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2010-05-14 8:02 AM

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Subject: What causes problems/injuries with running.
In light of a recent thread (or should I say - yet another thread) that delves into the wants and desires to run in some sort of minimalist/barefoot style shoe I would like to throw some things out there based on my experience with running on and off for 20 years and also being a certified track and field coach.

The following things are what cause injury both in my experience and in coaching results:

1) Doing too much too soon.  What does this mean?  People newer to the sport or newer to running in general want to be faster.  We all do.  Even the people who have been running for years!  But what happens is someone will go out and do one of two things.  Ramp up their pace/effort too fast or ramp up their volume/distance too fast.  Each one of those categorically lead to running injuries.  Usually some form of tendonitis and inflamation (be it ITB, PF or other knee and foot issues).

Solution?  Build up slowly and don't worry about the pace so much.  Use the generic 10% rule - do not increase your overall volume by more than 10% each week.  And make every 4th or 5th week a "step-back" week where you do less.

2) Worrying about cadence and turnover numbers.  What does this mean?  For some silly reason people have gotten it into their heads that to run well and fast you must run around 90/180 (90 per foot or 180 total per minute footstrike).  "Well, it is what elite runners do, isn't it?  There have been a few studies that show this, right?"  Yes, there have been.  But here's the rub - they are also running sub-5 minute miles at the elite marathon level and around 6 at the elite IM distance for triathletes.  Guess what that means?  Their 180 steps per minute results in anywhere from 900 - 1100 steps per mile at a stride length of 4.8 to 5.87 feet.  What about those 9 to 10 minute milers trying to emulate that?  1620 - 1800 steps per mile at a stride length of 2.93 to 3.26 feet.  So who do you think is going to be higher risk?  The person running 700 steps less in a mile or the person running more??

Solution?  Don't worry about counting your steps.  Your stride will naturally fall into a rhythm with the pace you are going.  The faster you get, the faster your turnover will become.  Now, some may say "chicken and the egg - if you turnover faster, you will run faster!"  Well, that is correct.  The problem with that logic though?  your heart/aerobic condition becomes the limiter.  A car with 100 hp is only going to be able to go so fast, regardless of how high you can rev.

3) Thinking there is only one correct foot strike.  What does this mean?  Too often people believe what they read from marketing hype and that trend right now is that heel striking is evil and is the cause of all problems with running.  That is completely incorrect.  Not even remotely the case.  Huh?  It has been shown, again in elite runners, that well over 70% of the field has first contact in their foot strike with the heel.  And of the top finishers in races that percentage is higher.  No way, that can't be right!  Yes, it is.  How can that be?  The answer is simple.  It is not what PART of the foot lands first, it is WHERE that part of the foot lands in relation to the rest of the body.  The direct application of force that provides the maximum push is at a 90 degree angle.  This is why sprinters start in blocks and efficient runners run "tall" and elongated straight up.

Solution?  Add in some running drills to focus on landing upright and underneath your body line.  Try to pay attention to your running form and where your foot lands in relation to your body.  Do NOT worry about what part hits first.  The reality is that all of those mid-foot/forefoot weenies out there who think they are landing that way are incorrect and if you saw their strike in slow-mo their heel would still be hitting first.  Sprinters (100 - 400 meter runners)?  Sure, the may land that way.  But distance runners should not be.  It is not the way that your body was designed to run over distance.

Unfortunately, I see the "barefoot/minimalist" approach taking place of the whole forefoot/midfoot Newton crowd.  Keep these things in mind ^^^^ as you get into running and make this a long and enjoyable process.  Your body will adapt and make the physiological changes that are needed to run efficiently and quickly.

Remember, peaking in abilities in endurance sports takes 7 - 10 YEARS.  It takes that long for the physioloigcal adaptations to take place to build up your economy and efficiency of motion.  Too often people try to see results in 7 to 10 months.  That is almost always why they end up injured.

There is something we refer to as "training age" in athletes.  Just like growing up, you cannot expect a 1 year old to be able to run like a teenager.  If someone has only been running for a full season, then their training age is 1.  For newer athletes try to think in this manner.  You've gotta crawl before you walk and walk before you run.

I could go on for pages on this topic as it is one of the most critical things that I have to deal with since I work with newer and younger runners.  Getting them on the right path early means they can enjoy the sport for years.

Hope I've provided some insight.


2010-05-14 8:35 AM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Nice post, I'm a newb here and reading about training age really helps put some things in perspective, has me thinking about this a little differantly now.



2010-05-14 8:46 AM
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2010-05-14 9:00 AM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
heel striking---------the global warming of the running world!
I have gotten to know a fellow in his 70's who has been running and athletic since the early 60's. He is a very inspiring guy. I asked him if he runs mid foot, fore foot or heel.... 

he responded, he runs so it doesn't hurt and is enjoyable.
(it's funny, he complains he only runs a 9 minute pace now that he is in his 70's)
2010-05-14 9:07 AM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
2010-05-14 9:12 AM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.

Nice post. I generally agree with most of it.

1. It takes time to build. Lots more time than many people realize. Trying to force the process increases the risk of injury. It also takes consistent training, not the sporadic training promoted by always having to be following a specific plan. There seems to be too little attention for maintenance training - or what people need to do after they finish a plan/race, and start another plan.

2. Not something I've ever worried about. I counted one time years ago as a matter of curiosity. The number is too variable to be of much use.

3. Agree the focus of what part strikes first is wrong. It's where that part strikes in relation to the body that's important. However, the barefoot/minimalist movement seems to be an attempt to get people to move away from the typical overstriding form many people use partially because of clunky shoes that promote overstriding. If people were running with good form these clunky shoes wouldn't be necessary and it many cases they may hinder good form.

I don't agree the body will make changes on its own for everyone. People who run lower volume simply don't run enough for this to occur. It seems a vast number of triathletes fall into this area. What many triathletes think of as high volume tends to be thought of as low/minimal volume for serious runners. This lack of volume may be a reason why many triathletes may never reach their full running potential.



2010-05-14 9:26 AM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Very timely, there's also an article in this months Triathlete magazine saying the same thing.
2010-05-14 10:35 AM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Scout7 - 2010-05-14 10:07 AM Post by Matt Fitzgerald


Love this quote:

"Of course, speed is not important to every runner, and that’s okay. The barefoot running movement is not really about speed. As Benno Nigg says, it’s really more of a religion. At its foundation is a very appealing ethos of naturalness and freedom, and now that the movement is fully formed, it also offers a sectarian sense of belonging, as my colleague Mario Fraioli observed in a recent article about a Vibram event in Boston. The reason I’ll never join this movement is that I care about speed too much, and I must confess that I see in it an element of Nietzschean ressentiment (hatred of the weak for the strong). I’d rather try as hard as I can to be fast and live with being 20 percent slower than Ryan Hall than latch onto barefoot running as a sort of sacred truth that allows me to feel superior to the unsaved shoe-wearing runners who kick my butt in races."
2010-05-14 10:39 AM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Donskiman - 2010-05-14 10:12 AM

I don't agree the body will make changes on its own for everyone. People who run lower volume simply don't run enough for this to occur. It seems a vast number of triathletes fall into this area. What many triathletes think of as high volume tends to be thought of as low/minimal volume for serious runners. This lack of volume may be a reason why many triathletes may never reach their full running potential.



100% agree with your statement.  I didn't want to get into the whole "want to run better train like a runner" thing because it can be overwhelming to a new athlete to think that the only way they are going to see their true potential is with continuous 50+ mile weeks.

However, for a new runner they WILL see continuous improvement with consistent workouts and a proper build up to a certain point - at which volume becomes the limiter to improvement.  Form and repitition is crucial for good swimming.  It is for running as well, but a lot of that form develops on an individual level as one's body adapts to the activity.

2010-05-14 11:08 AM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Road Phoenix - 2010-05-14 9:39 AM
Donskiman - 2010-05-14 10:12 AM

I don't agree the body will make changes on its own for everyone. People who run lower volume simply don't run enough for this to occur. It seems a vast number of triathletes fall into this area. What many triathletes think of as high volume tends to be thought of as low/minimal volume for serious runners. This lack of volume may be a reason why many triathletes may never reach their full running potential.



100% agree with your statement.  I didn't want to get into the whole "want to run better train like a runner" thing because it can be overwhelming to a new athlete to think that the only way they are going to see their true potential is with continuous 50+ mile weeks.

However, for a new runner they WILL see continuous improvement with consistent workouts and a proper build up to a certain point - at which volume becomes the limiter to improvement.  Form and repitition is crucial for good swimming.  It is for running as well, but a lot of that form develops on an individual level as one's body adapts to the activity.



I don't really with that. There are many examples of top runners who have poor form despite years of experience and higher volumes. Some of these people seem to be able to overpower their poor form. But there are also less high performing runners who are never able to utilize their full potential in part because their poor form hinders them. Such people include those who can run relatively fast despite the overstriding/heel striking/braking form they use. Their training doesn't cause good form to develop, but rather it seems to cause physiological adaptations that allow their bodies to withstand higher levels of abuse. Some of these people do fairly well for several years before their body inevitably starts breaking down as a result of their high volume of poor form. How many times has a person said something like, "I used to run really well, then my knees gave out?"

I simply can't agree the best way to acquire good form is to let the body adapt.
2010-05-14 11:17 AM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Understood.

But if people take to heart the things I listed (landing underneath, not worrying about cadence or footstrike part, ramping up slowly, drills) then they are well on their way to developing good form so that their increase in volume over time does not have to overcome improper form.

What I constantly tell my runners is "Body upright to open up the lungs, arms relaxed by your sides and not crossing the centerline and land underneath your body."  Drill that into their head and they eventually get it.


2010-05-14 11:22 AM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Does this mean I should quit my "Couch Potato to IM World Champion in Three Months" plan?
2010-05-14 11:36 AM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Road Phoenix - 2010-05-14 10:17 AM Understood.

But if people take to heart the things I listed (landing underneath, not worrying about cadence or footstrike part, ramping up slowly, drills) then they are well on their way to developing good form so that their increase in volume over time does not have to overcome improper form.

What I constantly tell my runners is "Body upright to open up the lungs, arms relaxed by your sides and not crossing the centerline and land underneath your body."  Drill that into their head and they eventually get it.


I agree with the things you've listed. Where I disagree it that people will just "get it" on their own as they run more.

What you are doing is promoting good form, which is much different than people just eventually getting it. The way you are going about it is only slightly different than the way people who espouse the barefoot/minimalist appoach go about it. IOW, both ways are trying to achieve similar results. Neither may be particularly better than the other overall, but may be better on an individual basis.
2010-05-14 12:19 PM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Part of this confusion is that no one is really able to define "good form".

Don, I disagree with the idea that top runners have poor form. It may not be textbook example of "proper", but it obviously is working for them.

Good form is nebulous at best, and a moving target. There is no such thing as an example of good form. Yes, there are certain aspects that you should avoid. But anything beyond that is individual, based on the person's body and past history.

Yes, you should attempt to land under your center of gravity. Yes, you should focus on running relaxed, and fluid. But beyond that, what more can we say?

In my experience, the #1 reason people get injured while running has nothing to do with form at all. It has everything to do with biting off more than they are ready for. Too much volume, too much effort. I also think people are too freaked out by the injury monster. If you get injured, you learn something. Back off and try again. Unfortunately, people remove that part, and start looking at things like shoes and food as an answer, when it is often as simple as back off the training for a bit.
2010-05-14 12:49 PM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
EXCELLENT thread....and perfect timing.  I just upped my running (not hard to do, starting where I am), this week.  Not so much in total volume......but in frequency of runs (from 3x to 5X/wk), ramping towards a HM in Oct..  

Thanks, guys. 
2010-05-14 1:49 PM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Regarding heel, forefoot, midfoot striking:

I agree that your foot needs to land under your center of mass with each strike, but, here's my issue with saying/implying heel striking is ok as long as it's under your center of mass:

If you are truly landing under your body/center of mass, wouldn't you have a funky looking running gait if you're heel striking? It'd be as if you're intentionally pointing your toes up, which really wouldn't make any sense.... so I guess, in a way, if your truly landing under your center of mass, wouldn't the runner use a forefoot/midfoot strike, just by the mechanics of a running gait? I'd almost think that a runner would fall backwards if it's a heel strike directly under the body.....!?


2010-05-14 1:52 PM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Also, I agree with one of the posters above mentioning that a lot of elite runners have bad form. You CAN run with a heel strike, but that doesn't mean you're running with good form. I've always thought (and have ran like that till changing recently) that if you're heel striking, chances are you're over-striding.... just like my finisher photo for my avatar. Man, I had NO idea how to run correctly until recently. No wonder why my hips, back, knees & calves are all hosed up.

Edited by kevmk81 2010-05-14 1:52 PM
2010-05-14 2:00 PM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
No, it doesn't look "funky". Especially because the heel will still touch the ground, even as a forefoot striker.

And even if it does look funky, who cares? Appearance is a poor way of judging form. The better way is for the individual to track injuries/pains.

Can we really say elite runners have bad form? Especially when they are elite runners.

Edited by Scout7 2010-05-14 2:01 PM
2010-05-14 2:27 PM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
It has taken me almost 15 years of starting and stopping running to finally figure this out. ITB and hip problems have plagued me since I ran, er, suffered through, a marathon in 1999-- Running is something you cannot just "athlete" or macho your way into. You HAVE to be slow and deliberate about your speed and mileage or you WILL get hurt. Period.

If you ever really want to improve, either speed or distance, or my new goal of just being able to be out there, you have to hold back and tell yourself that you are in this for the long haul, and super pink logs will NOT keep you here. I am on week 7 of couch to 5k. I am so slow I am almost bored. The "runs" are so short it is almost laughable. But I do not hurt anywhere. And I'm still in this and would like to be for a long time. I don't race anymore, I do "events." Next summer, a year after re-entry into this sport, I might do a "race." But for now, these 5k's are for fun, - the new goal is pain free, not even finish, definitely not fast. I wish I had really believed this in my 20's.
2010-05-14 2:52 PM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Road Phoenix - Their 180 steps per minute results in anywhere from 900 - 1100 steps per mile at a stride length of 4.8 to 5.87 feet.  What about those 9 to 10 minute milers trying to emulate that?  1620 - 1800 steps per mile at a stride length of 2.93 to 3.26 feet.  So who do you think is going to be higher risk?  The person running 700 steps less in a mile or the person running more??

Solution?  Don't worry about counting your steps.


I agree with your conclusion. 

But I'm bothered by your logic.  Doubly so because you felt a need to bold it. 

Take it to extremes to see the end results.  Person A takes exactly one step to cover a mile; person B takes 10,000 steps to cover a mile?  Who do you think is going to be higher risk?  The person running 9,999 steps less or the person running more?

A) The athlete who magically jumps one mile, will slam into the ground with tremendous force instantly shattering his ankles and legs.

B) This athlete who shuffles along barely lifting his legs may get bored, but will almost certainly not be injured from this very low impact activity.

It doesn't necessarily follow at all that more steps means more risk of injury.  Possibly quite the opposite actually.  More steps per mile means less impact per step, and thus probably less risk of injury.

But again I agree with your conclusion.  Let your body be your guide.

2010-05-14 3:41 PM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
I can see your thoughts and understand where your coming from.

But to really analyze that you also have to look at your average person in each of those ranges.  Most elite runners are thin and light.  Gab and other elite marathoners are also short as hell (Hall is one of the exceptions - but he is still under 150 lbs).  Impact is based on mass.  These guys/gals don't have hardly any.  So their less steps WILL result in less impact.  Again, pace dictates stride length and turnover.  It is pretty simple actually.

The numbers I have given are not arbitrary and are real world comparisons.  Of course you can say that taking less steps - at a huge "stride length" - will result in larger force impact, but your example is not even remotely possible.  Impact (and more specifically impact in the wrong way) is what causes injury.

I like the basics of what Noakes states, the focus on higher turnover is not how one should work at getting faster.  It is extension of your stride that will get you faster.


2010-05-14 3:57 PM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Yeah, but I know a guy, who tips the scales at over 170, who just finished 12th overall in a 24 hour race. He ran just shy of 6 marathons back to back.

Of course, he also has months that are around 700-900 miles.
2010-05-14 7:28 PM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Road Phoenix - 2010-05-14 9:02 AM

Remember, peaking in abilities in endurance sports takes 7 - 10 YEARS.  It takes that long for the physioloigcal adaptations to take place to build up your economy and efficiency of motion.


Oh, great.... so you're telling me that I'm going to reach my PEAK at around the same time my performance starts to drop off due to age.... Why didn't I start this in my 30's??

2010-05-14 8:21 PM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Scout7 - 2010-05-14 1:00 PM No, it doesn't look "funky". Especially because the heel will still touch the ground, even as a forefoot striker. And even if it does look funky, who cares? Appearance is a poor way of judging form. The better way is for the individual to track injuries/pains. Can we really say elite runners have bad form? Especially when they are elite runners.


Yes. They overcame their poor form and exceled in spite of it. Look at some of the flailing arm movements of some of them for example.

Lots of sports have such examples. Look at golfer Jim Furyk. Terrible swing. Certainly not something anyone should try to emulate. Others completely revise their swing to improve. Tiger Woods is an example. He was already great, then changed his form to be even better.

Off hand I can't think of a top runner who worked to revise poor form in an attempt to become better, but there likely are examples to be found.
2010-05-14 10:39 PM
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Subject: RE: What causes problems/injuries with running.
Donskiman - 2010-05-14 6:21 PM
Scout7 - 2010-05-14 1:00  Can we really say elite runners have bad form? Especially when they are elite runners.


Yes. They overcame their poor form and exceled in spite of it.


Again, yes.

The classic example from running is Haile Gebrselassie.  He's one of the greatest runners ever, if not the greatest runner ever.

And he runs with a strangely bent arm that crosses his midline.  It's obviously bad form.  But we can't argue with all of his endless world records. 

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