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HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy)
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 2010-07-02 11:12 AM |
Expert  2852     Pfafftown, NC |  Subject: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy)Got a feeling I'm going a little too hard on my long runs. I don't currently use a HR monitor (OK, I did, today), because I don't know my MHR. Using every calculation known to the internet, avg=ing them out, I'm "supposed" to be 181 (MHR). I've been training about 4mos. - training in all 3 sports about 3mos. I'm 45 (46 in Oct). Questions are, as follows: 1. How much could this possibly be off? 2. IF someone was going to use HR zone training for ONLY their long run for the week, and they were going to err.....which zone would they be better off erring towards (for the greatest gains in fitness)? 3. If you train in zones 2-3, how do you know what HR to target for your race (running related)? 4. At what dist. (run) does racing by HR come into play? I can't imagine it mattering in a 5K....and probably not a 10K? Pure speculation, though. 5. Do you even think about HR zone while racing? If you don't use HR zone training, this won't apply to you (naturally). I'm not sure I want to, either. But, I'd like to use something on my long runs to keep me in check. That's the main issue. |
| 2010-07-02 11:50 AM in reply to: #2958053 |
Not a Coach 11473  Media, PA | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) 1. A lot. Search for "220-age" thread. 2. Harder work provides greater gains. With higher costs and risks. 3. Depends what the race distance is. Sometimes HR is not very helpful. Other times it may be useful (e.g., longer races) 4. You can measure HR over any time/distance. The longer the race, the more likely "racing" by HR could be useful. 5. I think about whether my effort is right. HR is a part of feeling the effort. But I don't monitor it directly anymore. |
| 2010-07-02 11:57 AM in reply to: #2958053 |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) I don't have any desire to use it all the time (HR Monitor). Basically, I'm just asking if there's a way to use it on my weekly long run. And, might that help me pace in the half? If I err towards a zone, which one (and high/low within) should I err towards. I can't imagine anyone (with hills and such involved) being dead-on their target zone all the time, anyways. I'm just looking for a range/percentage of a "not to exceed". Let's look at it realistically....If I'm not using one at all, now, how can it hurt to use RPE and have this as "another" guide / safety net? |
| 2010-07-02 12:04 PM in reply to: #2958171 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) Don't bother. |
| 2010-07-02 12:12 PM in reply to: #2958171 |
Expert 1310 Alabama | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) nc452010 - 2010-07-02 11:57 AM I don't have any desire to use it all the time (HR Monitor). Basically, I'm just asking if there's a way to use it on my weekly long run. And, might that help me pace in the half? If I err towards a zone, which one (and high/low within) should I err towards. I can't imagine anyone (with hills and such involved) being dead-on their target zone all the time, anyways. I'm just looking for a range/percentage of a "not to exceed". Let's look at it realistically....If I'm not using one at all, now, how can it hurt to use RPE and have this as "another" guide / safety net? I can't offer too much insight, but I will mention a couple of things: I wouldn't call the HRM a safety net. I use it to train basically, while paying attention to my RPE. So, the HRM is probably my main guide, with RPE my other "guide". It has been suggested here to use one or the other, and not really both for training purposes. I can't recall all the reasons. I would suggest not worrying about your zones for a month or two, and just run by RPE. This will give you an idea about what your HR is for different efforts, then you can start keying in on where your zones may fall. If you keep an easy conversational pace, that's probably around your Z2 effort. Once you get a little backgroud, you can look at doing a LT Test, which has been discussed here numerous times and there are a couple of articles running around(I don't have the link handy). This is where I started with my HRM, so everyone may take a different approach. Also, I like the data that comes with it, so I chose to train mostly by HRM & pace. I just don't think RPE training would work for me. Everyone is different, and RPE may work for you itself. Edited by pilotzs 2010-07-02 12:14 PM |
| 2010-07-02 12:14 PM in reply to: #2958053 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) nc452010 - 2010-07-02 11:12 AM Got a feeling I'm going a little too hard on my long runs. I don't currently use a HR monitor (OK, I did, today), because I don't know my MHR. Using every calculation known to the internet, avg=ing them out, I'm "supposed" to be 181 (MHR). I've been training about 4mos. - training in all 3 sports about 3mos. I'm 45 (46 in Oct). Questions are, as follows: 1. How much could this possibly be off? 2. IF someone was going to use HR zone training for ONLY their long run for the week, and they were going to err.....which zone would they be better off erring towards (for the greatest gains in fitness)? 3. If you train in zones 2-3, how do you know what HR to target for your race (running related)? 4. At what dist. (run) does racing by HR come into play? I can't imagine it mattering in a 5K....and probably not a 10K? Pure speculation, though. 5. Do you even think about HR zone while racing? If you don't use HR zone training, this won't apply to you (naturally). I'm not sure I want to, either. But, I'd like to use something on my long runs to keep me in check. That's the main issue. 1) calcs on the internet don't work 2) slow and steady build the volume in z1/z2 3) that is the point of bricks. where you might try the distances or simulate part of the ride...ie for a HIM brick might be 25-30 min swim, 2.5 hr bike (1 hr at race pace), 45-60 min run, 15 wu, 30 min steady increase in pace. if you don't have the race experience ESPECIALLY since its your first HIM, you need to do a couple of these. NOT because its a brick but to dial in paces and nutrition, some will disagree but these are important. last year i did only 1 of these and didn't dial in my bike / run pace and died. 4) are you talking 5k race or 10k race, because in a race the 1 and only good thing for the garmin for me is telling me current pace. HR analysis is done afterwards. 5) in sprint and olympic no...in HIM yes. |
| 2010-07-02 12:16 PM in reply to: #2958194 |
Runner | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) JohnnyKay - 2010-07-02 1:04 PM Don't bother. Agreed. Pick one method and stick with it. If you want to track and record additional information, go for it. But when it comes down to actually monitoring effort, use one method. It's all about consistency. |
| 2010-07-02 12:17 PM in reply to: #2958053 |
Master 1927 Guilford, CT | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) Either use it or don't. I wouldn't bother using it just for a long run. If your going to bother you might as well shell out a hundred bucks for an LT test to get real numbers and then follow a real plan and not just sort of half follow a generic plan based on possibly inaccurate numbers. either way...I'll give you this to ponder
Edited by acumenjay 2010-07-02 12:18 PM | |
| 2010-07-02 12:18 PM in reply to: #2958053 |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) trix- You know me better than that. When I say "half" I'm talking HM - not HIM. Remember, I can't swim.
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| 2010-07-02 12:20 PM in reply to: #2958231 |
Expert 1310 Alabama | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) acumenjay - 2010-07-02 12:17 PM Either use it or don't. I wouldn't bother using it just for a long run. If your going to bother you might as well shell out a hundred bucks for an LT test to get real numbers and then follow a real plan and not just sort of half follow a generic plan based on possibly inaccurate numbers. either way...I'll give you this to ponder
This doesn't even come close to my zones. My LT has calculated at 186 for running (top range). By this, it would be 166, which is basically my zone 2 training. Everyone is different. I'm a 35 yo male btw. Kind of shows how far off this can be, unless i'm reading something incorrectly. Edited by pilotzs 2010-07-02 12:23 PM | |
| 2010-07-02 12:25 PM in reply to: #2958053 |
Master 1927 Guilford, CT | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) yup. I don't bother with HR anymore personally. Too much of a slave to the numbers for me... |
| 2010-07-02 12:29 PM in reply to: #2958053 |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) I trust you guys. Using RPE'll save me some $$, too. |
| 2010-07-02 12:35 PM in reply to: #2958261 |
Champion 10018 , Minnesota Bronze member | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) Just my experience... I found early on that my RPE was a bit off. I thought a run that felt good was an easy run and it ended up being high z3 for me. A truly easy run feels RIDICULOUSLY easy to me, and is from 1:30 to 2 min slower per mile than my 5k PR. "Easy" means you can have a conversation without getting very out of breath. I also try to see if I can breath through my nose for a while. Although that might not be possible even in an easy zone run... Just something I try. |
| 2010-07-02 12:38 PM in reply to: #2958261 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) nc452010 - 2010-07-02 1:29 PM I trust you guys. Using RPE'll save me some $$, too. Let me ask you, why do you think you are going too hard (per your first post) yet also think it feels "fine" and you are recovering OK? |
| 2010-07-02 12:43 PM in reply to: #2958053 |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) Let me ask you, why do you think you are going too hard (per your first post) yet also think it feels "fine" and you are recovering OK? Fair question. I'm betting, if I had a HR monitor on, doing it my way (i.e. "feel"), it would indicate I was in a higher training zone than what most would call "ideal" for runs of 6-10mi.+. I'm no "runner". I run. It doesn't kill me (it taxes me, but not to the point of being uncomfortable). I recover. All is well. But, is it "ideal"? Most would say no. Like I said, I'm betting my HR is higher than most would say is optimal. |
| 2010-07-02 12:43 PM in reply to: #2958053 |
Pro 4353 Wallingford, PA | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) If you're going to train using heart rate zones, then do some field testing to establish the zones you should be trainning in. As suggested by other posters, there is A LOT of individual variability, and for most people, using some generic formula to estimate zones is next to worthless... Here' a good test protocol to help you establish your zones: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=... What zone you should be in for your long run depends on exactly what the purpose of that run is.... In the plan I'm currently following, some long runs are slow/easy runs (zone 2-ish) and others include at least some "race pace" effort, which would be in a higher zone. So that question is hard to answer.... For a HM, if you want to use HR to pace yourself, I would say somewhere around high zone 3/low zone 4 would probably be a pretty good place to be. Since it's your first HM, perhaps stick to zone 3 and see how it goes, if you're feeling strong at mile 10 you can always kick it up a notch. |
| 2010-07-02 12:43 PM in reply to: #2958285 |
Master 1927 Guilford, CT | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) BikerGrrrl - 2010-07-02 12:35 PM Just my experience... I found early on that my RPE was a bit off. I thought a run that felt good was an easy run and it ended up being high z3 for me. A truly easy run feels RIDICULOUSLY easy to me, and is from 1:30 to 2 min slower per mile than my 5k PR. "Easy" means you can have a conversation without getting very out of breath. I also try to see if I can breath through my nose for a while. Although that might not be possible even in an easy zone run... Just something I try. That was true for me when I went from never having used on to using one. Also, I wasn't trying to sway you one way or another either. I think the message is, commit to it fully or don't bother. Having used it in the past I sort of just know what it feels like at certain effort levels so I think it does help. I may very well go back to it at some point down the road too....I wasn't saying it isn't effective. Just making sure that part is clear. |
| 2010-07-02 12:51 PM in reply to: #2958313 |
Runner | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) nc452010 - 2010-07-02 1:43 PM Let me ask you, why do you think you are going too hard (per your first post) yet also think it feels "fine" and you are recovering OK? Fair question. I'm betting, if I had a HR monitor on, doing it my way (i.e. "feel"), it would indicate I was in a higher training zone than what most would call "ideal" for runs of 6-10mi.+. I'm no "runner". I run. It doesn't kill me (it taxes me, but not to the point of being uncomfortable). I recover. All is well. But, is it "ideal"? Most would say no. Like I said, I'm betting my HR is higher than most would say is optimal. Who cares? "Ideal" training for one person is not "ideal" training for another. This is the one problem with all those canned plans and training books. They give the impression that you have to meet specific criteria. Not true at all. If you are capable of recovering from high zone 2/low zone 3 and hit all of your workouts, then I see absolutely no problem with what you're doing. |
| 2010-07-02 12:53 PM in reply to: #2958313 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) nc452010 - 2010-07-02 1:43 PM Let me ask you, why do you think you are going too hard (per your first post) yet also think it feels "fine" and you are recovering OK? Fair question. I'm betting, if I had a HR monitor on, doing it my way (i.e. "feel"), it would indicate I was in a higher training zone than what most would call "ideal" for runs of 6-10mi.+. I'm no "runner". I run. It doesn't kill me (it taxes me, but not to the point of being uncomfortable). I recover. All is well. But, is it "ideal"? Most would say no. Like I said, I'm betting my HR is higher than most would say is optimal. "Ideal" is running at an effort that will tax you but allows you to get out the next day and do it again (or do whatever workout you have planned). There is no "optimal" HR for a 6-10+mi training run. |
| 2010-07-02 12:58 PM in reply to: #2958342 |
Runner | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) JohnnyKay - 2010-07-02 1:53 PM nc452010 - 2010-07-02 1:43 PM Let me ask you, why do you think you are going too hard (per your first post) yet also think it feels "fine" and you are recovering OK? Fair question. I'm betting, if I had a HR monitor on, doing it my way (i.e. "feel"), it would indicate I was in a higher training zone than what most would call "ideal" for runs of 6-10mi.+. I'm no "runner". I run. It doesn't kill me (it taxes me, but not to the point of being uncomfortable). I recover. All is well. But, is it "ideal"? Most would say no. Like I said, I'm betting my HR is higher than most would say is optimal. "Ideal" is running at an effort that will tax you but allows you to get out the next day and do it again (or do whatever workout you have planned). There is no "optimal" HR for a 6-10+mi training run. A far better way of stating what I was trying to convey. Well done, JK. |
| 2010-07-02 12:59 PM in reply to: #2958053 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) I'll chime and agree 100% that if you are going to use it, make sure you are using it coerrectly and consistently. Get a LT or VO2 test or do a time trial on the run and bike to determine YOUR zones, not something from a generic formula. I train using HR for bike and run, have since I started in the sport more than 4 years ago. It provided a context and language my coach and I could both use to develop my training and workouts and racing and has proved to be very effective. Especially on the bike, my HR monitor helps me hold ghigher level of efforts for long periods of time. On the bike, HR is my little reminder to pick up the pace whereas on the run, sometimes it tells me to slow down a bit. Over the years, I know how external conditions can effect it and adjust accordingly. Like I said, you learn from it if you use it right. |
| 2010-07-02 1:05 PM in reply to: #2958053 |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) "Ideal" is running at an effort that will tax you but allows you to get out the next day and do it again (or do whatever workout you have planned). There is no "optimal" HR for a 6-10+mi training run. I agree with Scout. That was awesome. Thank you. |
| 2010-07-02 1:05 PM in reply to: #2958053 |
Master 1222 Lafayette, IN | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) nc452010 - 2010-07-02 11:12 AM Got a feeling I'm going a little too hard on my long runs. I don't currently use a HR monitor (OK, I did, today), because I don't know my MHR. Using every calculation known to the internet, avg=ing them out, I'm "supposed" to be 181 (MHR). I've been training about 4mos. - training in all 3 sports about 3mos. I'm 45 (46 in Oct). Questions are, as follows: 1. How much could this possibly be off? Quite a bit. 2. IF someone was going to use HR zone training for ONLY their long run for the week, and they were going to err.....which zone would they be better off erring towards (for the greatest gains in fitness)? Zone 2 for endurance training. Mostly depends on your goals. 3. If you train in zones 2-3, how do you know what HR to target for your race (running related)? Depends on the distance. 4. At what dist. (run) does racing by HR come into play? I can't imagine it mattering in a 5K....and probably not a 10K? Pure speculation, though. 5K hammer it! 10K hammer it! Anything longer, pace comes into play. 5. Do you even think about HR zone while racing? Not for anything less than HIM/IM/1/2 marathon/full marathon. If you don't use HR zone training, this won't apply to you (naturally). I'm not sure I want to, either. But, I'd like to use something on my long runs to keep me in check. That's the main issue. You have to decide oneway or the other. I have been training with HR for many years and I like it. The questions you ask really require more in depth information to provide a good answer. I originally started using HR because I was pushing too hard in my training sessions and they helped me keep the intensity in check so I could recover well and push again the next day. I can (and so can you) run by RPE, but if you are a little bit of a techno geek and like to see numbers and graphs, then HR training can be fun. One word of caution though: Don't let HR control your workouts. Don't train BY HR, but WITH HR. Determine your Lactate Threshold, then establish HR zones, then pick a program that will guide you in your training sessions with the zones you should aim for. Edited by Gregkl 2010-07-02 1:10 PM |
| 2010-07-02 1:27 PM in reply to: #2958285 |
Extreme Veteran 516 Chicago | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) Try http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm. Maybe you've seen it before and I'm not sure how accurate it is, but I think it gives a good range for training paces. When putting your best time for a given distance, I would try something as close to your race distance you are training for as possible. For example, I wouldn't use the data that you get by using you best 5k time if you are training for a full marathon. |
| 2010-07-02 1:43 PM in reply to: #2958487 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: HR zone training for dummies (OK - "a" dummy) tbcoffee - 2010-07-02 2:27 PM For example, I wouldn't use the data that you get by using you best 5k time if you are training for a full marathon. Actually, that's exactly how you are supposed to use it (assuming that 5k time is recent). |
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