Swim Myth #9.....busted.
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2010-06-15 6:23 PM |
Regular 52 | Subject: Swim Myth #9.....busted. Swim Myth #9:When it comes to swimming fast, kicking is overrated. Kicking is anything but overrated. As some of you learned from my earlier post, It's in his Kick.... I believe that it is the power of the kick that separates the great swimmers from the not-so-great ones, more than anything else. But here is the problem. First, even if you are stellar on the bike and run, which, by definition means you have strong legs, that does not mean you will be a strong kicker in the water. In fact, if you are relatively new to the water, the chances of you developing a fast kick are slim and none. So what do you do? A six beat kick can potentially serve four functions; 1)provide propulsion 2) provide lift 3) act as part of the stabilizing force for your pull and 4) sustain a more constant speed. If you can't kick fast, you aren't going to get much propulsion, but that is ok because most of it comes from the arms anyway. You can, however, even with a weaker kick, still get lift and counter-force for your arm pull...both very worthwhile. So don't give up on the kick. If you can wear a wetsuit, you don't have to worry about the lift part, but you still need the counter-force to improve your dps. A two beat kick can still provide that counter force you need and give you some lift...and with a lot less energy expense; not a bad way to go for a triathlete. So here is my advice to you. Work your legs in practice, because you still need to be able to kick. But don't dwell on the legs. Your precious little time to train could be better spent on some hard pull sets or working on getting your stroke rate up. Or learning to swim with high elbows and head down. In racing, use either a two beat or a soft 6 beat kick, except for the last 100 meters of the swim. Turn the power up a notch or two on the kick for the end so that when you stand up and start running to the transition zone, your legs have some blood flowing in them and still remember how to run. Gary Sr. |
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2010-06-15 6:28 PM in reply to: #2924011 |
Veteran 126 | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. This is great news for me since I do have a weak kick. I have been trying to learn how to kick better for balance and lift not so much for propulsion now. I would like to have my kick be much better then it is but have so much other work to do that is not a top priority for me now. |
2010-06-15 6:37 PM in reply to: #2924011 |
Expert 1690 | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. when i swim my kick is the first thing to fall apart, and i know i need to work on it. Its frustrating sometimes trying to put all the pieces together. |
2010-06-15 7:40 PM in reply to: #2924011 |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. After a great phone conversation with someone I trust, implicitly (just today), I just finished kicking drills for 1/2 my swim workout. Back at it, tomorrow. |
2010-06-15 8:11 PM in reply to: #2924011 |
Veteran 288 | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. Changing your kicking the last 100 yards or so at the end of the swim interests me as this has caused me trouble in races. I have a 2 beat now and have not raced that way yet but would like to know more about that aspect of finishing off the swim with more of a 6 beat kick. Can you over do the finish kick or how do you know how much effort for the finish kick? |
2010-06-15 9:16 PM in reply to: #2924011 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. garyhallsr - 2010-06-15 4:23 PM Swim Myth #9:When it comes to swimming fast, kicking is overrated. Kicking is anything but overrated. As some of you learned from my earlier post, It's in his Kick.... I believe that it is the power of the kick that separates the great swimmers from the not-so-great ones, more than anything else. But here is the problem. First, even if you are stellar on the bike and run, which, by definition means you have strong legs, that does not mean you will be a strong kicker in the water. In fact, if you are relatively new to the water, the chances of you developing a fast kick are slim and none. So what do you do? A six beat kick can potentially serve four functions; 1)provide propulsion 2) provide lift 3) act as part of the stabilizing force for your pull and 4) sustain a more constant speed. If you can't kick fast, you aren't going to get much propulsion, but that is ok because most of it comes from the arms anyway. You can, however, even with a weaker kick, still get lift and counter-force for your arm pull...both very worthwhile. So don't give up on the kick. If you can wear a wetsuit, you don't have to worry about the lift part, but you still need the counter-force to improve your dps. A two beat kick can still provide that counter force you need and give you some lift...and with a lot less energy expense; not a bad way to go for a triathlete. So here is my advice to you. Work your legs in practice, because you still need to be able to kick. But don't dwell on the legs. Your precious little time to train could be better spent on some hard pull sets or working on getting your stroke rate up. Or learning to swim with high elbows and head down. In racing, use either a two beat or a soft 6 beat kick, except for the last 100 meters of the swim. Turn the power up a notch or two on the kick for the end so that when you stand up and start running to the transition zone, your legs have some blood flowing in them and still remember how to run. Gary Sr. Money. Have never been happier to see something posted on this site by someone who really knows what they're talking about than the above. |
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2010-06-15 9:26 PM in reply to: #2924011 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. Good post and I agree. You need to have a good kick in order to not use it much. |
2010-06-15 9:46 PM in reply to: #2924011 |
Lethbridge, Alberta | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. I'm happy to see a consensus on this one. I've only been at this a few years and I've been working on the kick drills right along with everything else whether they're in vogue or not. My kick is still not fast but it's a lot better than it was. I even try to remember to stretch the ankles now and then. I think that would help more if I remembered more often. Edited by Micawber 2010-06-15 9:59 PM |
2010-06-15 11:07 PM in reply to: #2924011 |
Master 3888 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. Timing on this one is perfect. Just got back from masters swim session where I had a 10 minute discussion with a very good swimmer (recently swam 200 yards in two minutes flat, he's over 50 years old). I told him my backstroke kick was faster than my freestyle kick with kickboard. I asked if that was normal, he wasn't sure but didn't think so. So I did a 50 yd "time trial" FS kick with the board then did a 50 yd kick on my back, with arms extended. My BS kick was 15 seconds faster than my FS kick! I think I bend my legs a little more with the BS. It's hard to tell why I'm so slow, guess I need someone to look at my kick via underwater camera or something like that. |
2010-06-15 11:34 PM in reply to: #2924406 |
Extreme Veteran 516 Chicago | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. reecealan - 2010-06-15 11:07 PM Timing on this one is perfect. Just got back from masters swim session where I had a 10 minute discussion with a very good swimmer (recently swam 200 yards in two minutes flat, he's over 50 years old). I told him my backstroke kick was faster than my freestyle kick with kickboard. I asked if that was normal, he wasn't sure but didn't think so. So I did a 50 yd "time trial" FS kick with the board then did a 50 yd kick on my back, with arms extended. My BS kick was 15 seconds faster than my FS kick! I think I bend my legs a little more with the BS. It's hard to tell why I'm so slow, guess I need someone to look at my kick via underwater camera or something like that. Crazy! I'm the exact same way, and I kinda like backstroke kick drills. I really never understood why my kick sucks so much. In high school I was our team's fastest freestyler at all distances from 50yds to 500yds, but put me against any one of my teammates on the kickboard and I get blown out of the water. I always blamed it on my small feet, but I'm sure that's not the problem. How does one get better at kicking...don't tell me more kicking because I have kick sets in all my workouts. |
2010-06-15 11:45 PM in reply to: #2924421 |
Master 3888 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. I can't even use the small foot excuse, I wear a size 12. |
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2010-06-16 7:27 AM in reply to: #2924421 |
Member 212 Bedford, NH, USA | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. tbcoffee - 2010-06-16 12:34 AM reecealan - 2010-06-15 11:07 PM Timing on this one is perfect. Just got back from masters swim session where I had a 10 minute discussion with a very good swimmer (recently swam 200 yards in two minutes flat, he's over 50 years old). I told him my backstroke kick was faster than my freestyle kick with kickboard. I asked if that was normal, he wasn't sure but didn't think so. So I did a 50 yd "time trial" FS kick with the board then did a 50 yd kick on my back, with arms extended. My BS kick was 15 seconds faster than my FS kick! I think I bend my legs a little more with the BS. It's hard to tell why I'm so slow, guess I need someone to look at my kick via underwater camera or something like that. Crazy! I'm the exact same way, and I kinda like backstroke kick drills. I really never understood why my kick sucks so much. In high school I was our team's fastest freestyler at all distances from 50yds to 500yds, but put me against any one of my teammates on the kickboard and I get blown out of the water. I always blamed it on my small feet, but I'm sure that's not the problem. How does one get better at kicking...don't tell me more kicking because I have kick sets in all my workouts. Same here. I'm lame on FS kick speed but zip right along on BS kicking. I must be doing them very differently, as I get exhausted on FS kicks but not on BS kicks. |
2010-06-16 8:15 AM in reply to: #2924406 |
Veteran 277 Syracuse, NY | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. reecealan - 2010-06-15 11:07 PM my backstroke kick was faster than my freestyle kick with kickboard. It's probably because of your body position. Try getting rid of the kickboard and putting your face in the water. Better yet, try the one arm balance drills where you kick on your side with one arm extended, and work on your body position while you give your legs a workout! |
2010-06-16 8:36 AM in reply to: #2924011 |
Champion 5376 PA | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. Wow... my legs have been along for the ride. I pretty much only kick to assist in helping the body roll. Looks like I'm going to have to incorporate some kick drills into my swim workout. |
2010-06-16 8:39 AM in reply to: #2924872 |
Expert 1066 Raleigh | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. Pector55 - 2010-06-16 8:36 AM Wow... my legs have been along for the ride. I pretty much only kick to assist in helping the body roll. Looks like I'm going to have to incorporate some kick drills into my swim workout. x2. Wish I had Chuck Norris roundhouse kick! |
2010-06-16 12:53 PM in reply to: #2924011 |
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2010-06-16 12:59 PM in reply to: #2925828 |
Champion 9060 Charlottesville, Virginia | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. So, what exactly is an 2, 4, 6, etc beat kick? I kick when I swim, it doesn't move me very far when trying kicking drills. When wearing a wetwuit in OWS I sometimes even forget to kick. |
2010-06-16 1:24 PM in reply to: #2924011 |
Veteran 277 Syracuse, NY | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. A 2 beat kick is two kicks per arm stroke. A 4 beat kick is " " A six beat kick is more or less constant kicking. |
2010-06-16 1:27 PM in reply to: #2924406 |
Elite 2645 Phoenix, AZ | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. reecealan - 2010-06-15 9:07 PM Timing on this one is perfect. Just got back from masters swim session where I had a 10 minute discussion with a very good swimmer (recently swam 200 yards in two minutes flat, he's over 50 years old). I told him my backstroke kick was faster than my freestyle kick with kickboard. I asked if that was normal, he wasn't sure but didn't think so. So I did a 50 yd "time trial" FS kick with the board then did a 50 yd kick on my back, with arms extended. My BS kick was 15 seconds faster than my FS kick! I think I bend my legs a little more with the BS. It's hard to tell why I'm so slow, guess I need someone to look at my kick via underwater camera or something like that. I'll bet you're in a head-up, legs-down position when you have a kickboard. That will slow you down a ton. You need to get more horizontal. |
2010-06-16 2:58 PM in reply to: #2925925 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. steves_training - 2010-06-16 1:24 PM A 2 beat kick is two kicks per arm stroke. A 4 beat kick is " " A six beat kick is more or less constant kicking. Actually it's 2 kicks per cycle, or 1 kick for every pull for a 2 beat kick. |
2010-06-16 5:14 PM in reply to: #2924791 |
Extreme Veteran 1175 Langley, BC, 'Wet Coast' Canada | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. steves_training - 2010-06-16 6:15 AM reecealan - 2010-06-15 11:07 PM my backstroke kick was faster than my freestyle kick with kickboard. It's probably because of your body position. Try getting rid of the kickboard and putting your face in the water. Better yet, try the one arm balance drills where you kick on your side with one arm extended, and work on your body position while you give your legs a workout!Steve Can I ask a question about these two exercises? On the first one (putting face in the water w/o kickboard), what do the arms do? Where are they held? I assume both are out in front?? Second exercise, on the side... Same thing with the arms.What does the non-extended arm do? Is the kick now done 'sideways', with the hips now perpendicular to the water's surface? Are there video links to examples of theses drills? Many thanks kelly |
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2010-06-16 5:41 PM in reply to: #2924662 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. MaverickNH - 2010-06-16 7:27 AM tbcoffee - 2010-06-16 12:34 AM reecealan - 2010-06-15 11:07 PM Timing on this one is perfect. Just got back from masters swim session where I had a 10 minute discussion with a very good swimmer (recently swam 200 yards in two minutes flat, he's over 50 years old). I told him my backstroke kick was faster than my freestyle kick with kickboard. I asked if that was normal, he wasn't sure but didn't think so. So I did a 50 yd "time trial" FS kick with the board then did a 50 yd kick on my back, with arms extended. My BS kick was 15 seconds faster than my FS kick! I think I bend my legs a little more with the BS. It's hard to tell why I'm so slow, guess I need someone to look at my kick via underwater camera or something like that. Crazy! I'm the exact same way, and I kinda like backstroke kick drills. I really never understood why my kick sucks so much. In high school I was our team's fastest freestyler at all distances from 50yds to 500yds, but put me against any one of my teammates on the kickboard and I get blown out of the water. I always blamed it on my small feet, but I'm sure that's not the problem. How does one get better at kicking...don't tell me more kicking because I have kick sets in all my workouts. Same here. I'm lame on FS kick speed but zip right along on BS kicking. I must be doing them very differently, as I get exhausted on FS kicks but not on BS kicks. Not sure if this is an answer or not to the above question, but a few weeks back I gave a swim clinic to a club in the Houston area. I had everyone kick on their stomach (head down, streamlined) and then on their back (streamlined). Most were slow to adaquate on their stomach, but on the first 25 on their back it was a mess. Knees were popping out of the water, etc. Once they dialed it in a little the back kicking got much much better. We then went back to the stomach and many reverted back to there old ways. My takeaway on this was that on your back there are some easier cues that will help you correct (i.e. knees breaking the surface of the water among others) so they are able to catch and correct. On your stomach though, you can't see what you're doing wrong and so the problems don't get corrected as quickly. Again, not sure if this is helpful, but I found it interesting. |
2010-06-16 5:50 PM in reply to: #2924011 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. ^^X2, I do a lot of kick sets on my back. |
2010-06-16 5:52 PM in reply to: #2924662 |
Master 2356 Westlake Village , Ca. | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. MaverickNH - 2010-06-16 5:27 AM tbcoffee - 2010-06-16 12:34 AM reecealan - 2010-06-15 11:07 PM Timing on this one is perfect. Just got back from masters swim session where I had a 10 minute discussion with a very good swimmer (recently swam 200 yards in two minutes flat, he's over 50 years old). I told him my backstroke kick was faster than my freestyle kick with kickboard. I asked if that was normal, he wasn't sure but didn't think so. So I did a 50 yd "time trial" FS kick with the board then did a 50 yd kick on my back, with arms extended. My BS kick was 15 seconds faster than my FS kick! I think I bend my legs a little more with the BS. It's hard to tell why I'm so slow, guess I need someone to look at my kick via underwater camera or something like that. Crazy! I'm the exact same way, and I kinda like backstroke kick drills. I really never understood why my kick sucks so much. In high school I was our team's fastest freestyler at all distances from 50yds to 500yds, but put me against any one of my teammates on the kickboard and I get blown out of the water. I always blamed it on my small feet, but I'm sure that's not the problem. How does one get better at kicking...don't tell me more kicking because I have kick sets in all my workouts. Same here. I'm lame on FS kick speed but zip right along on BS kicking. I must be doing them very differently, as I get exhausted on FS kicks but not on BS kicks. Just out of curiosity, are you guys kicking with the board breaking the surface...kind of like a boogie board? That can slow you down a ton. Try depressing the board so that it is about 6"-1' below the surface and flat with a head down position....much more streamline.... Also keep in mind, kicking backstroke with NO BOARD offers much less resistance. Are you guys faster or slower if you do the same drill...ie, both drills in streamline with no board...that would be the true test. |
2010-06-16 5:55 PM in reply to: #2924011 |
Master 2356 Westlake Village , Ca. | Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted. Here is a good video on how to use a kickboard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyV_kyKzSzU |
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