Started this journey as a runner..and now my runs suck during tris..

I don't have an answer for you, but I'm in the same boat.  Started as a runner and now my runs seem to suffer.  I've noticed that as I get stronger on the bike, I have gotten weaker on the run.  What gives?

jami 

Without being able to see anything in your logs, my first guess would be to now slow down on your bike, and work on your bike fitness in the future. My guess would be right now you are expending way too much energy on your bike and leaving nothing for the run. 

Swim and bike fitness, and swim/bike pacing.


Have you done an open run recently to at least make sure its the triathlon or tri training killing your run?

If you can still run a decent time in an open running race then that would narrow it down right there.


but my guess is its a combination of cutting back run mileage, adding in some other stuff you are not used to, and then racing the swim/bike too hard.

get the bike and swim fitness up on par with the run, and then PACE correctly.

What nutrition are you taking on the bike?

I had this issue until I improved my bike fitness along with better pacing on the bike. It took about a year, but I build up to doing 100 - 120 miles on the bike each week. This included doing long rides of 50 to 60 miles each week. I had been running for a while before I started doing triathlons. I could run 46 -48 minutes stand alone 10Ks, but it took 60 - 65 minutes to cover the 10k run after the 40K bike. By improving my bike fitness my 10k times started coming down and are around 50-52 minutes now Still have work to do to get that down, but it just takes time.

This is where I would start.  I would imagine your fitness is fine based on the limited info on your background, but maybe your fueling is deficient.

I know my logs aren't up to date, but I have been doing a lot of biking over the past few months and much further distances than the race distances.. and feel good on the bike.  This past weekend's tri was a very hilly 17.5 mile bike leg and I was feeling it in my legs a bit but didn't feel totally spent on the bike either.  But I felt as though my fitness on the bike was up to par. 

As for nutrition.. I didn't eat anything on the bike.. had a mini cliff bar for breakfast and a few sips of gatorade and only a few sips of Nuun on the bike.  I did feel pretty dry afterwards to the point when I ate something for lunch the roof of my mouth was so dry it hurt.  This happened also in my tri 3 weeks ago..when I ate lunch afterwards the roof of my mouth felt almost raw. 

As for running races.. ran a 5k race last weekend and averaged an 8:30 pace.  So I can still run a 5k and do okay on its own. 

Now I am swimming sidestroke for my swim.. I am assuming this takes more leg work than freestyle, so could that be the culprit?  Because honestly, I did bricks, but never really practiced the whole swim before the bike run during training..

My money is on bike pacing more than anything.  The distances you are describing are too short for nutrition during the race to be much of an issue.  As others said, slow down a little on the bike until your bike fitness can support a faster pace.

as an athlete and coach this is actually the LAST place i would go.

From everything you've said, i'm going to stick by my first post, and say its a mix of swim/bike fitness, and pacing.

You've just shown your run is still there/or at least more so than you are seeing in tri races.

Sounds like the bike fitness is on its way (but it will take more than a few months to really see some decent gains).

So that really leaves in the bigger picture bike pacing, and swim fitness.

the harder it is for you to cover the distance in the swim, the more its going to take out of you (one of the big reasons i like to have my athletes swimming more even if they are not getting a ton faster, it makes it a lot easier to finish teh swim feeling strong and ready to move on to the next event).

so any work you can do there will help (although i doubt its due to the kicking pattern of side stroke, but more related to simply being more work).

Bike pacing is almost always the issue though. pay attention to it a bit, keep it in check the first 1-3 min in a shorter race and further in longer ones. psuh up hills but dont sprint up them, if you get to the top so cooked you cannot push down the otherside you're not doing yourself much good.

The fitter you become on the bike, the faster in relation to a bike only of that same distance you'll be able to go. Just like you see some elite triathletes running very close to their open 5k and 10k times in races, the fitter you are overall, the closer you can race to your open times for the diff events without it taking as much out of you.

So to sum up, i'd focus on some harder biking more often, (5-10 min intervals are your friend if yo uare doing shorter races), keep up the running, and watch the bike pace. and keep swimming.

drop the bricks out, and get in good quality workouts in each sport.

good luck!

She's doing sprints...pretty unlikely it's nutrition.   Judging from logs and race reports, it's also not likely its biking too fast per se...more likely just lack of general fitness on the bike.

To the OP:  I think at least half the answer to your question is in your own race log from your last tri.  You're psyched out a bit.  Like you say yourself in your race report:  Running is mental.

As to the quad cramping you describe in your report from your first tri:  Happens a lot.  I'm also a converted runner, but have managed to retain most of my speed in tris (at least at the shorter distances).  But I periodically get that same quad cramping off the bike...can be really bad.  Came very close to walking a mile into the run on my first Olympic distance tri.  With a couple more years of cycling under my belt, that's no longer an issue at shorter distances (though it did hit me in both of my iron distance races, so I've still got work to do there).

But pay heed to your own words about the mental dimension and fight through the discomfort...a lot of times, the first mile or so is the toughest as your legs adjust to the different effort and then you get back into a zone closer to what you'd expect from a standalone running event.

You are biking too fast...problem solved...next!!!

And it has been a 1 minute/mile penalty kinda summer...heat-wise!

Edited by pga_mike 2010-08-23 1:13 PM

Thank you for your responses!  It is very mental for me..but when I do bricks during training, my legs feel fine on the run..which is probably because I wasn't pushing as hard as I am during a race!

Lots to take in and work on over the winter!! Thanks for all the advice!

You know, I'm pretty new to this whole thing myself, I've only done 2 triathlons to date. One novice, and one Oly.

I always thought running was definitely my strongest event. I have run a 3:34 marathon, a 1:36 half mary, and 19 min 5k's and my runs have definitely not been my strong point in my tri's.

I think the root of my problem is that I never bike as hard as I do in races, and by the time I get off the bike, I'm pretty toasted.  I dont ever feel that way because my HR stays lower on the bike when I'm really pushing hard, than it does on a hard run. Thats why I think cycling is kind of deceptive to newbs like me.  With cycling you're only really using leg muscles, and your heart rate stays lower because you dont have to support your weight, and maybe resting on the aero bars makes it feel a little more relaxing than it actually is.

I think thats 50% of my problem, and I think the other 50% is the fact that I barely drink anything on the bike, and I'm probably suffering from dehydration on the run.  I dont get many cramps or pains or anything really, but I do have that completely out of gas feeling.

I'm gonna tone down my bike to about 85% of my maximum effort on the bike (hopefully that wont kill my bike time too bad), and then go all out on my run and see if its closer to the time I would get in a running only race.

You aren't doing brick at race pace.

Do a few race simulations where you bike as hard as you will in the race based on HR or RPE and then run after wards and see how it goes. If your run sucks, bike a little less hard the next time and see if your run is better. Since you are doing sprints you could do race distance even on the race course if it is close to you, then run maybe 2-3 miles at race pace after your bike.

These wouldn't be every week type bricks but do maybe 3 and 2 weeks out from a race to dial in your pacing for your race.

Being a newbie to tri's and coming from a running background as well this brings up a question. Are bricks more effective if the bike is done as a tempo or interval ride rather than our slower long distance pace? I would figure intervals would better simulate the potential leg fatigue thus the challenges we will face in running after a ride.

from my personal and coaching experience, bricks will do nothing for your running in a triathlon outside of *maybe* speeding up the first 800m or so (and almost EVERYONE, old, young, slow, fast, long, short races), tend to run their fastest mile off the bike anyway).

for longer races they are helpful for testing nutrition/pacing, and they are good for time contrainted poeple.

now if you are looking to run faster in triathlons, you need to manage your swim/bike fitness and pacing.

your run training allows you to run X open time

Your swim/bike pacing/fitness/nutrition allow you to run Y % of that open run time.

well, if you never run there could be;-)

fiiiiiine.

Maybe I am different, but either in a sprint tri or a long run once I hit the 1:20 point without any nutrition I lose it.  It happened every time until I started taking GU or Maltodextrin/water earlier in the race or run. 

I know I have a high metabolism, but her race was 1:50 for me I have found that is way to long without any nutrition.