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2010-06-18 6:46 PM

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Subject: Swimming experts
 Every time I swim in a pool I get winded. My current workouts are around 2000 yards. Today I did my first OWS in the ocean. I set out to swim a half a mile and ended up doing a mile. I was not winded and felt like I could have gone another mile.

 Why was it so much easier? ( I know your more buoyant is that the only reason


2010-06-18 6:59 PM
in reply to: #2931154

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Master
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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
Because, perhaps, that the walls of the pool give one the opportunity to rest, and catch a breath.  Then it takes extra energy to push off the wall.  Open water allows one to get into a rhythm that a pool does not. 

Just a notion or two.
2010-06-18 8:53 PM
in reply to: #2931154

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
flip turns often mess up breathing rhythm as well, making it harder to get the groove on.
2010-06-19 7:51 AM
in reply to: #2931154

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
Does anyone NOT push off the wall....so as not to disrupt their rhythm?  I've thought of that.
2010-06-19 8:28 AM
in reply to: #2931154

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
I would think you'd need some push just to maintain your normal swimming forward momentum. Starting from a stop every time wouldn't do you any good either.  I generally try not to push off too hard and minimize the underwater glide, but I really don't know how much difference it makes.
2010-06-19 8:33 AM
in reply to: #2931154

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
It takes much more energy to do open turns and is much more disruptive to your swimming. Learn how to do flip turns.


2010-06-19 8:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
I'm far from being even adequate in the water.  But, I know I can breathe the whole time I'm doing an open turn.  Right now, 02 deprivation is my nemesis.

Hence my Q.

Edited by nc452010 2010-06-19 8:56 AM
2010-06-19 10:39 AM
in reply to: #2931154

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
Flip turns require less energy and therefore less 02.  They are also faster.  Simply learning to do even a marginal turn and two SDKs off each wall with vastly improve your swimming.
2010-06-19 12:56 PM
in reply to: #2931154

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
Fastest turns = no breath into the wall, flip turn (push off wall as hard as you can as this is the time your moving your fastest)...turn slowly from your back doing 2 dolphin kicks (on your side) turning to your stomach, take one stroke...breathe.  

However, when tired i do open turns.  Although i can do open turns (freestyle ones...not butterfly to back or breast to free) faster than anybody I know.  Again 2 dolphin kicks on side and no breaths.
2010-06-19 3:33 PM
in reply to: #2931722

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
xcrunner2010 - 2010-06-19 12:56 PMFastest turns = no breath into the wall, flip turn (push off wall as hard as you can as this is the time your moving your fastest)...turn slowly from your back doing 2 dolphin kicks (on your side) turning to your stomach, take one stroke...breathe.  

However, when tired i do open turns.  Although i can do open turns (freestyle ones...not butterfly to back or breast to free) faster than anybody I know.  Again 2 dolphin kicks on side and no breaths.
Dolphin kicks should never be on your side. That method went away twenty years ago. Also, no one coaches to push as hard as you can. The correct way is to let your momentum aid your push, get into a streamline position, and then as many sdks as you can do effectively.
2010-06-19 5:21 PM
in reply to: #2931886

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
aquageek - 2010-06-19 1:33 PM
xcrunner2010 - 2010-06-19 12:56 PMFastest turns = no breath into the wall, flip turn (push off wall as hard as you can as this is the time your moving your fastest)...turn slowly from your back doing 2 dolphin kicks (on your side) turning to your stomach, take one stroke...breathe.  

However, when tired i do open turns.  Although i can do open turns (freestyle ones...not butterfly to back or breast to free) faster than anybody I know.  Again 2 dolphin kicks on side and no breaths.
Dolphin kicks should never be on your side. That method went away twenty years ago. Also, no one coaches to push as hard as you can. The correct way is to let your momentum aid your push, get into a streamline position, and then as many sdks as you can do effectively.


Which helps triathlon swimming how? Are you going to submerge and dolphin kick your way through your swim? You are correct for competitive pool swimming, but for triathlons, his way would be better.

John


2010-06-19 6:28 PM
in reply to: #2931886

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
aquageek - 2010-06-19 4:33 PM

Dolphin kicks should never be on your side. That method went away twenty years ago. Also, no one coaches to push as hard as you can. The correct way is to let your momentum aid your push, get into a streamline position, and then as many sdks as you can do effectively.


Really? So why does Phelps do them?

Edited by jellyfish 2010-06-19 6:29 PM
2010-06-19 6:51 PM
in reply to: #2931154

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
This thread has turned into a flip turn/open turn/dolphin kick thing. The OP was not debating this but wanting to know why the swim was easier. Focus, people!
2010-06-19 9:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
Stoli - 2010-06-19 7:51 PM This thread has turned into a flip turn/open turn/dolphin kick thing. The OP was not debating this but wanting to know why the swim was easier. Focus, people!


Thanks 
2010-06-20 8:57 AM
in reply to: #2932031

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
jellyfish - 2010-06-19 6:28 PM
aquageek - 2010-06-19 4:33 PM Dolphin kicks should never be on your side. That method went away twenty years ago. Also, no one coaches to push as hard as you can. The correct way is to let your momentum aid your push, get into a streamline position, and then as many sdks as you can do effectively.
Really? So why does Phelps do them?


Watch more closely.    No one SDKs on their side anymore, and hasn't in decade. 
2010-06-20 8:59 AM
in reply to: #2931981

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
tkd.teacher - 2010-06-19 5:21 PM
aquageek - 2010-06-19 1:33 PM
xcrunner2010 - 2010-06-19 12:56 PMFastest turns = no breath into the wall, flip turn (push off wall as hard as you can as this is the time your moving your fastest)...turn slowly from your back doing 2 dolphin kicks (on your side) turning to your stomach, take one stroke...breathe.  

However, when tired i do open turns.  Although i can do open turns (freestyle ones...not butterfly to back or breast to free) faster than anybody I know.  Again 2 dolphin kicks on side and no breaths.
Dolphin kicks should never be on your side. That method went away twenty years ago. Also, no one coaches to push as hard as you can. The correct way is to let your momentum aid your push, get into a streamline position, and then as many sdks as you can do effectively.


Which helps triathlon swimming how? Are you going to submerge and dolphin kick your way through your swim? You are correct for competitive pool swimming, but for triathlons, his way would be better.

John


Patently wrong.  Any legitimate swim program that trains triathletes will tell you that one of the first keys to getting tris better in the water is teaching them how to do do flip turns.  If you do open turns you are taking a ton of energy away from swimming and interrupting the stroke.  Swimming is about, um, swimming, not stopping every 25 yds/scy/50 lcm and gasping for breath and hanging on the walls.  No real swimmer does open turns, bottom line.


2010-06-20 4:11 PM
in reply to: #2931154

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
Were you swimming with a current aiding you?  Also, salt water makes you more bouyant.  Only things I can think of right now.
2010-06-20 4:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
Arguing about flip turns takes way more energy than just swimming the way you want.  There is no ONE way.
2010-06-20 4:35 PM
in reply to: #2932460

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
aquageek - 2010-06-20 8:59 AM
tkd.teacher - 2010-06-19 5:21 PM
aquageek - 2010-06-19 1:33 PM
xcrunner2010 - 2010-06-19 12:56 PMFastest turns = no breath into the wall, flip turn (push off wall as hard as you can as this is the time your moving your fastest)...turn slowly from your back doing 2 dolphin kicks (on your side) turning to your stomach, take one stroke...breathe.  

However, when tired i do open turns.  Although i can do open turns (freestyle ones...not butterfly to back or breast to free) faster than anybody I know.  Again 2 dolphin kicks on side and no breaths.
Dolphin kicks should never be on your side. That method went away twenty years ago. Also, no one coaches to push as hard as you can. The correct way is to let your momentum aid your push, get into a streamline position, and then as many sdks as you can do effectively.



Which helps triathlon swimming how? Are you going to submerge and dolphin kick your way through your swim? You are correct for competitive pool swimming, but for triathlons, his way would be better.

John


Patently wrong.  Any legitimate swim program that trains triathletes will tell you that one of the first keys to getting tris better in the water is teaching them how to do do flip turns.  If you do open turns you are taking a ton of energy away from swimming and interrupting the stroke.  Swimming is about, um, swimming, not stopping every 25 yds/scy/50 lcm and gasping for breath and hanging on the walls.  No real swimmer does open turns, bottom line.


...and you lost all credibility on your 18th post on BT.  Turns interrupt the stroke, period.  I do nothing but open turns in the pool (I find open turns much less energy expensive when compared to flip turns).  I may not be a "real swimmer" but my last three swim finishes haven't been awful.    Given those, what kind of finishes do I need to be a "real swimmer"?  Inquiring minds want to know.


As far as why OWS allows someone to go further without being winded, IMO it is all about being able to get into a rhythm.  Just set your pace and keep going.  Love it.  I have so much more energy in open water.

Edited by sand101 2010-06-20 4:46 PM
2010-06-20 6:03 PM
in reply to: #2931154

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
It's an interesting question. Buoyancy certainly has something to do with it, especially if you were in a wetsuit. But buoyancy isn't getting you to a mile easy when a mile in the pool winds you. Maybe you're just a natural born open water swimmer. Or perhaps your ow goal was just to swim a relaxed 1/2 mile, and when you're in the pool your goal is to work harder?
2010-06-20 7:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
I will throw my 2 cents in. I love swimming in the ocean, because the buoyancy difference makes it easier and more fun. Turns, particularly for the inexperienced swimmer, take a lot of energy and can disrupt one's rhythm. That is why I like long course vs short course. Also, if the current is moving you in the right direction, you can make some pretty good time without too much effort in the ocean. 
Come to Islamorada and I will swim with you, either way.

Gary 


2010-06-24 7:50 AM
in reply to: #2932848

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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
aquageek - 2010-06-24 9:02 PM
sand101 - 2010-06-20 4:35 PM
aquageek - 2010-06-20 8:59 AM
tkd.teacher - 2010-06-19 5:21 PM
aquageek - 2010-06-19 1:33 PM
xcrunner2010 - 2010-06-19 12:56 PMFastest turns = no breath into the wall, flip turn (push off wall as hard as you can as this is the time your moving your fastest)...turn slowly from your back doing 2 dolphin kicks (on your side) turning to your stomach, take one stroke...breathe.  

However, when tired i do open turns.  Although i can do open turns (freestyle ones...not butterfly to back or breast to free) faster than anybody I know.  Again 2 dolphin kicks on side and no breaths.
Dolphin kicks should never be on your side. That method went away twenty years ago. Also, no one coaches to push as hard as you can. The correct way is to let your momentum aid your push, get into a streamline position, and then as many sdks as you can do effectively.



Which helps triathlon swimming how? Are you going to submerge and dolphin kick your way through your swim? You are correct for competitive pool swimming, but for triathlons, his way would be better.

John


Patently wrong.  Any legitimate swim program that trains triathletes will tell you that one of the first keys to getting tris better in the water is teaching them how to do do flip turns.  If you do open turns you are taking a ton of energy away from swimming and interrupting the stroke.  Swimming is about, um, swimming, not stopping every 25 yds/scy/50 lcm and gasping for breath and hanging on the walls.  No real swimmer does open turns, bottom line.


...and you lost all credibility on your 18th post on BT.  Turns interrupt the stroke, period.  I do nothing but open turns in the pool (I find open turns much less energy expensive when compared to flip turns).  I may not be a "real swimmer" but my last three swim finishes haven't been awful.    Given those, what kind of finishes do I need to be a "real swimmer"?  Inquiring minds want to know.


As far as why OWS allows someone to go further without being winded, IMO it is all about being able to get into a rhythm.  Just set your pace and keep going.  Love it.  I have so much more energy in open water.


You only do open turns and the best you can do in the swimming leg is not awful.  Time to re-evaluate the swim plan there amigo.  It must suck to be satisfied with not awful.


We play nice here at BT.

That is not constructive, well-supported swimming advice TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER ON THE TOPIC HE ASKED FOR.

That is a personal put-down, to a completely different person, and off-topic.

Please direct your comments TO the original poster (not AT the original poster), on what he asked for, and preferably (though not necessarily, we all just offer opinions here backed up or not to varying degrees) with some kind of plausible reasoning or evidence. Thank you.
2010-06-24 8:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
garyhallsr - 2010-06-21 9:13 AM I will throw my 2 cents in. I love swimming in the ocean, because the buoyancy difference makes it easier and more fun. Turns, particularly for the inexperienced swimmer, take a lot of energy and can disrupt one's rhythm. That is why I like long course vs short course. Also, if the current is moving you in the right direction, you can make some pretty good time without too much effort in the ocean. 
Come to Islamorada and I will swim with you, either way.

Gary 


This.

(Gary is, to put it insanely mildly, a good person to listen to regarding swimming).

Also, turns (for someone not overly proficient) not only take a lot of energy ... but (if you're doing flip turns not efficiently) can act as a bit of oxygen deprivation. This can make a huge difference, especially at each end of, say, a 25yd pool.

In the ocean, your higher position (buoyancy) may also be allowing you to turn your head to breathe more easily, taking in more oxygen.

And you ought to come swim with me and my open-water Labrador (pictured) in Bali, too

[PS totally off topic, but thanks so much for the Electrocell advice on mosquitoes--or whatever it was--I got an electric thingy here that's similar and I am getting bitten less at night]
2010-06-24 8:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
TriAya - 2010-06-24 9:01 AM
garyhallsr - 2010-06-21 9:13 AM I will throw my 2 cents in. I love swimming in the ocean, because the buoyancy difference makes it easier and more fun. Turns, particularly for the inexperienced swimmer, take a lot of energy and can disrupt one's rhythm. That is why I like long course vs short course. Also, if the current is moving you in the right direction, you can make some pretty good time without too much effort in the ocean. 
Come to Islamorada and I will swim with you, either way.

Gary 


This.

(Gary is, to put it insanely mildly, a good person to listen to regarding swimming).

Also, turns (for someone not overly proficient) not only take a lot of energy ... but (if you're doing flip turns not efficiently) can act as a bit of oxygen deprivation. This can make a huge difference, especially at each end of, say, a 25yd pool.

In the ocean, your higher position (buoyancy) may also be allowing you to turn your head to breathe more easily, taking in more oxygen.



X3.  You know how the key word in tri swimming is "steady"?  OWS makes it easier to stay steady and consistent without the interruption walls throw into the mix and bouyancy is definitely a swimmer's friend.  Doing "intervals" while swimming will take more out of you than maintaining a consistent pace.

And on the off topic of flip turns.....flip turns wear on you and deprive you of O2.  They are a way more efficient translation of motion but the holding your breath part can get harder over time.  In comfortable swimming, you don't notice as much but if you are pushing the pace.....you start to come up earlier and earlier and gasp for breath.   It is good lung training though but it is something you'd notice when you suddenly don't have to do turns.
2010-06-24 9:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming experts
Karibu - 2010-06-18 4:46 PM  Every time I swim in a pool I get winded. My current workouts are around 2000 yards. Today I did my first OWS in the ocean. I set out to swim a half a mile and ended up doing a mile. I was not winded and felt like I could have gone another mile.

 Why was it so much easier? ( I know your more buoyant is that the only reason


It's probably not just the buoyancy, but also relaxation. When you get in OW and say "Ok, I'm just going to swim", you aren't thinking about counting laps, turns, split times, anything. You just relax and swim.

John
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