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2010-04-07 7:17 AM
in reply to: #2768430

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
If you are a dog owner who is willing to break the law by letting your dogs off lead (when there are leash laws) you are a person I don't trust to have trained those dogs properly.

I call the police EVERY time I see it here in Chicago. For my kids safety, my leashed (can't run away) Pugs (can't defend themselves) safety, for my safety, for YOUR dog's safety, and for cleanliness sake...I never see owners of unleashed dogs running over to pick up the turd on the other side of the park left behind by their little darlings.

But I always say something to the owners first and without exception, they always react like I'm the A-hole. Maybe I am but I'm not the A-hole getting bit.


2010-04-07 9:06 AM
in reply to: #2773172

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
quincyf - 2010-04-07 7:17 AM

If you are a dog owner who is willing to break the law by letting your dogs off lead (when there are leash laws) you are a person I don't trust to have trained those dogs properly.

I call the police EVERY time I see it here in Chicago. For my kids safety, my leashed (can't run away) Pugs (can't defend themselves) safety, for my safety, for YOUR dog's safety, and for cleanliness sake...I never see owners of unleashed dogs running over to pick up the turd on the other side of the park left behind by their little darlings.

But I always say something to the owners first and without exception, they always react like I'm the A-hole. Maybe I am but I'm not the A-hole getting bit.


So you never knowingly break the posted speed limit?

2010-04-07 9:12 AM
in reply to: #2773477

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
graceful_dave - 2010-04-07 9:06 AM
quincyf - 2010-04-07 7:17 AM If you are a dog owner who is willing to break the law by letting your dogs off lead (when there are leash laws) you are a person I don't trust to have trained those dogs properly. I call the police EVERY time I see it here in Chicago. For my kids safety, my leashed (can't run away) Pugs (can't defend themselves) safety, for my safety, for YOUR dog's safety, and for cleanliness sake...I never see owners of unleashed dogs running over to pick up the turd on the other side of the park left behind by their little darlings. But I always say something to the owners first and without exception, they always react like I'm the A-hole. Maybe I am but I'm not the A-hole getting bit.
So you never knowingly break the posted speed limit?

Fixed?
2010-04-07 9:54 AM
in reply to: #2772936

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
CitySky - 2010-04-06 11:15 PM
SpottedCow - 2010-04-06 11:15 PM The short answer to the original question is:

1) Unless the park is a designated off-leash dog park, leash your dog

2) If you don't want to leash your dog, find a fenced off-leash dog park

3) Leashes save lives (regardless of how well-behaved you think your dog is) - If you don't agree, spend some time at your local veterinary emergency hospital


I wish it were this easy.  For dogs who have fear aggression when approached by other dogs, the dog park isn't an option either.


It really is this easy... as long as everyone follows the rules.  Dogs that have fear-based aggression when approached by other dogs shouldn't go to the dog park.  That's a no-brainer. They can easily be leashed walked in public spaces as long as everyone else follows the rules and leashes their own dogs - which prevents said fearful dog from being approached by another strange off-leash dog.

The answer is - leash your dogs (unless you're walking in a designated off-leash area)
2010-04-07 11:16 AM
in reply to: #2773703

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
SpottedCow - 2010-04-07 9:54 AM

CitySky - 2010-04-06 11:15 PM
SpottedCow - 2010-04-06 11:15 PM The short answer to the original question is:

1) Unless the park is a designated off-leash dog park, leash your dog

2) If you don't want to leash your dog, find a fenced off-leash dog park

3) Leashes save lives (regardless of how well-behaved you think your dog is) - If you don't agree, spend some time at your local veterinary emergency hospital


I wish it were this easy.  For dogs who have fear aggression when approached by other dogs, the dog park isn't an option either.


It really is this easy... as long as everyone follows the rules.  Dogs that have fear-based aggression when approached by other dogs shouldn't go to the dog park.  That's a no-brainer. They can easily be leashed walked in public spaces as long as everyone else follows the rules and leashes their own dogs - which prevents said fearful dog from being approached by another strange off-leash dog.

The answer is - leash your dogs (unless you're walking in a designated off-leash area)


Just to reiterate, unleashed does not equal uncontrolled. My dog, even unleashed, is not allowed to approach another dog without my releasing her from either my heel or a sitting position. Just because she is not on a leash does not mean she is free to run up to strange dogs, or free to go gallivanting where ever she pleases.

Dogs that run up to your leashed dog are uncontrolled and I agree that is a very bad thing.
2010-04-07 11:28 AM
in reply to: #2773477

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash

graceful_dave - 2010-04-07 7:06 AM
quincyf - 2010-04-07 7:17 AM If you are a dog owner who is willing to break the law by letting your dogs off lead (when there are leash laws) you are a person I don't trust to have trained those dogs properly. I call the police EVERY time I see it here in Chicago. For my kids safety, my leashed (can't run away) Pugs (can't defend themselves) safety, for my safety, for YOUR dog's safety, and for cleanliness sake...I never see owners of unleashed dogs running over to pick up the turd on the other side of the park left behind by their little darlings. But I always say something to the owners first and without exception, they always react like I'm the A-hole. Maybe I am but I'm not the A-hole getting bit.
So you never knowingly break the posted speed limit?

I would be interested to see the regulation/ordinance regarding the leash law in your community/city.



2010-04-07 11:31 AM
in reply to: #2773477

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash

graceful_dave - 2010-04-07 7:06 AM
quincyf - 2010-04-07 7:17 AM If you are a dog owner who is willing to break the law by letting your dogs off lead (when there are leash laws) you are a person I don't trust to have trained those dogs properly. I call the police EVERY time I see it here in Chicago. For my kids safety, my leashed (can't run away) Pugs (can't defend themselves) safety, for my safety, for YOUR dog's safety, and for cleanliness sake...I never see owners of unleashed dogs running over to pick up the turd on the other side of the park left behind by their little darlings. But I always say something to the owners first and without exception, they always react like I'm the A-hole. Maybe I am but I'm not the A-hole getting bit.
So you never knowingly break the posted speed limit?

If others can pick and choose which law to obey, I and others can pick and choose which laws we are going to be sticklers about.

Good Post Quicny and thanks for your effort in making a safer community!!!!!!!!!

2010-04-07 11:35 AM
in reply to: #2774037

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
crusevegas - 2010-04-07 11:28 AM

graceful_dave - 2010-04-07 7:06 AM
quincyf - 2010-04-07 7:17 AM If you are a dog owner who is willing to break the law by letting your dogs off lead (when there are leash laws) you are a person I don't trust to have trained those dogs properly. I call the police EVERY time I see it here in Chicago. For my kids safety, my leashed (can't run away) Pugs (can't defend themselves) safety, for my safety, for YOUR dog's safety, and for cleanliness sake...I never see owners of unleashed dogs running over to pick up the turd on the other side of the park left behind by their little darlings. But I always say something to the owners first and without exception, they always react like I'm the A-hole. Maybe I am but I'm not the A-hole getting bit.
So you never knowingly break the posted speed limit?

I would be interested to see the regulation/ordinance regarding the leash law in your community/city.




See section 3-2(b). Until someone tells me that a remote training collar like those used for hunting dogs does not qualify as "other means" I feel I am within the law.

Neenah, WI Municipal Code.

Sec. 3-2. Animals not to run at large.
(a) Definitions. The following words, terms and phrases, when used in this section, shall have the meanings ascribed to them in this subsection, except where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:
At large means off the premises of the owner or custodian of the animal and not under the immediate control of the owner or custodian.
Owner means any person owning, keeping or harboring an animal.
(b) Permitting an animal or fowl to run at large. No person shall permit an animal or fowl to run at large in the City at any time. Each owner of any such animal shall confine it within the limits of his premises except when it is attended by a person and, in such cases, such animal shall be under the control of that person attending it by leash or other means.
2010-04-07 11:45 AM
in reply to: #2768430

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Alpharetta, Georgia
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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
I am not against having a well-trained dog off-leash on an scarcely populated trail or something like that.

However, I'm not sure why you would ever take the chance in a populated area/trail/park? It would only take ONE instance of the dog deciding to be agressive toward another dog, or god forbid, a small child. Even if it was playful, a dog of any size can knock down a small child and cause injury or worse. Personally I would never take that chance, no matter how well-trained my dog was. Even the most well-trained dogs can have an unpredictable episode. Just ask the one that chewed up my face when I was a kid.

 


2010-04-07 11:53 AM
in reply to: #2774092

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
lisac957 - 2010-04-07 11:45 AM

I am not against having a well-trained dog off-leash on an scarcely populated trail or something like that.

However, I'm not sure why you would ever take the chance in a populated area/trail/park? It would only take ONE instance of the dog deciding to be agressive toward another dog, or god forbid, a small child. Even if it was playful, a dog of any size can knock down a small child and cause injury or worse. Personally I would never take that chance, no matter how well-trained my dog was. Even the most well-trained dogs can have an unpredictable episode. Just ask the one that chewed up my face when I was a kid.

 




Aimed at me?

I said in my first post that 90% of the time she is leashed and that 10% when she is unleashed is on sparsely populated trails. That being said, I do not like having my unleashed dogged lumped in with all the and uncontrolled dogs that are the issue.

Unleashed does not equal uncontrolled. That's my main point.
2010-04-07 11:55 AM
in reply to: #2774049

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
crusevegas - 2010-04-07 11:31 AM

graceful_dave - 2010-04-07 7:06 AM
quincyf - 2010-04-07 7:17 AM If you are a dog owner who is willing to break the law by letting your dogs off lead (when there are leash laws) you are a person I don't trust to have trained those dogs properly. I call the police EVERY time I see it here in Chicago. For my kids safety, my leashed (can't run away) Pugs (can't defend themselves) safety, for my safety, for YOUR dog's safety, and for cleanliness sake...I never see owners of unleashed dogs running over to pick up the turd on the other side of the park left behind by their little darlings. But I always say something to the owners first and without exception, they always react like I'm the A-hole. Maybe I am but I'm not the A-hole getting bit.
So you never knowingly break the posted speed limit?

If others can pick and choose which law to obey, I and others can pick and choose which laws we are going to be sticklers about.

Good Post Quicny and thanks for your effort in making a safer community!!!!!!!!!



As long as you do not pick and choose which you obey. Once you start picking and choosing which laws to obey I think you loose the credibility to be a stickler.

So having read my city municipal code and I one of the untrustworthy law breakers?

And now, I'm done. I've wasted enough time on this issue and I've work to do.


2010-04-07 11:58 AM
in reply to: #2773995

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
graceful_dave - 2010-04-07 11:16 AM

SpottedCow - 2010-04-07 9:54 AM

CitySky - 2010-04-06 11:15 PM
SpottedCow - 2010-04-06 11:15 PM The short answer to the original question is:

1) Unless the park is a designated off-leash dog park, leash your dog

2) If you don't want to leash your dog, find a fenced off-leash dog park

3) Leashes save lives (regardless of how well-behaved you think your dog is) - If you don't agree, spend some time at your local veterinary emergency hospital


I wish it were this easy.  For dogs who have fear aggression when approached by other dogs, the dog park isn't an option either.


It really is this easy... as long as everyone follows the rules.  Dogs that have fear-based aggression when approached by other dogs shouldn't go to the dog park.  That's a no-brainer. They can easily be leashed walked in public spaces as long as everyone else follows the rules and leashes their own dogs - which prevents said fearful dog from being approached by another strange off-leash dog.

The answer is - leash your dogs (unless you're walking in a designated off-leash area)


Just to reiterate, unleashed does not equal uncontrolled. My dog, even unleashed, is not allowed to approach another dog without my releasing her from either my heel or a sitting position. Just because she is not on a leash does not mean she is free to run up to strange dogs, or free to go gallivanting where ever she pleases.

Dogs that run up to your leashed dog are uncontrolled and I agree that is a very bad thing.

The problem that I have with this argument is that there’s no universally-agreed-upon standard for what “under control” means. I see people in the park all the time with unleashed dogs, and the dogs are roaming all around, sniffing trees, other dogs, people, etc. I’m sure that in the owner’s mind, the fact that the dog stays in their vicinity, doesn’t run away, and comes back when they call it means that he’s under control. By most standards, including yours, that dog isn’t under control.

With a leash, there’s no argument about whether the dog is under control or not. He’s either on the lead or he isn’t.


Edited by jmk-brooklyn 2010-04-07 11:59 AM
2010-04-07 12:03 PM
in reply to: #2768430

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2010-04-07 12:05 PM
in reply to: #2774142

Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash

graceful_dave - 2010-04-07 9:55 AM
crusevegas - 2010-04-07 11:31 AM

graceful_dave - 2010-04-07 7:06 AM
quincyf - 2010-04-07 7:17 AM If you are a dog owner who is willing to break the law by letting your dogs off lead (when there are leash laws) you are a person I don't trust to have trained those dogs properly. I call the police EVERY time I see it here in Chicago. For my kids safety, my leashed (can't run away) Pugs (can't defend themselves) safety, for my safety, for YOUR dog's safety, and for cleanliness sake...I never see owners of unleashed dogs running over to pick up the turd on the other side of the park left behind by their little darlings. But I always say something to the owners first and without exception, they always react like I'm the A-hole. Maybe I am but I'm not the A-hole getting bit.
So you never knowingly break the posted speed limit?

If others can pick and choose which law to obey, I and others can pick and choose which laws we are going to be sticklers about.

Good Post Quicny and thanks for your effort in making a safer community!!!!!!!!!

As long as you do not pick and choose which you obey. Once you start picking and choosing which laws to obey I think you loose the credibility to be a stickler. So having read my city municipal code and I one of the untrustworthy law breakers? And now, I'm done. I've wasted enough time on this issue and I've work to do.

Absolutely not, from what you have said you are well within the law.

The sad thing is the way the law is written, finding someone guilty of breaking the leash law would be very difficult due to the lack of defining what "other means" is defined as. I would say most people who have their dogs off leasy would be no more guilty than you if they have even a minimal amount of control.

2010-04-07 12:27 PM
in reply to: #2774135

Alpharetta, Georgia
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
graceful_dave - 2010-04-07 11:53 AM
lisac957 - 2010-04-07 11:45 AM I am not against having a well-trained dog off-leash on an scarcely populated trail or something like that.

However, I'm not sure why you would ever take the chance in a populated area/trail/park? It would only take ONE instance of the dog deciding to be agressive toward another dog, or god forbid, a small child. Even if it was playful, a dog of any size can knock down a small child and cause injury or worse. Personally I would never take that chance, no matter how well-trained my dog was. Even the most well-trained dogs can have an unpredictable episode. Just ask the one that chewed up my face when I was a kid.

 


Aimed at me?


No, not aimed at anyone in particular. I just read the whole thread and those were my thoughts.

 
2010-04-07 12:41 PM
in reply to: #2774135

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
graceful_dave - 2010-04-07 11:53 AM
lisac957 - 2010-04-07 11:45 AM 

Unleashed does not equal uncontrolled. That's my main point.





I used to believe this too, until I graduated from veterinary school and  became an emergency practitioner -  and began to care for all the really well-trained dogs that ran "just once" (had never done anything like it before!) and were hit by a car, engaged in a dog fight, or bit a person.


I used to walk my competitive obedience trial dog off leash because he was so well trained.  He never did get into any trouble, but I see now that it wasn't the right thing to do, and I was very lucky.  I've seen both sides of the coin and I stand firmly on one side now.

Leashes save lives (and they allow everyone to enjoy public areas the same way).

Edited by SpottedCow 2010-04-07 12:42 PM


2010-04-07 12:43 PM
in reply to: #2773477

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
graceful_dave - 2010-04-07 9:06 AM

quincyf - 2010-04-07 7:17 AM

If you are a dog owner who is willing to break the law by letting your dogs off lead (when there are leash laws) you are a person I don't trust to have trained those dogs properly.

I call the police EVERY time I see it here in Chicago. For my kids safety, my leashed (can't run away) Pugs (can't defend themselves) safety, for my safety, for YOUR dog's safety, and for cleanliness sake...I never see owners of unleashed dogs running over to pick up the turd on the other side of the park left behind by their little darlings.

But I always say something to the owners first and without exception, they always react like I'm the A-hole. Maybe I am but I'm not the A-hole getting bit.


So you never knowingly break the posted speed limit?



I would LOVE to break the posted speed limit, but as I said I live in Chicago. Between soul crushing traffic, giant man-eating potholes, and roving packs of unleashed dogs, I can barely get above 15mph...besides mini-vans driven by middle aged women look stupid going fast. Sigh.
2010-04-07 12:52 PM
in reply to: #2774286

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
SpottedCow - 2010-04-07 1:41 PM
I used to believe this too, until I graduated from veterinary school and  became an emergency practitioner -  and began to care for all the really well-trained dogs that ran "just once" (had never done anything like it before!) and were hit by a car, engaged in a dog fight, or bit a person.


I used to walk my competitive obedience trial dog off leash because he was so well trained.  He never did get into any trouble, but I see now that it wasn't the right thing to do, and I was very lucky.  I've seen both sides of the coin and I stand firmly on one side now.

Leashes save lives (and they allow everyone to enjoy public areas the same way).


AS I said earlier, people can have differing opinions on dogs being off lead as a general rule.  I understand your perspective, and I assume that even in lightly used trails that allow off lead dogs, you keep yours on lead (maybe longer than 6 feet, but still on lead)?  I think this is the same thing I am saying, that having the dog on or off lead is not really based on whether it is legal in a given patch of ground.  It is based on where you are, what you believe your dog will do, etc.  All the issues that crusevegas and you bring up are true whether or not it is legal for the dog to be off lead.

Edited by gearboy 2010-04-07 12:56 PM
2010-04-07 12:56 PM
in reply to: #2774160

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Subject: RE: Dog Owners: Parks & Dogs Off Leash
Sharyn5 - 2010-04-07 1:03 PM I think the argument about comparing letting one's dog run without a leash, and that of going slightly over the speed limit...are two different things. Yes, we should maintain the speed limit or below...but, going over 5 mph ...sometimes, it's not purposeful...your foot just presses too hard on the gas or something. One has to willfully keep one's dog off of a leash...it's premeditated. It's not like I get in my car and say...''I'm going to speed today,'' I think that yes, we can control that...and should. But, going 5 mph and allowing a dog to run free without a leash, are two different mindsets, and situations. I get the principle, and the point though.

Just my thoughts.


I think you and mrs gearboy must drive alike.  I personally DO knowingly speed.  When I am doing 70 mph on I-95 driving down to my daughter's college (go terps!), I did not "accidently" press too hard on the gas.  I intend to get to 70 mph, and then set the cruise control.  And then I get passed by those doing 75-80, on a road posted 65.

I do NOT, however speed in the cities.  For one thing, it is literally impossible.  For another, there are too many potential hazards and risks that don't exist on the interstates (e.g. not too many kids running around the expressway).
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