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National debt breaks 13 trillion (Page 2)
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 2010-05-26 4:41 PM in reply to: #2884308 |
Member  1699    |  Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillionAcesFull - 2010-05-26 3:57 PM The problem is twofold. Firstly, we are spending too much. Duh. The second problem is that the govt is not collecting enough money. Taxes are evil, but they are a necessary evil. No president has ever cut taxes and gone to war at the same time. Until Bush. Stupid, stupid, stupid... You can blame Bush if you like, and he deserves some blame, but it is an order of magnitude below the blame Congress deserves for the debt. I blame Bush for not pushing back on the spending while his party was in control, but Obama gets the same blame for the past 18 months, and projected for the next 2 years at least. That said, let's throw the blame out of the picture. Spending cuts are needed. |
| 2010-05-26 5:05 PM in reply to: #2884308 |
Master 1795 Boynton Beach, FL | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion AcesFull - 2010-05-26 4:57 PM The second problem is that the govt is not collecting enough money. Taxes are evil, but they are a necessary evil. No president has ever cut taxes and gone to war at the same time. Until Bush. Stupid, stupid, stupid... |
| 2010-05-26 5:23 PM in reply to: #2884441 |
Champion 5615 | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion eberulf - 2010-05-26 5:41 PM AcesFull - 2010-05-26 3:57 PM You can blame Bush if you like, and he deserves some blame, but it is an order of magnitude below the blame Congress deserves for the debt. I blame Bush for not pushing back on the spending while his party was in control, but Obama gets the same blame for the past 18 months, and projected for the next 2 years at least. That said, let's throw the blame out of the picture. Spending cuts are needed. The problem is twofold. Firstly, we are spending too much. Duh. The second problem is that the govt is not collecting enough money. Taxes are evil, but they are a necessary evil. No president has ever cut taxes and gone to war at the same time. Until Bush. Stupid, stupid, stupid... I agree that spending cuts are needed but the debate inevitable reaches a NIMBY situation. The most frustrating are those who call for deficit reduction and, in the same breath, claim that it better not come from Medicare or Social Security. Is there any candidate who has openly called for significant cuts to Medicare and/or Social Security or, at least, change the statutes to render benefits as a function of current life expectancy instead of setting it in the mid-60s? |
| 2010-05-26 7:32 PM in reply to: #2884531 |
Champion 5522 Frisco, TX | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion CubeFarmGopher - 2010-05-26 5:23 PM eberulf - 2010-05-26 5:41 PM AcesFull - 2010-05-26 3:57 PM You can blame Bush if you like, and he deserves some blame, but it is an order of magnitude below the blame Congress deserves for the debt. I blame Bush for not pushing back on the spending while his party was in control, but Obama gets the same blame for the past 18 months, and projected for the next 2 years at least. That said, let's throw the blame out of the picture. Spending cuts are needed. The problem is twofold. Firstly, we are spending too much. Duh. The second problem is that the govt is not collecting enough money. Taxes are evil, but they are a necessary evil. No president has ever cut taxes and gone to war at the same time. Until Bush. Stupid, stupid, stupid... I agree that spending cuts are needed but the debate inevitable reaches a NIMBY situation. The most frustrating are those who call for deficit reduction and, in the same breath, claim that it better not come from Medicare or Social Security. Is there any candidate who has openly called for significant cuts to Medicare and/or Social Security or, at least, change the statutes to render benefits as a function of current life expectancy instead of setting it in the mid-60s? Nope, never - old people vote... Bush brought up that the system might need to be changed and was pilloried for it... from all sides I must say... |
| 2010-05-26 7:45 PM in reply to: #2884717 |
| Expert 691 Cape Elizabeth, Maine | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion We do not have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem... This is all we have to do to balance the budget, just go back to the 2007 budget and increase it only by inflation each year...bam, balanced budget. But some reason one side of the isle calls it a cut when you "don't" increase the budget at the rate you planned on and most Americans bought those lies. The money is in 4 pots Defense SSI Medicare Interest Look, each of us needs to be informed....please go here www.usdebtclock.org There is no free lunch. |
 2010-05-26 8:16 PM in reply to: #2884729 |
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| 2010-05-26 8:27 PM in reply to: #2884790 |
| Champion 5522 Frisco, TX | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion AcesFull - 2010-05-26 8:16 PM Blueraider_Mike - 2010-05-26 7:45 PM We do not have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem... This is all we have to do to balance the budget, just go back to the 2007 budget and increase it only by inflation each year...bam, balanced budget. But some reason one side of the isle calls it a cut when you "don't" increase the budget at the rate you planned on and most Americans bought those lies. The money is in 4 pots Defense SSI Medicare Interest Look, each of us needs to be informed....please go here www.usdebtclock.org There is no free lunch. We have a spending problem AND a revenue problem. We need to bring in more and spend less. When the politicos prove they can spend less then, and only then will I be OK letting them take more... Until they clean up the spending side, I see no reason to let them have more money... |
| 2010-05-26 9:21 PM in reply to: #2884790 |
| Expert 691 Cape Elizabeth, Maine | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion AcesFull - 2010-05-26 8:16 PM Blueraider_Mike - 2010-05-26 7:45 PM We do not have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem... This is all we have to do to balance the budget, just go back to the 2007 budget and increase it only by inflation each year...bam, balanced budget. But some reason one side of the isle calls it a cut when you "don't" increase the budget at the rate you planned on and most Americans bought those lies. The money is in 4 pots Defense SSI Medicare Interest Look, each of us needs to be informed....please go here www.usdebtclock.org There is no free lunch. We have a spending problem AND a revenue problem. We need to bring in more and spend less. No disrespect but you don't know what your talking about...who do you think should pay more? Please research the historical govt take...its about 19% of GDP regardless of tax rates. So increasing taxes on the ones that are paying WILL NOT bring in additional revenues into the govt coffers over time. Despite this undeniable truth, they are spending well over 20%. |
| 2010-05-26 11:28 PM in reply to: #2882959 |
| Expert 1690 | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion nothing will be solved until we limit our representatives to no more than 2 terms like our president. end career politicians and you will get better results. The problem is they are the ones who have to vote on it. |
| 2010-05-27 6:19 AM in reply to: #2884790 |
| New user 900 , | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion AcesFull - 2010-05-26 8:16 PM Blueraider_Mike - 2010-05-26 7:45 PM We do not have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem... This is all we have to do to balance the budget, just go back to the 2007 budget and increase it only by inflation each year...bam, balanced budget. But some reason one side of the isle calls it a cut when you "don't" increase the budget at the rate you planned on and most Americans bought those lies. The money is in 4 pots Defense SSI Medicare Interest Look, each of us needs to be informed....please go here www.usdebtclock.org There is no free lunch. We have a spending problem AND a revenue problem. We need to bring in more and spend less. No, its just a spending problem. If you don't spend more than you take in, there is no problem. If you stop promising to take care of everyone's needs; retirement, healthcare, housing, etc. there would be no need for additional revenue. The European socialist model has failed and is on the brink of collapse. The U.S. needs to wake up and make some difficult changes so we don't follow them down the crapper. |
| 2010-05-27 7:04 AM in reply to: #2883835 |
Master 2006 Portland, ME | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion Kido - 2010-05-26 1:47 PM can't they just print 13 trillion in $20's and settle it? Also, if I pay my 100k up front, right now, can I be exempt from paying taxes in the future? They'll have to print $26 trillion to pay the $13 trillion. Inflation is a pesky thing. |
| 2010-05-27 7:20 AM in reply to: #2884790 |
| Master 2006 Portland, ME | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion AcesFull - 2010-05-26 8:16 PM Blueraider_Mike - 2010-05-26 7:45 PM We do not have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem... This is all we have to do to balance the budget, just go back to the 2007 budget and increase it only by inflation each year...bam, balanced budget. But some reason one side of the isle calls it a cut when you "don't" increase the budget at the rate you planned on and most Americans bought those lies. The money is in 4 pots Defense SSI Medicare Interest Look, each of us needs to be informed....please go here www.usdebtclock.org There is no free lunch. We have a spending problem AND a revenue problem. We need to bring in more and spend less. We have a special interest problem. The myth that big business and big government are at odds with each other is just that, a myth. It's like the WWE. The big government and big business put a show on for the fans in the ring pretending to beat the crap out of each other but back stage they crack open a couple of beers and laugh about the show and the money they fleeced from the audience. Signs of it are seen everyday; Big banks supporting Bush's bailout, Obama's claiming he stuck it to big tobacco by signing legislation partially written by Phillip Morris, Health care regulation supported by commericals run by Big Pharma; Big oil's overwhelming financial support of Obama's campaign, Wall Street's support of the finance "reform" bill and recent mega fundraisers by Wall Street elites for Obama. The list goes on and on. Big government only grows bigger with big business and big business receives a skewed "free-market" with big government. The only way to stop it is to elect representatives who have proven records to reduce the size and scope of government. |
| 2010-05-27 10:08 AM in reply to: #2885176 |
| Master 2083 Houston, TX | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion NXS - 2010-05-27 6:19 AM AcesFull - 2010-05-26 8:16 PM Blueraider_Mike - 2010-05-26 7:45 PM We do not have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem... This is all we have to do to balance the budget, just go back to the 2007 budget and increase it only by inflation each year...bam, balanced budget. But some reason one side of the isle calls it a cut when you "don't" increase the budget at the rate you planned on and most Americans bought those lies. The money is in 4 pots Defense SSI Medicare Interest Look, each of us needs to be informed....please go here www.usdebtclock.org There is no free lunch. We have a spending problem AND a revenue problem. We need to bring in more and spend less. No, its just a spending problem. If you don't spend more than you take in, there is no problem. If you stop promising to take care of everyone's needs; retirement, healthcare, housing, etc. there would be no need for additional revenue. The European socialist model has failed and is on the brink of collapse. The U.S. needs to wake up and make some difficult changes so we don't follow them down the crapper. Depends on how quickly you want to be debt free. If you want it to take 30 yrs, then you cut spending and don't increase revenues. If you want it to take 20 yrs, then you cut spending and increase revenues. Totally depends on the angle from which you attack the problem and what you identify the problem to be. I would argue we have a two stage problem, the first being the Debt and the second being the budget. The budget should be addressed with the end goal of fixing the debt problem, initially. (I.E. close tax loopholes, cut spending, etc....) Once the debt is fixed, then the problem lies solely in the budget and I would agree with you to reduce revenues at that point. |
| 2010-05-27 6:05 PM in reply to: #2885265 |
| Elite 4564 Boise | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion Jackemy - 2010-05-27 6:20 AM AcesFull - 2010-05-26 8:16 PM Blueraider_Mike - 2010-05-26 7:45 PM We do not have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem... This is all we have to do to balance the budget, just go back to the 2007 budget and increase it only by inflation each year...bam, balanced budget. But some reason one side of the isle calls it a cut when you "don't" increase the budget at the rate you planned on and most Americans bought those lies. The money is in 4 pots Defense SSI Medicare Interest Look, each of us needs to be informed....please go here www.usdebtclock.org There is no free lunch. We have a spending problem AND a revenue problem. We need to bring in more and spend less. We have a special interest problem. The myth that big business and big government are at odds with each other is just that, a myth. It's like the WWE. The big government and big business put a show on for the fans in the ring pretending to beat the crap out of each other but back stage they crack open a couple of beers and laugh about the show and the money they fleeced from the audience. Signs of it are seen everyday; Big banks supporting Bush's bailout, Obama's claiming he stuck it to big tobacco by signing legislation partially written by Phillip Morris, Health care regulation supported by commericals run by Big Pharma; Big oil's overwhelming financial support of Obama's campaign, Wall Street's support of the finance "reform" bill and recent mega fundraisers by Wall Street elites for Obama. The list goes on and on. Big government only grows bigger with big business and big business receives a skewed "free-market" with big government. The only way to stop it is to elect representatives who have proven records to reduce the size and scope of government. I'm totally stealing that analogy. |
| 2010-05-27 8:01 PM in reply to: #2887250 |
| Master 2006 Portland, ME | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion JoshR - 2010-05-27 6:05 PM Jackemy - 2010-05-27 6:20 AM AcesFull - 2010-05-26 8:16 PM Blueraider_Mike - 2010-05-26 7:45 PM We do not have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem... This is all we have to do to balance the budget, just go back to the 2007 budget and increase it only by inflation each year...bam, balanced budget. But some reason one side of the isle calls it a cut when you "don't" increase the budget at the rate you planned on and most Americans bought those lies. The money is in 4 pots Defense SSI Medicare Interest Look, each of us needs to be informed....please go here www.usdebtclock.org There is no free lunch. We have a spending problem AND a revenue problem. We need to bring in more and spend less. We have a special interest problem. The myth that big business and big government are at odds with each other is just that, a myth. It's like the WWE. The big government and big business put a show on for the fans in the ring pretending to beat the crap out of each other but back stage they crack open a couple of beers and laugh about the show and the money they fleeced from the audience. Signs of it are seen everyday; Big banks supporting Bush's bailout, Obama's claiming he stuck it to big tobacco by signing legislation partially written by Phillip Morris, Health care regulation supported by commericals run by Big Pharma; Big oil's overwhelming financial support of Obama's campaign, Wall Street's support of the finance "reform" bill and recent mega fundraisers by Wall Street elites for Obama. The list goes on and on. Big government only grows bigger with big business and big business receives a skewed "free-market" with big government. The only way to stop it is to elect representatives who have proven records to reduce the size and scope of government. I'm totally stealing that analogy. No problem. Rumor has it that I stole it myself. |
| 2010-05-28 9:05 AM in reply to: #2885265 |
| Extreme Veteran 590 Sioux Falls, SD | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion Jackemy - 2010-05-27 7:20 AM It's like the WWE. The big government and big business put a show on for the fans in the ring pretending to beat the crap out of each other but back stage they crack open a couple of beers and laugh about the show and the money they fleeced from the audience. I heard Jesse Ventura say something very, very similar to this. I found it very thought provoking considering he's been involved in both pro wrestling and politics. I've got lots of friends who argue back and forth about who has the right plan: democrats or republicans. They seem to be blind to the fact that both sides are trying to screw us. IMHO right now the best thing we can do at election time is to vote against any incumbant regardless of party. It's painfully obvious that anyone currently in Washington isn't improving the situation. But that's just my opinion. |
| 2010-05-29 7:49 AM in reply to: #2888245 |
| Extreme Veteran 464 Fleetwood, PA | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion Tundra_Man - 2010-05-28 10:05 AM I've got lots of friends who argue back and forth about who has the right plan: democrats or republicans. They seem to be blind to the fact that both sides are trying to screw us. IMHO right now the best thing we can do at election time is to vote against any incumbant regardless of party. It's painfully obvious that anyone currently in Washington isn't improving the situation. But that's just my opinion. I agree! In PA we had a republican congressman who switched to dems because the republicans were not going to back him...Down with the incumbants! It would also be nice to hear about more towns that are trying to cut spending. Even my school district is idiotic- they cut math support (2 teachers at elementary level), but then hired a new football coach...uh, I mean hired a new teacher and immediately gave him the highest salary on our salary scale and also increased how much of a stipend the head football coach gets...the school board also didn't put his hiring in their minutes...hmmm...IDIOTS ALL AROUND!!! Time to put more food and water in my secret cave  |
| 2010-05-29 8:57 AM in reply to: #2889933 |
| Master 2006 Portland, ME | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion ferretracer - 2010-05-29 7:49 AM Tundra_Man - 2010-05-28 10:05 AM I've got lots of friends who argue back and forth about who has the right plan: democrats or republicans. They seem to be blind to the fact that both sides are trying to screw us. IMHO right now the best thing we can do at election time is to vote against any incumbant regardless of party. It's painfully obvious that anyone currently in Washington isn't improving the situation. But that's just my opinion. I agree! In PA we had a republican congressman who switched to dems because the republicans were not going to back him...Down with the incumbants! It would also be nice to hear about more towns that are trying to cut spending. Even my school district is idiotic- they cut math support (2 teachers at elementary level), but then hired a new football coach...uh, I mean hired a new teacher and immediately gave him the highest salary on our salary scale and also increased how much of a stipend the head football coach gets...the school board also didn't put his hiring in their minutes...hmmm...IDIOTS ALL AROUND!!! Time to put more food and water in my secret cave Hopefully the voters in my district share your feelings about incumbants as that will make me a state senator in November. One nice law that was passed in this state 3 years ago was that the school budgets go to the voters for approval. It seems to put the school board on notice that the budget process is done under the light of day. |
| 2010-05-30 1:33 PM in reply to: #2882959 |
| New Haven, CT | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion from what I see everyone thiks the government should just stop spending money. Lets eliminate all social welfare programs. No more support for arts, education and science. No federal regulations of any sort. Lets go totally libratarian and just have an army to protect us from the king invading and a postal service. How do you think that will turn out? Edited by jsklarz 2010-05-30 1:36 PM |
| 2010-05-30 10:37 PM in reply to: #2891081 |
| Champion 5522 Frisco, TX | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion jsklarz - 2010-05-30 1:33 PM from what I see everyone thiks the government should just stop spending money. Lets eliminate all social welfare programs. No more support for arts, education and science. No federal regulations of any sort. Lets go totally libratarian and just have an army to protect us from the king invading and a postal service. How do you think that will turn out? Let me address these in order: Social welfare is necessary, however, I believe in a helping hand that pulls people out of poverty, not hand outs forever Arts - yes, defund the arts - that is not the business of the federal government - kill NPR and PBS - let them survive on their own in the market place or perish. Education - yep, I'll say it, the feds have no business in preK-12 education (that includes head start which a money pit that gets no results) Leave education to the state and local government - despite decades of spending and mandates by the feds, our high school graduates still compare poorly to the other countries. Post office - cut them off from the public funding - raise the price of stamps if they need to and learn to be more efficient... Military - we still need them Federal employees - let them take a paycut like their private sector counterparts - that alone would save billions... Deleveraging and inflating our way out of the mess - get the feds out of the home ownership business, after they get done straightening out Fannie and Fredie, cut them loose from the implicit and explicit guarantees and congressional and executive meddling. We are so far in the hole right now, their is no way to inflate our way out without looking like the Weimar republic of the 20's and 30's... Kennedy era tax policy was one of tax cuts, so we agree there. I would also agree to re-impose Glass-Stegal, but the current push for financial "reform" just further complicates an already complicated system. |
| 2010-05-31 5:45 AM in reply to: #2891575 |
| New Haven, CT | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion ashort33 - 2010-05-30 11:37 PM jsklarz - 2010-05-30 1:33 PM from what I see everyone thiks the government should just stop spending money. Lets eliminate all social welfare programs. No more support for arts, education and science. No federal regulations of any sort. Lets go totally libratarian and just have an army to protect us from the king invading and a postal service. How do you think that will turn out? Let me address these in order: Social welfare is necessary, however, I believe in a helping hand that pulls people out of poverty, not hand outs forever Arts - yes, defund the arts - that is not the business of the federal government - kill NPR and PBS - let them survive on their own in the market place or perish. Education - yep, I'll say it, the feds have no business in preK-12 education (that includes head start which a money pit that gets no results) Leave education to the state and local government - despite decades of spending and mandates by the feds, our high school graduates still compare poorly to the other countries. Post office - cut them off from the public funding - raise the price of stamps if they need to and learn to be more efficient... Military - we still need them Federal employees - let them take a paycut like their private sector counterparts - that alone would save billions... Deleveraging and inflating our way out of the mess - get the feds out of the home ownership business, after they get done straightening out Fannie and Fredie, cut them loose from the implicit and explicit guarantees and congressional and executive meddling. We are so far in the hole right now, their is no way to inflate our way out without looking like the Weimar republic of the 20's and 30's... Kennedy era tax policy was one of tax cuts, so we agree there. I would also agree to re-impose Glass-Stegal, but the current push for financial "reform" just further complicates an already complicated system. look at T-bill rates, we are so far from 1930s germany/hyper inflation. I am not saying just print money but, print a little. inflation is running at about 0 right now, 2% would be very acceptable. Kennedy's cuts were cuts from the WWII tax regime, but would be substantial tax increases based on today's structure, particularly for the richest 1%. |
| 2010-05-31 6:37 AM in reply to: #2891710 |
| Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: National debt breaks 13 trillion jsklarz - 2010-05-31 6:45 AM ashort33 - 2010-05-30 11:37 PM jsklarz - 2010-05-30 1:33 PM from what I see everyone thiks the government should just stop spending money. Lets eliminate all social welfare programs. No more support for arts, education and science. No federal regulations of any sort. Lets go totally libratarian and just have an army to protect us from the king invading and a postal service. How do you think that will turn out? Let me address these in order: Social welfare is necessary, however, I believe in a helping hand that pulls people out of poverty, not hand outs forever Arts - yes, defund the arts - that is not the business of the federal government - kill NPR and PBS - let them survive on their own in the market place or perish. Education - yep, I'll say it, the feds have no business in preK-12 education (that includes head start which a money pit that gets no results) Leave education to the state and local government - despite decades of spending and mandates by the feds, our high school graduates still compare poorly to the other countries. Post office - cut them off from the public funding - raise the price of stamps if they need to and learn to be more efficient... Military - we still need them Federal employees - let them take a paycut like their private sector counterparts - that alone would save billions... Deleveraging and inflating our way out of the mess - get the feds out of the home ownership business, after they get done straightening out Fannie and Fredie, cut them loose from the implicit and explicit guarantees and congressional and executive meddling. We are so far in the hole right now, their is no way to inflate our way out without looking like the Weimar republic of the 20's and 30's... Kennedy era tax policy was one of tax cuts, so we agree there. I would also agree to re-impose Glass-Stegal, but the current push for financial "reform" just further complicates an already complicated system. look at T-bill rates, we are so far from 1930s germany/hyper inflation. I am not saying just print money but, print a little. inflation is running at about 0 right now, 2% would be very acceptable. Kennedy's cuts were cuts from the WWII tax regime, but would be substantial tax increases based on today's structure, particularly for the richest 1%. Kennedy also did not have Johnson's great society to pay for. Also Hauser's Law: tax receipts do not exceed 19-20% of GDP under any of the tax schemes the US has been under since the great depression. So, you better hope we grow more like Brazil and Asia then like Europe which is unlikely, since we seem to be adopting their social welfare scheme which lowers GDP growth Money is being printed right now, M1 has expanded by almost a trillion dollars or 1/14 of our pre recession economy. There is empirical evidence showing long term inflation as a result of the expansion of money stock. Note I said long term inflation not this weeks or this years. |
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