General Discussion Triathlon Talk » 56 mile bike training question for you pros... Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
2010-05-30 2:24 PM


10

Subject: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
Question for you pros.....I have Buffalo springs 1/2 ironman coming up the end of June..I did it last year for the first time ever and my bike was 3 hours and 15 minutes...I live on the course and did it today in 3 hours and 20 minutes...I have the whole month off...Do I need to do the 56 miles say every Sunday and Thursday with down time in between to recover?? Or do i need to do like 30 miles every other day, or just 20 miles everyday....Any advice?? Thanks, Brian


2010-05-30 2:32 PM
in reply to: #2891109

User image

Champion
7233
5000200010010025
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
when i am riding full time i prefer to ride more often vs longer

last year a lot more 1:30-2 hr as normal rides, weekly longer ride of 3 or os, and a LONG ride for me (3:30-4hr ) every 10-12 days.

what you do with that time is going to matter a lot as well though.

2 to 2:30 of HARD riding will do a lot more than 3 or 3:30 of just noodling around.
2010-05-30 2:38 PM
in reply to: #2891109

User image

Expert
774
5001001002525
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
I think as long as you ride for at least 1 hour at a time, it's all about the total hours and miles, although a weekly 56 miler would be a good idea. I would shoot for 150 miles / week if you have the time and energy.
2010-05-30 2:51 PM
in reply to: #2891109

User image

Champion
10154
500050001002525
Alabama
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
lbkironman - 2010-05-30 2:24 PM Question for you pros.....I have Buffalo springs 1/2 ironman coming up the end of June..I did it last year for the first time ever and my bike was 3 hours and 15 minutes...I live on the course and did it today in 3 hours and 20 minutes...I have the whole month off...Do I need to do the 56 miles say every Sunday and Thursday with down time in between to recover?? Or do i need to do like 30 miles every other day, or just 20 miles everyday....Any advice?? Thanks, Brian


Welcome aboard!  Good job on doing the HIM last year and good for you for signing up to do it again.  Bad on your for waiting till 4 weeks before the race to ask advice.  :-)

I really don't know how to advise you with this little time left.  Allowing two weeks to taper before your race really just gives you two good weeks to train hard.  If it were me, I'd bike 70+ mile long rides so come race day, 56 miles will seem short.  :-)  But that's just me.

~Mike
2010-05-30 3:07 PM
in reply to: #2891118

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2010-05-30 3:18 PM
in reply to: #2891109


10

Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
I have done a few olympic races already this season...I did one last week and beat my last years time by 20 minutes..I have been riding every other day 25 mile distances...No problems, but after the 56 today, and being really tired after, I thought about a change up..Yes I know its late..Just wondered what yall thought about how to handle the 56... I have the whole month off of work so I have the time to make the race a priority...Thank you for the help!  Brian


2010-05-30 4:27 PM
in reply to: #2891109

Champion
10471
500050001001001001002525
Dallas, TX
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
lbkironman - 2010-05-30 2:24 PM

Question for you pros.....I have Buffalo springs 1/2 ironman coming up the end of June..I did it last year for the first time ever and my bike was 3 hours and 15 minutes...I live on the course and did it today in 3 hours and 20 minutes...I have the whole month off...Do I need to do the 56 miles say every Sunday and Thursday with down time in between to recover?? Or do i need to do like 30 miles every other day, or just 20 miles everyday....Any advice?? Thanks, Brian


Well, you have a month left. 2 weeks of that is taper. So essentially you have 2 weeks to get your training in.

Hard to say what your training has been up to till point, as your Logs are empty.

Over training isn't going to help... but riding 60-75 miles 2-4 times will help some. When I do HIM training, I ride 60 miles 2 times a month... 75 miles one time a month... and one weekend is recovery. I also have two shorter rides during the week (one 30 miles and the other hill training).

Honestly, your training happened in the last 2 months... it doesn't happen in 2 weeks... ya know?

Do what you can and don't over train.

And if you have a faster bike this year... great. If you don't... then that is OK... we don't do this for money. Life will go on.



Edited by KSH 2010-05-30 4:28 PM
2010-05-30 5:50 PM
in reply to: #2891109

Expert
2555
20005002525
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
2 weeks taper? I guess I didn't get that memo as I did 2 races in the 8 days prior to my last HIM and had a 27 minute PR.

The advice from NewBz is spot on. Follow it and you'll do much better on the bike.
2010-05-30 6:40 PM
in reply to: #2891109

Member
123
100
Roswell
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
For that race I'd pick that long nasty hill(I'm a big guy, all those hills were nasty) and do threshold repeats on it. Say 10-12 in a 40 mile ride.
2010-05-30 6:44 PM
in reply to: #2891266

Champion
6503
50001000500
NOVA - Ironic for an Endurance Athlete
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
Donskiman - 2010-05-30 5:50 PM 2 weeks taper? I guess I didn't get that memo as I did 2 races in the 8 days prior to my last HIM and had a 27 minute PR.

The advice from NewBz is spot on. Follow it and you'll do much better on the bike.


Maybe you could have had a 35 minute PR with well rested muscles?

I certainly need, although I do not want, a two week taper to prepare for Oly, Mary & HIM.  My legs a ravaged with training pains.
2010-05-30 6:49 PM
in reply to: #2891118

Master
2426
200010010010010025
Central Indiana
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
newbz - 2010-05-30 3:32 PM .......2 to 2:30 of HARD riding will do a lot more than 3 or 3:30 of just noodling around.


^^^^^

Since you've ridden the distance before, not sure that relatively slow 56+mi rides would help you much.  But in the untrained/undertrained cyclists a couple interval sessions per week (never on consecutive days) have led to improved TT performance in just 4-8 weeks.  I know you don't have that much time, but it's worth a shot to do 4 HIT sessions over next 2 weeks before tapering.

You gotta ride faster to get faster.  That said, saddle time is important too.  And many feel that a slow recovery ride (very low effort) the day after a hard bike (or run) is good for recovery.  I know many bike racers who do M-W-F hard training rides with easy T-Th recovery rides.  Since they race weekends, Weds tends to be the hardest training ride.


2010-05-30 7:17 PM
in reply to: #2891152

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
PennState - 2010-05-30 2:07 PM

newbz - 2010-05-30 3:32 PM

when i am riding full time i prefer to ride more often vs longer

last year a lot more 1:30-2 hr as normal rides, weekly longer ride of 3 or os, and a LONG ride for me (3:30-4hr ) every 10-12 days.

what you do with that time is going to matter a lot as well though.

2 to 2:30 of HARD riding will do a lot more than 3 or 3:30 of just noodling around.


I agree. Higher intensity rides of 2-2.5 hours will be more useful than 3+ hours at an easy pace.


Well, I think it's important to define "HARD" If by "Hard" you mean riding for 2 hours at say 80% of your max HR, I would agree. I think though that tempo and interval really "HARD" training sessions are also beneficial. Tempo would be riding for say an hour during a two hour ride at your Half IM intensity or intervals riding a set time or distance at Olympic paced effort with some recovery in between.
2010-05-31 6:33 AM
in reply to: #2891343

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2010-05-31 8:59 AM
in reply to: #2891266

Champion
10471
500050001001001001002525
Dallas, TX
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
Donskiman - 2010-05-30 5:50 PM

2 weeks taper? I guess I didn't get that memo as I did 2 races in the 8 days prior to my last HIM and had a 27 minute PR.

The advice from NewBz is spot on. Follow it and you'll do much better on the bike.


I gave the two week taper based off of what MANY training plans give a person. It's pretty standard stuff. And a two week taper does not mean two weeks of rest... it just means maybe reducing the distance each week little by little but keeping the intensity high.

Obviously, each person can make their own decision with regards to the proper taper.

And... oddly enough I only see running on your logs. Do you log your tri stuff here?





Edited by KSH 2010-05-31 9:02 AM
2010-05-31 10:46 AM
in reply to: #2891862

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2010-05-31 11:02 AM
in reply to: #2891975

Champion
10154
500050001002525
Alabama
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
PennState - 2010-05-31 10:46 AM
KSH - 2010-05-31 9:59 AM
Donskiman - 2010-05-30 5:50 PM 2 weeks taper? I guess I didn't get that memo as I did 2 races in the 8 days prior to my last HIM and had a 27 minute PR.

The advice from NewBz is spot on. Follow it and you'll do much better on the bike.
I gave the two week taper based off of what MANY training plans give a person. It's pretty standard stuff. And a two week taper does not mean two weeks of rest... it just means maybe reducing the distance each week little by little but keeping the intensity high. Obviously, each person can make their own decision with regards to the proper taper. And... oddly enough I only see running on your logs. Do you log your tri stuff here?
I think what Don was referring to is that many plans call for a 2 week taper, but that there are many people who question the value of a 2 week taper. The original concept of periodization along with tapering (developed by the Soviets for olympic athletes) is not a new one. But in *MY* opinion, 2 weeks is just 2 much for most of us mere mortals. *I* think people de-train a lot with a 2 week taper (yes I know you are not doing 'nothing'). The 2 week taper I believe is best suited for very high level fitness athletes who's slight loss in fitness is OK because there level is so high to allow peak performance. I would certainly not tell you (KSH) to change your plan at this stage. All I really wanted to do was discuss that there are people who really question the 2 week taper concept, that's all


I'd rather err on the side of being fully rested/recovered come race day...because I think for an endurance event, being rested is more important than any potential gains one might make in endurance 'performance' in two weeks. 

~Mike



2010-05-31 11:17 AM
in reply to: #2891997

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
Rogillio - 2010-05-31 10:02 AM
I'd rather err on the side of being fully rested/recovered come race day...because I think for an endurance event, being rested is more important than any potential gains one might make in endurance 'performance' in two weeks. 

~Mike



It's not performance "gains" you are looking for during that 2 week period, is holding on to peak fitness that's the key. If you back off volume too soon and intensity, you can actually end up sluggish and less sharp come race day.
2010-05-31 11:23 AM
in reply to: #2892020

Master
2355
20001001001002525
Houston, TX
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
bryancd - 2010-05-31 11:17 AM
It's not performance "gains" you are looking for during that 2 week period, is holding on to peak fitness that's the key. If you back off volume too soon and intensity, you can actually end up sluggish and less sharp come race day.


x2, I think a lot of people back off too much going into races. I always have a few hard workouts/days the week of a race. Keeps me feeling sharp and ready to roll.

Lately I've been doing 3 really hard rides a week with a couple really really easy rides a week. Seems to be working. Haven't done anything real long either and the ones I've done have been something like 2 hours at above HIM effort followed by a super easy 1-2 hours.
2010-05-31 11:33 AM
in reply to: #2891975

Champion
10471
500050001001001001002525
Dallas, TX
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
PennState - 2010-05-31 10:46 AM

KSH - 2010-05-31 9:59 AM

Donskiman - 2010-05-30 5:50 PM

2 weeks taper? I guess I didn't get that memo as I did 2 races in the 8 days prior to my last HIM and had a 27 minute PR.

The advice from NewBz is spot on. Follow it and you'll do much better on the bike.


I gave the two week taper based off of what MANY training plans give a person. It's pretty standard stuff. And a two week taper does not mean two weeks of rest... it just means maybe reducing the distance each week little by little but keeping the intensity high.

Obviously, each person can make their own decision with regards to the proper taper.

And... oddly enough I only see running on your logs. Do you log your tri stuff here?





I think what Don was referring to is that many plans call for a 2 week taper, but that there are many people who question the value of a 2 week taper.

The original concept of periodization along with tapering (developed by the Soviets for olympic athletes) is not a new one. But in *MY* opinion, 2 weeks is just 2 much for most of us mere mortals.

*I* think people de-train a lot with a 2 week taper (yes I know you are not doing 'nothing'). The 2 week taper I believe is best suited for very high level fitness athletes who's slight loss in fitness is OK because there level is so high to allow peak performance.

I would certainly not tell you (KSH) to change your plan at this stage. All I really wanted to do was discuss that there are people who really question the 2 week taper concept, that's all


Which yes, I see the validity in your statements. I question the 2 week taper myself. But not knowing the OP's training, base fitness, etc. it's safe to say he will probably do a two week taper. It would be different if we could see his training volume up until this point and his history in the sport.

In 2007, at my first HIM a two week taper was probably needed. Now days, I'm not so sure. I did a two week taper in 2009 for my HIM and I felt like my bike suffered. My suffered, I mean my legs were sore like they when I start back up with my bike fitness. I had fatigued in my legs I usually only have when I don't have the miles on my bike under me.

I even pondered today what my taper will look like in September. I don't think my standard 60 mile bike ride the week before my race will hurt my performance. But then again I do that every weekend, it's a standard ride. Whereas for someone else, that might be a once a month thing... so I wouldn't tell everyone to do that.



2010-05-31 2:03 PM
in reply to: #2891109

Coach
9167
5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: 56 mile bike training question for you pros...
Fitness-Fatigue=Form (Performance).

A taper allows an athlete to recover from fatigue, typically at a faster rate than fitness is lost.

For the OP, with 4 weeks left you have to weight how much fitness can you gain in 2 weeks that will make a 2 week taper worthwhile, likewise how much fatigue can you build up in 2 weeks that will make a 2 week taper necessary.

I realize the OP has been training up until now, but even with having a month off from work, it would be foolish to suddenly and dramatically increase the training volume because the time is available.

It's possible to train right up to a few days before the race assuming the training load is reasonable and logical and not really need any taper at all. A race can be thought of as a "peak" performance (which includes a taper of 1-3 weeks depending on race distance) or as a "breakthrough" performance where race day is actually more and/or harder than what they've done before (with enough rest from the previous harder workouts to perform on race day)

I'm not validating one approach vs. the other, simply that there is no right or wrong way to train, aside from don't get injured with overtraining. Four weeks is a lot of time to gain fitness to have a good performance in your upcoming race. However, it's clearly not enough time to maximize your potential for the upcoming race.

practically, I'd do a long ride once a week, say of 60ish, then 65ish mile (70 tops), with the last really long ride leaving 2 weeks until race day. In between I'd do some interval work betweeen tempo and threshold pace, such as 3 x 20 minutes at tempo or close to race pace. You can build from week to week with 2 x 15, 2 x 20, 2 x 25, 2 x 30 efforts in "sweet spot" range. You also will need to do several brick workouts between now and then. One of my favorites are race pace bike followed by race pace run in shorter, repeated intervals (brick reps). Say 30 min bike/20 min run close to race pace, rest for 5 minutes repeat twice. Again you can build up to this type of workout from week to week until the week before race day.

Just some thoughts...
New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » 56 mile bike training question for you pros... Rss Feed