General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I. Rss Feed  
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2010-05-19 12:59 PM

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Subject: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
Gerruy is one of the top OWS swimmers and coaches in the world. Period. He posted this over on ST ironicaly as part of a thread discussing the HTFU/T.I. thread we have over here. I think this sumarizes the debate very well and is worth a look



"To my knowledge, no good swimmers that I'm aware of race at low stroke rates of 55/min, and none train at 110 HR other than warm-up. I have coached for 27 years and raced open water quite successfully for 38 years with over 400 races under my belt as an athlete. Although there may be many alternative ways to prepare, none of my successes or anyone I know came from training that way.

The pro 10k race in Brazil last December saw an elite field of ten athletes managing the pace with a stroke rate range of between 76-82. When the break was made at the 7k mark, eventual winner, Trent Grimsley, went to a stroke rate of nearing 100/minute with a strong 6BK. The chase pack then ignited their rates to 84-92 with an increase to a 6BK. They were unable to catch him. They all largely held those rates for the final 3k.

I think much of this stroke rate confusion comes from the elegance and easy swimming taught by TI and others about total front quadrant swimming and massive rotation; this slows stroke rate, especially at the slower swimmer level, and those with weak or non-existant kicks. Also, to the swimmer without an extensive competitive background, which is the majority, they tend to misunderstand or be misled visually when watching great swimmers race. They see long, elegant, and sleek strokes above the water, being deceived by the rate of turnover (hand velocity) beneath the water, and the power/watts generated. That underwater stroke rate is what mystifies that observer as the arm velocity is significant relative to an average lap swimmer or aspiring triathlete, which is much of the TI audience to my understanding.

Stroke rates are critical to very fast swimming in open water – no matter what the age or level of competition. Train to get to those rates if you want to be competitive.

If Terry and others are not interested in fast swimming or in being the best they can be competitively, then rates in the 40s-60s are fine, comfortable, and enjoyable, but those rates in open water won't cut it to be competitive, or in producing ones optimal results. Those rates are good for leisure open water camps etc.One needs different gears: 55 rates, then 65 and 75 and 85 RPM etc. if they wish to be competitively successful in open water.

I'd also be pretty hard-pressed to believe any of the athletes that raced the Brazil 10k had heart rates of 110 at any point during their race. There is no substitute for hard work and deliberate, effective specific training. These modern 10k events call for just that, while it is equally true for all the 1- and 2-mile races and triathlon swim legs around the world. These athletes have to be able to accelerate and slow down, position themselves, and create boxed-in positions on others, thus requiring various stroke rate capabilities and heart rate changes. This is the Tour de France in the aquatic world. They need to practice all of this, and they do.....at least the ones who win consistently. Other than guys like Fran Crippen and Andrew Gemmell, medalists in the 2009 World Swimming Championships, who got up in the high 80s SPM with a corresponding fast-beat kick, many Americans still have a way to go.

Even for the audience that TI teaches: quite a bit of triathletes; their stroke rates are still too low from this coaches perspective. TI and Terry were, and are, tremendous assets to our sport, making contribution that are immeasurable. Many are grateful to them, especially me for what I have learned.

I recall when Terry sat in my office when I was co-publisher of Swimming World, SWIM, and Swimming Technique magazines, discussing his TI concept, I stated to him then as I do here: TI has its place in the sport…TI is a great business model, I applaud Terry on his very successful business acumen: teach the ABC, 1,2,3 of swimming. Their place in the sport is important and has been significant, it's just not "the" sport – especially at the most competitive ends of the spectrum, and even more specifically in dynamic open water racing.

Furthermore, trying to utilize pool athletes such as Popov's stroke count, rather than stroke rate, in a 50 free or the others such as Hackett, Thorpe, Phelps, Mellouli does not help the point. Taking a watch to their strokes over 15 sec., their stroke rates will usually run upward of 76-82 a minute and approaching almost 108/min for Popov in the 50 (Popov swam his world records 50 in 21.6 in 31 strokes, but over 100 stroke rate) and 96/min for Lezak in his recent Olympic relay swim. Please do not confuse the number of strokes in a length with stroke rate.

For open water, variable stroke rates in training is very important, as are variable heart rates, and intensity."
Gerry Rodrigues
swim coach - open water specialty


2010-05-19 1:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
thanks for Posting this Byran,  for those of us that don't often read ST.



Obviously having two "r"s in ones name is a sign of genius   Cool
2010-05-19 1:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
Gaarryy - 2010-05-19 12:28 PM

thanks for Posting this Byran,  for those of us that don't often read ST.


It's funny that it was posted in a thread over there which is about a thread over here.
2010-05-19 1:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
Actually a pretty funny thread over there.

I've enjoyed these back and forth posts on swimming.  It has changed my perspective a little bit.  I never really tried to swim that hard after teaching myself to swim using the TI video and book until a few weeks ago and am already seeing improvement trying to apply some of the thinking Gary has posted lately.

Still a ways to go (and I need more swim volume)...but it's all good stuff with little nuggets of knowledge coming from both sides.
2010-05-19 1:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
I am glad to see it posted.  As others have said, TI has its place in getting people comfortable in the water, and improving technique to a point.  That said, I've never gotten faster by doing the zipper drill.  I've only gotten faster by kicking my own a$$ in fast 100 sets that leave my arms feeling like jello.
2010-05-19 2:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
that thread has everything.

Power Cranks have even been brought into it...  

a true classic


2010-05-19 2:23 PM
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2010-05-19 4:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
Thanks for posting, Bryan.

I popped over to ST and took a read. Good stuff, I may have to spend more time over there.

Dan

2010-05-19 4:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
That's a great thread! Lots of hellaciously fast swimmers on that thread as well, including the venerable UCLA coach Gerry, who needs no introduction to the swimming world. 
2010-05-20 5:59 AM
in reply to: #2868694


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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
Rodriguez is misinformed about TI and consequently his critique of it is feeble.

TI does not teach you to have a slow stroke rate. It teaches you not to increase your stroke rate at the expense of losing efficiency. In other words don’t work harder for no gain.

If you check out the various descriptions of practice sets on the TI website you will find one of these from Terry Laughlin’s own sets.

I’ll highlight one part here of a multi-set training session:

DISTANCE: 200m
Time: 3.14 (which is 1.07 per 100m)
Stroke rate: 1.27 per second.

That stroke rate works out to a little over 76 per minute. Rodriguez says he knows no top swimmers that do less than that. So what’s he griping about! That’s what you can do with TI too.

But here’s the kicker. I doubt many triathletes here on BT could swim as few as 76 strokes per minute at 1.07/100m. My guess is. most would be 30% more strokes or greater. And that 30% more means a significant use of energy compared to someone who can maintain that speed at a much lower stroke rate!

Popov and others doing over 100 strokes per minute? Good luck doing that over 1500 metres or longer and then continue the next 2 legs of your TRI against someone who didn't waste as much energy!

Rodriguez implies TI teaches stoke rates of 40-50 per min. That’s incorrect. One may start at a low rate like this to initially learn good form, but once that is mastered, you would try to increase the rate while maintaining the same GOOD FORM of a lower rate.

A lot of the debate around TI focuses on the low “strokes-per-length” which TI definitely aims at; but the critics confuse this with stroke rate.

There are two parts to the equation, strokes per length AND the rate at which you stroke. TI focuses on both with the goal of obtaining optimum speed for the least effort.

Anybody can say “increase your stroke rate to go faster”. Any kid out of grammar school can give me that advise. It takes no thought.

But to learn how to go faster without ballooning your stroke rate…that requires a different skill set.


2010-05-20 8:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
Grey - 2010-05-20 6:59 AM  I’ll highlight one part here of a multi-set training session: DISTANCE: 200m Time: 3.14 (which is 1.07 per 100m) Stroke rate: 1.27 per second. That stroke rate works out to a little over 76 per minute.


With all due respect, your math is a little off.

If you're using a Tempo Trainer, then "Stroke rate: 1.27" means setting the Tempo Trainer at a setting of "1.27", and taking a stroke for every beep (i.e., 1 stroke every 1.27 seconds).  (Otherwise, it's impossible to measure taking 1.27 strokes every second)

So 1 stroke per 1.27 seconds (1str/1.27 sec.)*(60 sec./min) works out to 47 strokes/min.

I agree that TI teaches "don't work harder for no gain" (I've been using TI since I started swimming 2 yrs ago), but TI relies on "swim golf" to determine how much harder you have to work.  I cannot figure out how anyone can track time and stroke length for EACH LAP without a coach or assistant tracking results.



2010-05-20 9:20 AM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
Grey - 2010-05-20 4:59 AM Rodriguez is misinformed about TI and consequently his critique of it is feeble. TI does not teach you to have a slow stroke rate. It teaches you not to increase your stroke rate at the expense of losing efficiency. In other words don’t work harder for no gain. If you check out the various descriptions of practice sets on the TI website you will find one of these from Terry Laughlin’s own sets. I’ll highlight one part here of a multi-set training session: DISTANCE: 200m Time: 3.14 (which is 1.07 per 100m) Stroke rate: 1.27 per second. That stroke rate works out to a little over 76 per minute. Rodriguez says he knows no top swimmers that do less than that. So what’s he griping about! That’s what you can do with TI too. But here’s the kicker. I doubt many triathletes here on BT could swim as few as 76 strokes per minute at 1.07/100m. My guess is. most would be 30% more strokes or greater. And that 30% more means a significant use of energy compared to someone who can maintain that speed at a much lower stroke rate! Popov and others doing over 100 strokes per minute? Good luck doing that over 1500 metres or longer and then continue the next 2 legs of your TRI against someone who didn't waste as much energy! Rodriguez implies TI teaches stoke rates of 40-50 per min. That’s incorrect. One may start at a low rate like this to initially learn good form, but once that is mastered, you would try to increase the rate while maintaining the same GOOD FORM of a lower rate. A lot of the debate around TI focuses on the low “strokes-per-length” which TI definitely aims at; but the critics confuse this with stroke rate. There are two parts to the equation, strokes per length AND the rate at which you stroke. TI focuses on both with the goal of obtaining optimum speed for the least effort. Anybody can say “increase your stroke rate to go faster”. Any kid out of grammar school can give me that advise. It takes no thought. But to learn how to go faster without ballooning your stroke rate…that requires a different skill set.


Your math is way off. 200 in 3.14 is 1.57 not 1.07 per 100 and like was pointed out by another poster a stoke every 1.27 seconds does not equal 76 per minute. 
2010-05-20 10:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
Agree with basically everything in that post. Not a fan of TI when it comes to racing OW... or really racing anything, but even more so OW.

Thanks for posting Bryan.
2010-05-20 10:23 AM
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2010-05-21 9:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
This is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to mention something about HOW Gerry has developed his coaching expertise.

We have all seen great triathletes. We have all seen great runners. We have all seen great cyclists. But how many of us have seen great open water swimmers? How many of us can name more than a few great open water swimmers? I am talking about truly world-class open water swimmers, not good masters swimmers. Swimmers who can compete in a pool at any national or international swim meet and who have spent years in the oceans, lakes and rivers of the world, training and competing in all kinds of environments and water temperatures.

These great athletes have adapted and learned how to race against other world-class athletes and against the elements that includes both marine life. It is these individuals who Gerry coaches.

He spends hours analyzing the stroke counts, velocity and power parameters of their arm strokes and kick. He researches the 100-, 200- and 400-meter pool times and strategies used by all of the world's best competitors. He knows when, how and why a foreign athlete tends to veer into another swimmer, leading to an advantage. He knows the athletes who do not like the physicality of tight packs. He knows when the sprint begins in a race what side the top athletes will breathe (an important fact to know so you can pass on their "weak" side). He knows that the difference in water temperature can affect the performance of all athletes; some do better in water temperature at 58 degrees F vs. 68 degrees F v. 78 degrees F. These water temperature variances directly relate to when surges and certain tactics can be thrown in.

Gerry has researched the world's major race courses as far out as the Olympic 10K Marathon Swim course for the 2016 Rio Olympics and has already developed specific strategies for the tactical Olympic 10K Marathon Swim at the 2012 London Olympics (a 6-loop course to be held in 66-68 degree water with a certain amount of both left- and right-hand buoy turns.

For his athletes under his charge, he spells out loop-by-loop or mile-by-mile strategies for each course in order to maximum their strengths and exploit the weaknesses of their opponents. He develops specific workouts in the pool, in the open water and for dryland training so each athlete can execute those strategies. Gerry's knows that subtle and insignificant changes in one's stroke technique and racing tactics can lead to significant changes in times and placing.

His research and database of information goes back decades and is based on observations and participation in hundreds of races and thousands of athletes. The database includes thousands of photographs from races and hundreds of race videos and interviews with athletes of all ages, abilities and backgrounds. It is this arsenal of information, observations and data that he shares with his athletes. It is their tactical knowledge advantage over their competitors.

Fortunately, Gerry will share his unparalleled breath of knowledge and experiences at the Global Open Water Swimming Conference in Long Beach, California where he will publicly conduct an in-depth analysis of the world's best open water swimmers on June 5th. Olympic and USA Triathlon coaches from several countries will be flying in to hear how Gerry dissects a race, how he analyzes swimming techniques and his advice for swimmers who want to reach their potential. I very much look forward to listening to his analysis and learning from his experiences.
2010-05-21 6:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
He is absolutely spot on when he says TI has a place in swim training. For those of us who did not come from a swimming background TI has been a very effective tool. To say 'Get a Swim Coach', or work with a Masters group, has been very sloppy advice, which is totally dependent on the coaches ability, or finding a niche in the Masters group. TI presents a systematic process that allows inefficient swimmers to improve their swimming ability. After reaching this stage, coaching, masters group workouts, etc., become more effective. This debate will never end, because there are so many opinions chasing so many varieties of athletes.

I just wish there were a TI program for golf!



Edited by vonschnapps 2010-05-21 7:08 PM


2010-05-21 11:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
vonschnapps - 2010-05-21 7:59 PM He is absolutely spot on when he says TI has a place in swim training. For those of us who did not come from a swimming background TI has been a very effective tool. To say 'Get a Swim Coach', or work with a Masters group, has been very sloppy advice, which is totally dependent on the coaches ability, or finding a niche in the Masters group. TI presents a systematic process that allows inefficient swimmers to improve their swimming ability. After reaching this stage, coaching, masters group workouts, etc., become more effective. This debate will never end, because there are so many opinions chasing so many varieties of athletes. I just wish there were a TI program for golf!


+1 for us mere mortals.

I don't worship at the House of Terry nor use TI as an exclusive instruction method, but honestly the Easy Freestyle DVD is what helped this non-swimmer most in going from gassed @ 50M to swimming 2k straight over past 18mo on just 2-3 pool sessions/wk.  Admittedly this basic DVD does not get into the finer points of optimizing catch, pull, etc., nor does TI stress conditioning.  However the drills on basics such as balance, streamline, & rotation are best I've seen (and yes I have taken other non-TI lessons & bought other non-TI teaching stuff).  I know I must get my stroke rate up to get faster, and indeed this DVD's chapter on swimming faster states just that-Use a beeping trainer to gradually increase your stroke rate while maintaining your efficiency.  No recommended max stroke rate is ever stated.  What's the point of flailing the arms at 85-90 strokes/min if you loose efficiency big time (as I do) & wear yourself out for the bike/run???

BTW- Natural Golf might be that TI for golf program you're looking for.  (But I've got no time for golf since taking up tri ).
2010-05-22 7:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
I'm seeing this thread a bit belatedly but would like to offer some perspective on what seem to be clearly different approaches and philosophies between Gerry R and I.

Before going further I want to say that I've known Gerry for 20+ years, have great regard for his personal swimming accomplishments - he's much faster than me, and has been for years - his commitment to advancing the art of open water swimming, and his abilities as a coach. I also feel privileged to consider him a friend.

However: (i) Gerry and I coach entirely different groups of athletes and (ii) Gerry is simply misinformed about TI. His direct experience with TI is limited to observing about 90 minutes of a TI workshop at Pierce College in Woodland Hills in late 1996.

(Note: The reason Gerry came to that '96 workshop was to bring Lenny Krayzelburg. Lenny, a recent emigre from Ukraine, was training with Olympic coach Mark Schubert at the time, but - as Gerry said - was receiving no help with his freestyle technique. Gerry asked me to include Lenny in the workshop for one pool session. During that session, and in an additional 20 min of 1-on-1 Lenny's freestyle efficiency and fluency improved significantly, and Lenny has since expressed gratitude for my help on numerous occasions.) For those who may not be familiar, Lenny went on to win multiple Olympic and World championships and break world records in 100-200m back -- accomplishments with which I had nothing to do. However he swam some great legs on 800 Free Relays for USC and I do feel I contributed modestly to that.)

Back to the topic at hand:
1) Gerry coaches an entirely different group of athletes for an entirely different activity. His coaching focuses on young, elite-level, experienced and highly trained distance-swimming specialists. They have the neural and metabolic capacity to swim at stroke rates in a range of .6 to .7 sec/stroke.

Over 90 percent of the people TI coaches are middle-aged, relatively new, triathletes who are, essentially, beginning swimmers. It is categorically necessary for them to acquire and imprint fundamental efficiency and skills. And to do that it is categorically necessary for them to learn and practice at stroke rates in a range of 1.3 to 1.5 sec/stroke.

Further, when they race, the goal is NOT to Swim Fast, it is to complete a triathlon in the best way possible. And for athletes of this description - very new to swimming, relatively new to triathlon (I.E. BEGINNER TRIATHLETES - the title of this site as I have had to remind the "TI debunkers" numerous times) - the most sensible and strategic way to do so is to keep both SR and HR low during the swim. They can do far more to improve their overall position in the TRIATHLON by "saving heartbeats" for the bike and run. It takes far less energy to go a little faster in cycling or running than it does in swimming. Plus you will carry that improved pace for far longer on land, than in the water, resulting in time gains far greater than you could ever make by swimming faster/harder. Basic common sense, rather than misplaced macho-ism.

2) From Gerry: "If Terry and others are not interested in fast swimming or in being the best they can be competitively . . ."
I have no idea where Gerry gets this notion. I am nothing if not intensely competitive. I've won my age group in well over 90% of the 200 OW races I've swum. I have won USMS OW titles six times, broken USMS national OW records three times and been the #1 ranked OW swimmer in my age group.
I have also coached 5 other TI Coaches (none of whom were distinguished swimmers pre-TI) to USMS national OW titles and two of them to #1 national rankings In 2009, my training partner Dave Barra was #1 ranked in mens 40-44 and Ann Svenson in women's 60-64. Ann has won USMS titles and broken USMS Long Distance and Open Water records countless times.

We coach and train more experienced and skilled athletes according to their goals, needs and abilities. We do the same with less experienced athletes. But the two approaches are not the same.
2010-05-22 8:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Coach Gerry Rodrigues on OWS and T.I.
The pistol offense
The west coast offense
The triple option offense
The spread option offense
The Delaware Wing-t offense


The Eagle defense
the 4-3 defense
the 3-4 defense
the 46 defense

Which one is best?
8 different coaches will give you 8 different answers.....
Teams win with all of them

TI or not TI people win with all of them.....

Different coach different philosophy

Just saying.....

Edited by trisagain 2010-05-22 8:09 AM
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