but we know how that goes...you never push yourself as hard as you do during a race...especially for that long a training run. Also, racing a marthon during IM training is probably a bad idea due to recovery?

I'd love to see what you have to say...

Thanks!

Edited by tri_d00d 2010-02-05 12:27 PM


2010-02-05 12:29 PM
in reply to: #2657242

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Not a Coach
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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
You won't be the first to do it that way.  Many disagree or don't believe it but, IMO, running a marathon and doing the IM run leg are nothing alike (other than the distance covered, of course).  Follow the training, pace yourself, and you will be fine.
2010-02-05 12:52 PM
in reply to: #2657242

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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
I posted in the other thread, but I'll add here. My longest run was 20 miles, and I am not sure it did me much good other than to get to the "i've only got a 10K left" point. But during the race? I don't think it did much for me. If and when I do another IM, I will probably run no longer than 18 miles. I am slow anyway, so that's still around 3 hours, so maybe not even that much.

I don't think an IM beforehand is necessary or sometimes even smart, unless you are experienced at that distance (especially with ITB issues). Plus, as you say racing a marathon (pushing yourself harder than a training run) is not such a great idea either, in my non coaching experience. You will lose at least 2 weeks I'd think of time, plus you aren't going to be racing that IM mary unless your bryancd or pseudoyams or..... You're going to be surviving it

in my not so vast experience, there's simply nothing you can do in training that can recreate how an IM mary feels once it gets hard
2010-02-05 2:13 PM
in reply to: #2657242

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Champion
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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
No point to my replying honestly on this topic...
2010-02-05 2:17 PM
in reply to: #2657465

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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
tcovert - 2010-02-05 12:13 PM

No point to my replying honestly on this topic...


Why not?
2010-02-05 3:02 PM
in reply to: #2657242

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Elite
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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
Running a marathon prior to doing an IM went a long way in helping me to understand how much it takes to run an IM marathon.  So it helped me to know how hard I could go with what I had left and what those last 6 miles were going to be like.  I could identify what was happening to my legs, that this was familiar teritory and that once I got to mile 20 I knew I had enough left in the tank to finish it running.  I was able to do a gradual build from miles 20 to 23 and then kick the last 3.2 miles.  If I hadn't done a mary first, I would have probably had less confidence in my pacing come IM mary time, especially those last 6 miles.  Ya you don't need to do it, but it helped me.  My 1 case example.  


2010-02-05 3:31 PM
in reply to: #2657242

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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
I did a marathon approx. 18 weeks prior to IM just to see if my chronically injured knee would hold up at that distance (it did).  While it gave me one less thing to worry about on race day, I think I lost something in recovery and building up again.  In retrospect I think doing a marathon was at best neutral, at worst a mistake.
2010-02-05 4:01 PM
in reply to: #2657242

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Master
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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
Lots of people do it this way, myself included at IMKY last year.  I did three long runs leading up to it, each about 2 hrs; my IM run was 3:27.  As others have said, the IM run felt nothing like a long training run.

The biggest difficulty for me on the IM run was struggling with pain in my quads.  I doubt running a marathon would have helped much with that.
2010-02-05 4:38 PM
in reply to: #2657465

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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
tcovert - 2010-02-05 1:13 PM No point to my replying honestly on this topic...


It would be better than replying dishonestly.....

As for me personnally, I did IMFL with my long run being 20 miles over 3 hrs.  Race weekend, I had really wished I had done a stand alone marathon, just one of those second guessing things in my mind.  I held back on the bike because I did not know what my body would do in a marathon.  I probably could have ridden a little bit harder and been fine. 

That said,  coming off the ITB, in my uninformed/uneducated opinion, you would be better off just focusing on your plan for KY.

Edited by peto_primo 2010-02-05 4:40 PM
2010-02-05 5:18 PM
in reply to: #2657242

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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM

With your ITB issue, bag the marathon.  No need to do it, especially with an injury issue.  It could set you back much further in your IM build for KY.

I knew I was going to do an IM distance in 2010, so I did a trail marathon at the end of 2009 which is really a different beast then a nice road marathon.  But either way I was glad I did it and the relentless hills laughed at me as they chewed me up.  There is no way I would've done an early season marathon in 2010, I needed to assure I got my tri training in for 140.6 miles and I think doing an early season marathon would've harmed me more then helped me. 

And think about it whats your goal for 2010, nailing a marathon or the IM.  I know what my choice would be.

Good luck with your recovery.

 

 



Edited by rottieguy 2010-02-05 5:22 PM
2010-02-05 5:24 PM
in reply to: #2657242

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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
D00D don't sweat it too much.  I would suspect a majority of Ironman finishers run their first marathon that day.  For me, I have two IM finishes and ONLY two 26.2 mile runs ever.  I think I peaked at 2h 20m run which I seem to think was around 16-17 miles for me. 

As mentioned my another poster, running a stand alone mary is completely different than the IM marathon.  If you just have some basic goals of finishing and maybe a modest time goal then you really don't have anything to worry about.


2010-02-05 5:53 PM
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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM

I "followed" the Intermediate plan for IMCdA and the long runs were fine.  I did a lot of extra running prior to and early in the training program because I did a 50-mile trail run 10 weeks prior to IMCdA.  I'd say the ultra did a lot more to simulate the late-in-the-day-"running" that most IM finishers (at least most of us 13+ hour finishers) than a stand-alone marathon would.  I signed up to work on the mental fortutude to keep moving forward 10-11 hours into a race day.  I took a week off running after the ultra with some riding (trainer) and swimming.  Even 2-3 weeks later, I could still feel some fatigue in my legs from the run (no real speed on the bike and not much gas to power up hills), but I think it worked for me. 

Now I did go into the ultra ready to DNF if I felt continuing would jeopardize IMCdA training.  (Risks included tendonitis/inflamation, a fatigue related fall or strain, and blisters.  None of which happened.

2010-02-05 7:48 PM
in reply to: #2657242

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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM

A standalone marathon and the Ironman marathon are on two different planets with almost no relation to each other. Thousands of successful Ironman athletes have never run a marathon (raises hand, 7x IM finisher, would rather chew glass than run a marathon). A marathon does not punch your IM ticket.

There are other significant scheduling considerations as well regarding the insertion of a marathon into a triathlon training schedule.

Here is blog post with videos of my partner and I discussing a marathon in the off-season, but the scheduling considerations are the same, and even more serious, for any triathlete thinking of doing a marathon after about...January.

In short, don't do it.

2010-02-06 1:07 PM
in reply to: #2657242

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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
The first time i will run 26.2 miles will be on June 27, 2010.
I am following the Be Iron Fit Intermediate plan and the longest run is 3hours. Which for my pace means my longest run will be around 15-16 miles. All I/we can do is follow our plans.
2010-02-06 7:36 PM
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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
So.. if your body has issues with running far.... go with the amount of running that makes sense for you to be able to nail the IM run (no mary).  If runnng is fun and you use a mary to help you go run focused during the offseason and you have 6 months between mary and IM... go for it.  It is a personal choice, therefor no right answer.  Just how much fun you want ot have doing whatever you want to do in your training and racing.
2010-02-06 8:07 PM
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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM

As many of the folks above have stated a stand alone Marathon and an IM Marathon are two totally different animals. I have coached many first time IMers (100% Finisher rate ) and maybe 1/3 had done a Marathon prior to their IM races.

Aerobic fitness is aerobic fitness and it doesn't matter where you build it for it to be effective. A long run of 2-2.5 hours max is plenty and that is more for conditioning the joints and connective tissues to accept a pounding for that long rather than building run fitness. Just keep in mind the longer you run the more you are exposing yourself to injury.

As a side note, don't go crazy with the brick workouts either. Most people mistakenly think that bricks are what help you run better off the bike. Not true! Bricks are more to test your nutritional and pacing strategies on the bike. If you pace the bike correctly and  have a sound nutritional plan then running off the bike is a function of your run fitness after the jello legs go away.

 



2010-02-08 12:34 AM
in reply to: #2659230

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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
Rocket Man - 2010-02-06 6:07 PM

As a side note, don't go crazy with the brick workouts either. Most people mistakenly think that bricks are what help you run better off the bike. Not true! Bricks are more to test your nutritional and pacing strategies on the bike. If you pace the bike correctly and  have a sound nutritional plan then running off the bike is a function of your run fitness after the jello legs go away.

 



Agree with everything you said except the part above, because I do think bricks are quite useful in IM training.

I think bricks are great for learning pacing strategies on the bike. If you hit it too hard on the bike (which many people do), then the IM run will suck. Bricks help you know what "saving it for the run" really means. Bad pacing on the bike is what does in many IM runs. In fact, it's become so common it seems like in some circles it's considered a viable IM race plan to hammer the bike and then run/walk the run. I'm not of fan of that.

I think bricks are good for learning how to run after a long bike. This is mostly mental, somewhat physical. It's a transition that must be experienced. If you've never done say 56 mile ride followed by a 13 mile run, then how will you know what "normal" feels like? I've ran a few open marathons and my body feels quite a bit different in those races than during the IM runs I've done. With judicious use of bricks, there are no "jello legs" at the start of the run.

I think bricks are only somewhat useful for nutrition strategies. Most bricks are too short for nutrition to come into play in any significant way, and few people do a brick preceeded by an 80 minute swim (because that would be a race, wouldn't it)? I never have experienced nutrition issues in single-sport training or during bricks or even during a half IM. So nutrition in bricks doesn't seem to do much for me. YMMV.

Note there was a recent series of threads here and on SlowTwitch about bricks, generated from an article discussing how to "nail the IM run". Interesting content that generated a lot of debate.

Edited by brucemorgan 2010-02-08 12:36 AM
2010-02-08 8:38 AM
in reply to: #2660553

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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM

brucemorgan - 2010-02-08 1:34 AM
Rocket Man - 2010-02-06 6:07 PM

As a side note, don't go crazy with the brick workouts either. Most people mistakenly think that bricks are what help you run better off the bike. Not true! Bricks are more to test your nutritional and pacing strategies on the bike. If you pace the bike correctly and  have a sound nutritional plan then running off the bike is a function of your run fitness after the jello legs go away.

 

Agree with everything you said except the part above, because I do think bricks are quite useful in IM training. I think bricks are great for learning pacing strategies on the bike. If you hit it too hard on the bike (which many people do), then the IM run will suck. Bricks help you know what "saving it for the run" really means. Bad pacing on the bike is what does in many IM runs. In fact, it's become so common it seems like in some circles it's considered a viable IM race plan to hammer the bike and then run/walk the run. I'm not of fan of that. I think bricks are good for learning how to run after a long bike. This is mostly mental, somewhat physical. It's a transition that must be experienced. If you've never done say 56 mile ride followed by a 13 mile run, then how will you know what "normal" feels like? I've ran a few open marathons and my body feels quite a bit different in those races than during the IM runs I've done. With judicious use of bricks, there are no "jello legs" at the start of the run. I think bricks are only somewhat useful for nutrition strategies. Most bricks are too short for nutrition to come into play in any significant way, and few people do a brick preceeded by an 80 minute swim (because that would be a race, wouldn't it)? I never have experienced nutrition issues in single-sport training or during bricks or even during a half IM. So nutrition in bricks doesn't seem to do much for me. YMMV. Note there was a recent series of threads here and on SlowTwitch about bricks, generated from an article discussing how to "nail the IM run". Interesting content that generated a lot of debate.

We are  going to have to just agree to disagree on this one

A 56 mile bike followed by a 13 mile run in training is completely uneccessary. Again with proper run training the longest brick that you should do is a 50 mile bike at race pace followed by at most 8 miles (I usually don't go over 6) at AeT.

As far as IM bricks go......every single one of my athletes do a 5 hour bike/1 hour run brick at their race rehersal a couple of times during the final peak phase before the taper. After being on the bike for 5 hours using the nurtitional product of  your choice and the getting off and running an hour at goal pace you are going to find out pretty quickly if that nutrition is sitting well and if you paced the bike correctly.

People put way too much stock in bricks for long course racing. Short course is another animal because you only have 5k or 10k to get your legs going and get up to speed. For HIM and IM races it doesn't really matter if your first mile is slower while you get your legs under you and get you HR to settle in, there are 12 or 25 miles respectively to make up for any under paceing the first few miles.

Consider  yourself fortunate to not have experienced any nutritional issues, I find that is the biggest reason for poor performance over long course racing.

2010-02-08 12:02 PM
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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
Rocket Man - 2010-02-08 6:38 AM

Consider  yourself fortunate to not have experienced any nutritional issues, I find that is the biggest reason for poor performance over long course racing.



Yep, we're going to have to disagree but only to a degree.

And oh yeah, I've had nutritional issues in IM. Out of six IMs, two have had moderate nutrition issues (as in, I really want to puke nausea but not quite there yet, and the other was bad dehydration), two have had minor issues (ketosis in one and mild nausea in the other), and in two I've been fine.

No nutrition issues in training except after swimming, none in bricks. I've done plenty of those 5 hour bike / 1 hour run and never had any issues. My nutrition issues show up at mile 80 on the bike and dog me into the run. I think it's actually eating too soon and too late on the bike so at IM Cozumel I didn't eat anything for the first hour on the bike or the last hour before the run, sort of a bell curve on my nutrition. It worked great. No nausea on the bike or the run, and no ketosis or dehydration.
2010-02-09 12:40 AM
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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
IMAZ was my first marathon. Nutrition, hydration, and the biker were the only things that I did right, as defined by no problems and actually having fun. Run was ok until mile 10 when leg muscle strength disappeared. Cardio was still good as was nutrition and hydration. I leaned forward and did all I could to increasde foot turnover speed, but by that time my legs only had three speeds: stop, walk, and shuffle. I chose option three and was glad to finish.

I did not do any long bricks (100 on the bike, 15+mile run) in training to build late race stage leg muscle endurance. For the next one, my training goal will be to get comfortable with those long bricks and do as many as the schedule will allow.
2010-02-09 6:59 AM
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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
banzai - 2010-02-09 12:40 AM

I did not do any long bricks (100 on the bike, 15+mile run) in training to build late race stage leg muscle endurance. For the next one, my training goal will be to get comfortable with those long bricks and do as many as the schedule will allow.


But that's not what a brick does. This is why Bricks are over used and misunderstood. Bricks do not "Make you a better runner off the bike". They are just some extra run mileage for your week. That is all. Your problem isn't that you didn't do enough bricks, it was weither you rode too hard or, more likely, your run fitness wasn't enough. A 100 mile bike followed by a 15 mile run is a TERRIBLE idea. Do a 100 mile ride and the next day do a QUALITY 15 mile run. Much better.


2010-02-09 8:02 AM
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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM

banzai - 2010-02-09 1:40 AM IMAZ was my first marathon. Nutrition, hydration, and the biker were the only things that I did right, as defined by no problems and actually having fun. Run was ok until mile 10 when leg muscle strength disappeared. Cardio was still good as was nutrition and hydration. I leaned forward and did all I could to increasde foot turnover speed, but by that time my legs only had three speeds: stop, walk, and shuffle. I chose option three and was glad to finish. I did not do any long bricks (100 on the bike, 15+mile run) in training to build late race stage leg muscle endurance. For the next one, my training goal will be to get comfortable with those long bricks and do as many as the schedule will allow.

 

I agree with Brian on this one....this is a terrible idea. You are going to end up injured or worse, not to mention that every time you do one of these "Super Bricks" the recovery is going to punch a huge hole in  your training plan. You just don't go out and do a huge workout like that and go back to regular training the next day or even the next week.

The key to a good run off the bike at the IM or HIM distance is pacing and nutrition coupled with good run fitness. If you are doing quality long runs and you proper learn to pace the bike by either HR or Power and your nutrition is sound I can almost guarantee a good run off the bike. It is that simple and that hard all at the same time.

 

2010-02-09 9:58 AM
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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
bryancd - 2010-02-09 7:59 AM
Do a 100 mile ride and the next day do a QUALITY 15 mile run. Much better.


Or wait a few days before the quality 15 mile run. 
2010-02-10 2:40 PM
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2010-02-12 12:47 AM
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Subject: RE: First Marathon will be during my first IM
"run" your first marathon? pfft.
Better integrate walking training into your running.

Serious.
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