General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP Rss Feed  
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2010-02-28 7:56 PM

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Subject: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
In simple terms, can anyone tell me why i would not use my MMP for 60 mins as my FTP?

My understanding, rudimentary as it is, is that my 20 min or 40 min power test is an approximation of my best 60 min effort on a tt. A related question is why would I not use MMP for certain markers on long rides as it varies with time and is constantly updatable.

And why is my MMP60 significantly < my FTP?

Edited by phatknot 2010-02-28 7:57 PM


2010-03-01 9:12 AM
in reply to: #2698690

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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
How often do you put forth a max 60min effort in your training?  MMP is just taking your actual power files and looking for the max average power for different durations over some time frame.  If you regularly put out max efforts at those durations, then it should be useable as you are thinking.  But, as is more likely, you probably don't do many 60min TTs and your MMP60 significantly understates FTP.  So you are left with other ways to estimate your FTP.
2010-03-01 12:01 PM
in reply to: #2699467

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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
JohnnyKay - 2010-03-01 11:12 AM

How often do you put forth a max 60min effort in your training?  MMP is just taking your actual power files and looking for the max average power for different durations over some time frame.  If you regularly put out max efforts at those durations, then it should be useable as you are thinking.  But, as is more likely, you probably don't do many 60min TTs and your MMP60 significantly understates FTP.  So you are left with other ways to estimate your FTP.


x2 - the only way you should use your MMP60 as FTP is if you have done a 1 hour all out TT (~40km).  Since many athletes do not have the desire to do regular 1 hour TT's, instead we use different methods to predict FTP.

Shane
2010-03-02 6:20 PM
in reply to: #2699967

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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
thanks for your input guys. would the mmp60 be what the ftp data point is the estimate of?
2010-03-03 9:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
phatknot - 2010-03-02 7:20 PM thanks for your input guys. would the mmp60 be what the ftp data point is the estimate of?


The mmp60 is simply the highest average power you have ridden at for 60 minutes (over whatever time frame your mmp chart is drawing data from).  It doesn not necessarily have any correlation to ftp unless you ride a maximal efforts over the time periods you are looking at (e.g., 40k tt racing).  I rarely ever look at my graph but, if I do, I am more interested in the range between ~5min and 20min where I will do more maximal effort work across different workouts.
2010-03-03 9:58 AM
in reply to: #2698690

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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
Harvey,

Those 3 are all approximations of a 1 hr "theoretical" power you can hold for 60 minutes.  I say theoretical unless you have actually done a 60 min power test.

They are all valid and very useful and will give you about the same number in the end.  It's about the testing protocal to get there.

2 x 20' or 5' all out and 20' all out, etc.  Don't get your panties in a bunch over a watt here or there.  It's about consistancy in the model you use.


2010-03-03 10:36 AM
in reply to: #2704530

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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
im not getting my panties in a bunch. i wear compression underwear. but thats not what the topic is about.

my mmp60 was way off my ftp (280 to 312) and thats what struck me as weird.

ok so the mmp 60 is the same as a 60" all out effort if you go all out for your mmp60. it could and probably will be a race day effort. and the other tests/numbers are all estimates of that best effort so they have more error involved. thus your  most valid data point for 60 mins or 120 or 180 for that matter is your mmp provided you hauled for that timeframe.

where I am going with this is, why not try to beat your mmp60/120/180 avg watts on your harder longer training rides? train fast to race fast right? not saying the ftp estimate wont help you improve your speed using that to base intervals zones off of, but wondering if beating your race day efforts on your longer rides would be the most valid way of showing you improved your real-life speed.

Edited by phatknot 2010-03-03 10:38 AM
2010-03-03 10:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
phatknot - 2010-03-03 11:36 AM im not getting my panties in a bunch. i wear compression underwear. but thats not what the topic is about.

ok so the mmp 60 is the same as a 60" all out effort if you go all out for your mmp60. it could and probably will be a race day effort. and the other tests/numbers are all estimates of that best effort so they have more error involved. thus your  most valid data point for 60 mins or 120 or 180 for that matter is your mmp provided you hauled for that timeframe.

where I am going with this is, why not try to beat your mmp60/120/180 avg watts on your harder longer training rides? train fast to race fast right? not saying the ftp estimate wont help you improve your speed using that to base intervals zones off of, but wondering if beating your race day efforts on your longer rides would be the most valid way of showing you improved your real-life speed.


The best measure of performance is performance.  So, yes, your likely "most valid" estimate of your FTP is your best 60min TT effort (and I say likely because there is a chance that you "booger" your TT and don't get a poor estimate of your "true" ability, meaning you have to come back and do it again or rely on some other estimate).

FTP is a useful benchmark, because performances across a range of durations correlate reasonably well with it.  So, I know (with a reasonable degree of confidence) that if my FTP has gone up, so has my ability to put out power over 2 or 3 or 4 hours as long as I do enough specific training for those durations.  But, if you really want to know what you can do over x distance or y minutes, then you go out and do it.

And, if you want to see if you can do this week's 3 hour ride harder than you did last week's 3 hour ride, then you can aim for that as well.  I guarantee it will provide some valuable training.  Of course, if it digs you a hole that you can't recover from before your next sessions it may not be additive to your entire program.  The goal of training is to race fast, not to train fast.  (Though some of the latter will be useful in getting at the former.)
2010-03-03 11:12 AM
in reply to: #2704711

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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
Thanks JohnnyKay. Thats pretty much what Shanks said. There is a cost to training to MMP60/120/180 that has to be factored into recovery. How much a cost vs how much a benefit is what I am not sure about. Likwise, I wonder why my ftp and my mmp60 were so discrepant. It makes me wonder if my ftp is an overestimate due to the statistical error involved. If so, then my ftp is set too high.

fyi-my mmp60 was only 246 not 280 and my ftp estimate off the 20' test was 312.

Edited by phatknot 2010-03-03 11:26 AM
2010-03-03 11:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP


fyi-my mmp60 was only 246 not 280 and my ftp estimate off the 20' test was 312.


I've never yet done a 40k TT and have never come close to trying it in training.  So I am sure that my mmp60 is well below my FT estimate as well (never really looked).

How did you get to your FTP estimate from the 20' test?  I have gone well over 320 (maybe 330?) for 20', but my est. FT was closer to your number at that time.  Either by doing 2 x 20' or using a CP protocol to utilize a max 20' & a max 5' test.
2010-03-03 11:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
i first did a 20,2,20 then, on down the line, i did a couple of tests using the 20' protocol. then ftp was that total * .95.


2010-03-03 7:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
phatknot - 2010-03-03 12:36 PM

where I am going with this is, why not try to beat your mmp60/120/180 avg watts on your harder longer training rides? train fast to race fast right? not saying the ftp estimate wont help you improve your speed using that to base intervals zones off of, but wondering if beating your race day efforts on your longer rides would be the most valid way of showing you improved your real-life speed.


Do you mean why not try to go out and have an MMP60 equal or higher than your FTP on a regular basis?  While you could certainly try this, the recovery cost is likely going to be too high and there are more efficient ways to attempt to raise your FTP.

The same as you don't become a great 5k runner by hammer 5k's every training session, you aren't going to maximize your gains justing trying to set new trianing PB's on the bike.

Shane
2010-03-04 12:42 PM
in reply to: #2698690

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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
good point Shane. I think I am getting it now.

Let me just make it simple for myself and see if you agree:

Train fast to race fast, but don't train so hard that it causes you to lose training time. Go hard on hard days and easy on easy days. TIme in the saddle is important but not as important as pace in the saddle.

The MMP, CP, and FTP, like hr and pace, are tools to help you know how fast/hard you are going and useful for cycling accountability in terms of the various types of rides.
2010-03-05 7:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
You definitely don't want to lose training time due to a workout - if you are following a sensible plan then you should find that after a hard effort you have an easier day (or two) to recover before the next hard workout.  If you are unable to do the easier workouts, then you are going too hard on the hard efforts.  The key to training effect is duration and intensity and manipulating these will allow you to have harder or easier efforts.

FTP is not so much a tool as a measure of your max one hour pace; however, this provides insight into whether or not you are riding hard or easy as training levels can be determined from your FTP.  Afterwards you can look at your MMPs and see what you did in a particular ride for the different durations.  Depending on the goal of the ride, you could be interested in different MMPs (for example, if you were doing 5 minute VO2max intervals, you would be interested in looking at your MMP for 5 minutes but your longer durations would likely not have much meaning).

Shane
2010-03-05 8:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP

phatknot - 2010-03-03 10:36 AM im not getting my panties in a bunch. i wear compression underwear. but thats not what the topic is about.

my mmp60 was way off my ftp (280 to 312) and thats what struck me as weird.

ok so the mmp 60 is the same as a 60" all out effort if you go all out for your mmp60. it could and probably will be a race day effort. and the other tests/numbers are all estimates of that best effort so they have more error involved. thus your  most valid data point for 60 mins or 120 or 180 for that matter is your mmp provided you hauled for that timeframe.

“The best predictor for performance is performance itself” A. Coggan

That means if you want to know what your 60 minute maximal power or 60MP (aka functional power threshold - FTP) just go out there and ride as hard as you can for 60 min. Short of that you can estimate what you  ‘could’ do based on shorter maximal efforts.

FTP – the maximal effort you can sustain for 1 hr
MMP – is the maximal power output you can sustain for a given duration
Critical Power – is a Monod’s model based on anaerobic and aerobic energy systems used to predict your 60 minute power (and not what Friel suggests which is incorrect. i.e. ride 30 min and call it your 30CP, in fact that’s your 30MP. It sounds like nitpicking but it isn’t)

Due to misinformation or misunderstanding of coaches and athletes FTP has become synonym of performing short tests such as 20 min max power and taking 95% or 2x20 min with 2 min spin of that and calling it FTP when in fact is just an estimate of what your FTP could be. Sometimes we coaches use it interchangeably and we shouldn't as we create confusion. (I am guilty of this!)

Anyway, since many athletes lack the motivation, mental strength, location, experience or time to perform a 60 min all out test then the use of alternatives to estimate your FTP or CP are great sessions which can provide important information not only about FTP/CP but also address other important athlete’s strengths and weaknesses (i.e. high FTP but low power at VO2 max

phatknot - 2010-03-03 10:36
where I am going with this is, why not try to beat your mmp60/120/180 avg watts on your harder longer training rides? train fast to race fast right? not saying the ftp estimate wont help you improve your speed using that to base intervals zones off of, but wondering if beating your race day efforts on your longer rides would be the most valid way of showing you improved your real-life speed.

Periodization – setting a plan with a progression from general to specific training.
Specificity – training the specific racing needs for your main event
Performance – anytime you beat a previous best that’s improvement; using a power meter allows you to know whether the improvement is a result of increase in fitness or was just a result of good conditions (i.e. riding TT with a tailwind)

Of course it is important to address the specific needs of your main event but it is also important to address your weaknesses as an endurance athlete. That means devote part of your general preparation phase improving in the areas you are weak (i.e. low FTP) which will not only allow you to improve on other aspects (i.e. going the distance faster) but also it can be use to estimate potential.

If you mix up your training and address non-specific training during the general preparation phase and then switch gears to target the particular needs for your main event during the specific preparation phase you’ general training fitness both cardiovascular and metabolic will be better which = better performance.

You can choose any path to increase your FTP/CP (or 60MMP); you can either “push” it from below (doing steady state, tempo or dub FTP sets, long rides etc.) you can choose to “pull” from above doing FTP, 20MP or VO2 max sets or you can choose a “mix” including both. Personally I think athletes in general will benefit from the latter but you always have to consider your particular needs and goals.

FYI – I’ve been helping an athlete with his cycling power; he is an Ironman addict and has raced long distance for the past 5 years chasing his KQ goals. He was all about training long, limit FTP and VO2 max training (following Allen/Friel approaches) and just ride lots for hours.

He is was strong cyclist (4.2 w/kg) but I was certain he had potential to become even stronger if we addressed his weaknesses. I had him on a diet of 20MP and FTP sets from December to end of Feb plus a long ride in the weekend. On 12 weeks he increased his FTP to 4.5 w/kg and now he is beating guys who used to smoke him on TT and still his ability to produce sustainable power hasn’t been affect at all, in fact it has increased. He is riding 10-20 watts higher of what he could last year on long rides on 4+ hrs at the same RPE.

2010-03-06 4:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
Jorge
May I thank you for taking the time to write this! This is thorough. You are an asset to the BT community and my brain.
Thanks man


2010-03-14 10:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
I think Jorge gave a very thorough account of the subject. The only thing I would add is that Allen/Coggan book on power was great, but Dr. Skiba's book was even more eye opening for a triathlete. Highly recommend both.
I also would like to emphasize testing vs. mmp data as testing seems the best alternative to eye popping , gut puking 60min TT. Pick a method and stick with it. I started with Dr. Skiba's 3min and 20min test using Monod Critical Power curve for the estimate. Just seems easy enough, yet valid and repeatable. I do 3min VO2max intervals anyway, inserting one all out is no extra recovery. I do weekly 2x20min(5min) Z4, well I can also insert the first effort at all out and record 3min/20min into RaceDay and get an estimate. Allen's 5min/20min, 95% estimate is equally good, I just have hard time doing two all out efforts so close to each other as I want to throw up during each.
With WKO+ and RaceDay you can cherry pick your best efforts foe estimates including looking at mmp curve, but it is more likely to be off compared to testing for the reasons Johny Kay gave very well.
You got some quality responses here. Very solid learning thread.  
2010-03-14 4:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Mean Maximal Power vs CP vs FTP
Jorge gave us another great insight into the Power Training theory but I don't get yet the difference here.
If we build the FTP 60mins estimation from 5mins/20mins test, as per Jorge blog equations, then I end up with CP60=FTP, while CP90 something below, let's say 5% less.
Now, when I open Friel book, or Virtual Coach from Training Peaks or Fitzgerald training plans or similar, they call often for 40-60mins CP60, referred as Tempo. For me, Tempo is Zone 3, as well as for Jorge, Coggan and many others. If you call for 40-60mins CP60 meaning FTP level, I can go to the hospital for such an effort on my trainer. I need days to recover from such an effort. As well as when they call for CP30 works which is very close to my 20mins test.
While, if I look to my WKO+ critical power curve, the CP60, CP90, etc. don't match with my FTP and all the game is affordable for me, 40-60mins CP60 would be than doable, not easy, but doable.

This is the point I would like to have clarified from you, experts Wink
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