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2010-04-19 1:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
As a newbie runner (who just started tri-training this past winter), I actually had zero issues with mid to forefront strike and I found it to be most natural. Unlike many others, I cannot speak to the transition from back to front as I have only ever run forefront... since childhood, it felt the most natural despite the old belief that backfoot running was optimal. Regardless of the ongoing debate, it feels good and makes sense so I embraced it and haven't had issues (at least not in 5 months, which is rookie I realize!)

If anything, the few times I find myself doing heel-strikes (generally when my upper legs tire and I want to relax a bit on a long run), I cramp up in the calves and I feel I get less power from my thighs- alas, this is subjective and somewhat anecdotal.

Even though mid to front strike *feels* right for me (and arguably is the preferred method based on evolutionary science), there is a caviat: do you have to be barefoot to enjoy the benefits of this style of running? What happens when we couple front-foot running with the super-cushioned trainers that most of us wear? I wear minimally supportive Nikes, btw, and have no problems with them but I am planning on splurging on a pair of Newtons. If anyone has made the switch to Newtons while already running forefront to begin with, I'd be very interested in hearing their thoughts!

Cheers!


2010-04-19 1:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
I had some hamstring issues too during my race, which is one of the reasons why I'm considering a change, and Gary, funny stuff man...I was actually anticipating a blitz of people ready to hang me for mentioning a change in running form...
2010-04-19 1:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
OK, I'm going to lay this out as concisely as I can.

The first thing a person who is having problems should look at is training. How much is he doing? How often is he training? What is the intensity? What are the short-term trends? If you are adding in too much volume or intensity, you are probably going to have problems. If you try to raise both at the same time, you are probably going to have problems.

The second thing to look at is what happens towards the end of a training session. Do you get fatigued and let yourself get all sloppy? If so, you need to: A) back off volume, and B) hit the running drills (I posted the link earlier).

The third thing I would look at is equipment, namely how long it has been since I changed out the shoes. I have found that aches in my legs and particularly my knees are related to worn-out shoes. A fresh pair will resolve the issue within a few days.

The fourth thing would be to consider the shoes the person is wearing. I have met people who trained happily in stability shoes, then all of a sudden after a training cycle they started to develop chronic aches. They ditched the stability shoes, and are now happily training again. Your needs may very have changed. Note, this does NOT mean you go to some sort of minimalist shoe and jump right back into it where you were. You switch to a neutral shoe, and see how it goes. Test the waters, don't dive in head-first.

If all else fails, you start looking at biomechanical issues. Is there a leg length discrepancy? Is there a muscle imbalance? Is there some other issue going on? Generally speaking, I leave this step up to trained medical professionals to weigh in on.

I will skip to the last step if I suffer an injury severe enough to warrant time off from training. ITBS and a pulled hamstring would be personal examples of such things. Preventative measures for both of those issues involved never having to get past step #3, and usually step #1.
2010-04-19 1:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner

I started making the change over to fore/mid-foot probably about 18 months ago.  I still feel like I am making the change.  No, seriously, it's the way I run now, and I feel completely normal with the foot strike.  But the tight calf muscles and achilles are pretty much a never-ending issue that require constant maintenance with stretching and massage, and the occasional break from a workout or two as needed.  I think this will just be the new normal for me as long as I stay with the technique.  Knees have been good (the reason I made the change).  Honestly, I think I slowed down a little bit.  I am just now starting to see some signs of improved pace, but it's been a very slow ramp up where I am just now steadily doing 20+ miles per week.  Shoes?  I  never tried Newton's or anything of the sort.  I just recently ditched my old, worn-out Brooks and am running with inexpensive Asics Gels which are working fine for me.

2010-04-19 2:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
mrbigheado - 2010-04-19 11:21 AM
. . .

1.how long did it take you to become really comfortable? 
2 Did you notice a significant change in your speed and efficiency?
 3. Are you having less pains in the knees?...
4.  What kind of drills are you using to get adjusted other than running?
5.  What shoes are you using to cater to forefoot running other than the newtons?

Thanks, any input is appreciated...


OK, I'll bite and share my experience . . .

1.  I started in VFF's in January (week 1: 1/8 run, 1/8 walk, etc - 2 miles total; week 2: 1/4 run, 1/8 walk . . .) after about 2 months I could jog 3 miles straight, but my calves were *sore* (not injury sore; similar to lifting heavy after a long break from weights).  I'm now up to about 6 miles in VFF's for one of my 3-4 runs per week.  As I've extended the mileage, I haven't usually experienced any calf fatigue until the last half mile to mile of the new distance (I have yet to extend the distance more than 1/2 mile from the previous long run in the VFF's).  So, on shorter runs (3-5 miles), I'm comfortable; still adjusting on longer runs. 
2.  My HR is lower at all speeds compared to my former road shoes (Dyad's).  I guess you could also say that at the same level of effort (in terms of HR) I'm running faster.
3.  I never had knee pain, but had other aches in my lower legs that have pretty much disappeared (other than the calf fatigue that seems to come with the territory).
4. No drills.
5.  Up until today (coincidentally) I had been switching off between my VFF's and Dyad's, which was a little tough, because the Dyad's didn't really work for me to use a forefoot strike (too much heel).  As a result I had a different gait with the different shoes, which was manageable, but annoying.  I just got back from my local running shop and tried a bunch of different shoes, and wound up with the Brooks Ghost 2's.  The arch is built up somewhat, and I found that it naturally accomodated a forefoot strike.  I've only run in them once, but so far I think they compliment the VFF's really well.

Good luck.  Take it slow.  I'm with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it camp", but I was having enough aches and pains myself that I wanted to give the VFF's a shot.  For me, they've worked out well.
2010-04-19 2:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner

mrbigheado - 2010-04-19 12:21 PM

1.how long did it take you to become really comfortable? 
2 Did you notice a significant change in your speed and efficiency?
 3. Are you having less pains in the knees?...
4.  What kind of drills are you using to get adjusted other than running?
5.  What shoes are you using to cater to forefoot running other than the newtons?

Thanks, any input is appreciated...

1) After about 5 years of trying to run in regular running shoes, (trying various custom and off-shelf orthotics, motion control, stability, etc shoes) and not being able to build much above 45 minute with some regularity due to foot problems, I started using Vibrams and going barefoot in August 2009.   The calves and achilles have been slow to adapt.  The feet are doing great.  No problems at all with the feet.  But I am now able to run 30-35 minutes every other day.  My plan is to keep solidifying this distance before going appreciably longer.    I feel about ready to try longer now.

2) I have done 1 race in Vibrams, a Turkey Trot 5 mile race which I was not trained for distance wise.  Despite this, I blew away my previous PR paces by about 40 seconds per mile (7:40 avg pace versus ~8:20 previously).  I can definitely feel the energy return on my strides now versus just a dead thud when I heel-striked previously.

3) No knee pain.  My long term recurring foot problems have gone away with this switch.

4) No drills

5) I'm using Vibrams

 

To summarize, I've been rather slow to adapt.  I suspect it will take me a year or more to do so.  Actually, its already been 8 months.   Its the calf/achilles that is my limiter.  But it feels sooo much better running this way.  And I'm substantially faster too.



2010-04-19 3:16 PM
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2010-04-19 3:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
thanks everyone, the discussion here is good stuff.....
2010-04-19 3:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
This topic is like watching the US Senate debate a the healthcare bill.  There maybe a few things each side agrees on, but as a whole, no matter what one side says the other side will continue believing what they want.

2010-04-19 3:53 PM
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2010-04-19 7:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
Or even better, they will realize that the reason the professional and elite runners run so well and run in a certain manner is because - wait for it - they run upwards of 5,000 miles a year (on average).  NOT because they changed their shoe style or their foot strike.  Their body adapted to the most efficient running gait and stride that works for them, not the other way round.

Triathletes continue to amaze me with their "get fast quick pills."  They are so apt to try and find the magic bullet to get fast and continue to fail to do so.  But if they would simply sit back and look at the people that ARE fast in the sport they will see the same thing.  Dedication, consistency and hard work.  Not equipment choices and faddish running trends.  Just sweat and solid workouts.


2010-04-19 7:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
Road Phoenix - 2010-04-19 6:43 PM

Or even better, they will realize that the reason the professional and elite runners run so well and run in a certain manner is because - wait for it - they run upwards of 5,000 miles a year (on average). NOT because they changed their shoe style or their foot strike. Their body adapted to the most efficient running gait and stride that works for them, not the other way round.

Triathletes continue to amaze me with their "get fast quick pills." They are so apt to try and find the magic bullet to get fast and continue to fail to do so. But if they would simply sit back and look at the people that ARE fast in the sport they will see the same thing. Dedication, consistency and hard work. Not equipment choices and faddish running trends. Just sweat and solid workouts.



exactly.


and just to clarify something else, i do not think forefoot, or mid, running is bad, but rather that you should run what is natural to you unless you have a huge issue that needs fixing.
2010-04-19 7:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
newbz - 2010-04-19 8:45 PM and just to clarify something else, i do not think forefoot, or mid, running is bad, but rather that you should run what is natural to you unless you have a huge issue that needs fixing.


And unless they have had a real professional running gait analysis on the road AND treadmill, they have no basis for making that call.  "Only a fool would represent themself in court."
2010-04-19 8:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
duly noted...great comment, however, atleast for me, I'm not trying to get fast as quick as a i can via finding the next trend w/o working hard.  I want to work hard while using the right methods.  If i could already start off with the right methods and work hard at the same time, I kill 2 birds with one stone.  But road and newbz, you're right, none of it is accomplish w/o the sweat...
2010-04-19 8:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
I can definitely appreciate the desire to be the best possible athlete without compromising methods and approaches.  And it is certainly not a bad idea to ask questions!  That is how we learn and grow.  Every person is different and there is no real "right" answer to a question.

But the bottom line is still what I mentioned earlier.  The reason very experienced runners all have a certain style, stride length, stride rate and look to their running is because to go a certain speed you need to have similar characteristics and those are developed by your body over time.

You cannot "force" a 5 minute mile or the running mechanics that are needed to accomplish that.  What you see too often is someone attempting to mimic what they THINK the elite runners are doing and adapt that to a pace that can be at times twice as slow.  Telling a 10 minute mile paced athlete that they need to run at a minimum of 90 cadence because it is more efficient and is what the elite athlete does is, in my opinion, very irresponsible from someone else.  Why?  Because that slower athlete will incur twice as much impact and stress on the joints and muscles as would the faster runner over the same distance by doing that.

The reason to land underneath the body is to provide the maximum application of force on the push off.  This happens at 90 degrees to the ground.  If one lands in front of their body line then some of that force has a vector that is not in the vertical.  Same if they are landing behind their centerline.  It does not matter AT ALL which part of the foot hits first because the force application to the ground will be relatively the same because of the location of the impact.  You extend back to apply that force to the ground to propel yourself forward and the action of the achilles tendon acts as a spring to snap that power out.  So after the impact the key is actually to extend BACKWARD with the leg to get the most of ones stride.

What has been taken and marketed and written about (starting with the Newton shoes) and sold to all the gullible triathletes is that if one runs with their forefoot or midfoot landing/strike, then they will be faster.  After all, that is what the pros do, right?  Wrong.  Over 80% or so of the top placing elite level of long distance runners have their heel strike as the first point of contact in their stride.  But no matter which parts hits first, ALL of them land underneath their centerline for force application.  The misconception is that landing on one's heal creates a braking force which slows them down and impacts the joints more.  That is simply not the case.  Landing in front of your centerline does that.

And I would challenge almost every single runner here that calls themselves a "midfoot" or "forefoot" runner to send in a slow-mo video of their running.  I could guarantee that almost every single one would actually land with their heel first.  "Forefoot" running is just plain silly to me to start with because unless the person is a 100 to 200 meter sprinter they should not even be doing that in the first place.  It is really inefficient for endurance runners.

Sorry for the long post.  This is just a topic that has me shaking my head every time I see it for the lack of real knowledge and comprehension out there on the subject.
2010-04-19 8:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
We should all run like Paula Radcliffe because she is one of the fasted women in the world (marathons), her running is painful to watch, but it works for her. 

Cheers



2010-04-19 9:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
mrbigheado - 2010-04-19 7:02 PM

duly noted...great comment, however, atleast for me, I'm not trying to get fast as quick as a i can via finding the next trend w/o working hard.  I want to work hard while using the right methods.  If i could already start off with the right methods and work hard at the same time, I kill 2 birds with one stone.  But road and newbz, you're right, none of it is accomplish w/o the sweat...


You have visited my training logs in the past and asked me about training. All the folks who are saying it's not about the foot strike are 100% right. I never, ever, think about mu foot strike. I just run. I run a lot. I run far. I run fast. That's all I do.
2010-04-20 6:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
mrbigheado - 2010-04-19 10:02 PM

duly noted...great comment, however, atleast for me, I'm not trying to get fast as quick as a i can via finding the next trend w/o working hard.  I want to work hard while using the right methods.  If i could already start off with the right methods and work hard at the same time, I kill 2 birds with one stone.  But road and newbz, you're right, none of it is accomplish w/o the sweat...


Instead of looking to change form to get to the "right" methods, you are much better off just running and letting your form take care of itself.  Like Scout has posted there are some key drills that you can do to help with running form but trying to alter your footstrike because you think you should is not necessarily what you should be doing.

If you are experiencing injuries then considering changing running form may be worthwhile but if you've been running injury free, there is very little need to consider a change.  Pile on the miles and your body will figure out what it needs to do.

If you want to learn about methods that you can use to get faster, then I would suggest Daniels' Running Formula by Jack Daniels as a starting point.  If you can apply the concepts presented in the book to your training, you will get faster.

Shane
2010-04-20 8:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner

This year I started running in VFF and barefoot on the treadmill...slowly.  Not so much because I think it would make me any faster...I don't believe going from mid-foot to forefoot strike will increase my speed, but moreso because after more than 20-years of running I have developed some knee pain that I have never expereince before.  The theory of letting your foot take more of the running impact than your knees makes sense to me.  And honestly. I can listen to the otho that tells me I have arthritis and wants to give me cortisone injections or look at some other options that don't involve medicine.  I want other options! although I have not made a decision on the barefoot running yet. 

I do have a friend, that is pretty fast, that does all his running barefoot or in VFF's.  He has been for a while and swears he will never run in shoes again!  But as others have mentioned, there can be some risks so if you are going to run barefoot ease into it.  The longest run I have done barefoot is 5-miles. 

2010-04-20 8:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
the one thing I keep hearing from people that run in VFF (*note I have a pair and will run in them every so often)  is that they started off slow and built their mileage up slowly.  I think this is a big reason why they run better now. 
2010-04-20 8:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
Gaarryy - 2010-04-20 9:29 AM

the one thing I keep hearing from people that run in VFF (*note I have a pair and will run in them every so often)  is that they started off slow and built their mileage up slowly.  I think this is a big reason why they run better now. 


Completely agree. I've said it before, the majority of running-related injuries come from too much too soon, be it volume, intensity, or both. If it takes running barefoot to get a person to slow down and build slowly, I'm all for it.


2010-04-20 8:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
I'm going to start a new trend called "aftfoot training" and dedicate it to Scout.
2010-04-20 8:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
DerekL - 2010-04-20 9:43 AM

I'm going to start a new trend called "aftfoot training" and dedicate it to Scout.


You are my hero.

If you are ever looking for a new gig, we can use you at the Chia Running Institute. Your new name will have to be Doctor DILLIGAF, however.
2010-04-20 9:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
i think it may also be important to note that non-running, but athletic people make these mistakes as well.  I am a perfect example.  When I started TRYING to run, I was all awkward, had no form and went out thinking I could push myself like I do on the bike, like I do in the pool, like I do on the court, like I do in EVERYTHING I DO. 

Running is just a different animal.  It should be treated like one.  This may be rare, but in my case, I figured out that I was a mid/forefoot striker.  It sounds funny when I think about it, but since I had never run any distance at all, I really did not know how.  I had always been sprinting from here to there in short bursts.  When I started landing in what happened to be a more natural style, I was comfortable for only a short distance.  This was only a few months ago.  Then I did something really stupid and got excited that I could run and went out fast two times in a row.  In come the shin splints.  THREE weeks off, just like that.  So now I'm back to running injury free and at minimal intensity and short distances.

I guess I shouldn't say I switched to forefoot running because I just sort of started there, but I have never had any calf issues or anything like that.  When I try to heal strike it is the most awkward and uncomfortable thing.  I can't breath regularly or anything.  My whole body seems to be banging around like a tin can.

Just do what is comfortable for you.  And if you are just starting, don't do it too much, don't do it too fast and don't do it too often!!  I wish people would just listen to this and not make stupid mistakes like I did.  I am two months behind in my run training because I didn't listen.  People like scout, newbz, johnnykay....everyone chiming in, have really helped me.  I appreciate it, but I would really appreciate it if others would listen and heed their advice.
2010-04-20 9:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Becoming a forefoot runner
It completely drives me insane when people talk and talk about just going out there and pounding out the miles. But do it slowly!!! There is a lot of technique in running. Good form promotes many of the things people want to achieve, like fast times and a reduction in injuries. Would any of you tell people to just get into a pool and swim without giving technique a second thought??

Just stand on the side lines and watch triathletes run in at a race. It makes me cringe. I support a lot of my HIM friends at races. Some of the gaits are horrendous. I wonder how the hell can they go that far without shredding something. Most likely they are shredding muscles and incur injuries.

Even if you don't have injury after injury it is still good to focus on your running form and constantly try to improve it just as we do in the pool.

Form is HUGE!!!!

Ok...waiting for the tongue lashing.
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