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2010-09-13 7:13 PM

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Subject: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
I was thinking about this all through my ride today (was brought on by the fact that i had 4 diff nutrition companies represented).

Are we as triathletes going overboard with our apparent need for "just the right thing" when it comes to the calories we take in? By this i mean, outside of making sure you are taking in X amount per hour, and finding a flavor you like, does it really matter where it comes from?

with a few exceptions most of these gels/drinks are made out of the same thing.

any thoughts?


2010-09-13 7:19 PM
in reply to: #3096616

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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
My uneducated thought is this:  some people seem to be fairly sensitive, and for them, finding just the right thing seems to matter.

I'm not one of them.  Although my race-day nutrition plan has changed very little (Heed, Hammer gel, and Cliff bars), in general on a long ride I load up with whatever is close at hand -- pretzels, cookies, dried fruit, whatever.  If I have sports drink in the house, I'll take it.  If not, I'll dilute some OJ or apple juice.  You get the picture.  It never really seems to matter much for my performance, as far as I can tell.
2010-09-13 7:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
I think it comes down to a few things, David. For long course racing, being able to live off the land, so to speak, can be very advantageous. It's something you can replicate in training and does not require a lot of additional effort in terms of pre-race and during race (Special needs, ect.). The benefit of current athletic nutrition is it's convenient. Pre-packaged, nice and compact, giving you a decent nutritional bang for the buck (not in terms of costs, this stuff is pricey). I do think people WAY over think and plan their nutrition as they have been scared stupid by bogus claims from the companies which sell complicated nutrition products. My Mom used to race IM's with fig Netwons and candy bars, so there you go.
2010-09-13 7:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?

I try to keep things simple.  I usually eat the gels included in my race bag from sponsors.  If I had to buy them myself I would tend to be price driven.  If two different brands appeared to have the same stuff, I'd take the cheaper one.

To me flavor would be higher priority than what is what made of/where the ingredients came from.

I do like gels that go down smooth and not get stuck to my throat etc.

2010-09-13 7:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
I would tend to believe so, especially after reading a race report from a sprint where the reportee ingested 3 gels and a bottle of cyclomax.
2010-09-13 7:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
the bear - 2010-09-13 7:34 PM I would tend to believe so, especially after reading a race report from a sprint where the reportee ingested 3 gels and a bottle of cyclomax.


Did they put on some weight by the end of that race?

o_0

Incidentally, I underestimated what I would need nutritionally from an IM yesterday and ingested approximately 2,400 calories.  This had a lot to do with the fact that I was simply unable to take anything in on the run due to GI issues, but still. Ridiculous.

After that race, I realize that it's simply important to understand what your body can handle sloshing around during a race (or, more specifically NOT sloshing around) and what it can digest rapidly. Obviously we're not going to be doing high-GI foods during a race, so the options out there are well developed for us, but it is definitely overkill.

I'm trying fig newtons next time, Bryan. That just sounds amazing.


2010-09-13 7:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
bryan,

that is sort of what i was thinking all around. Sort of if you drink heed and nothing else, your world is not going to come crashing down if someone hands you gatorade.

2010-09-13 8:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
I'd just say the longer the race, the higher the stakes. I think there is something to nutrition for longer distances.

2010-09-13 8:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
newbz - 2010-09-13 8:42 PM bryan, that is sort of what i was thinking all around. Sort of if you drink heed and nothing else, your world is not going to come crashing down if someone hands you gatorade.


I agree with this.  I have to add, though, that the first time I tried Heed (I am now a fan of the stuff, BTW), it was by accident.  I was handed it on the run when I thought I was being handed water.  I almost puked.  (I think this had much more to do with my expecting it to be water, than with it being Heed vs., say., Gatorade).
2010-09-13 8:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
Yeh, I don't think there's anything particularly magic about any one nutrition product... This year I've taken to making my own. As you said, most are made of the same stuff. I went the bulk matodextrin route, and use it to mix drinks and make a concentrated version I can carry in a gel flask. I like it because I can easily adjust how many calories, how much electrolyte, how much flavoring, etc. for any longer workouts I might need nutrition for. Plus the stuff is SUPER cheap compared to branded nutrition products...
2010-09-13 8:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
Experior - 2010-09-13 8:14 PM
newbz - 2010-09-13 8:42 PM bryan, that is sort of what i was thinking all around. Sort of if you drink heed and nothing else, your world is not going to come crashing down if someone hands you gatorade.


I agree with this.  I have to add, though, that the first time I tried Heed (I am now a fan of the stuff, BTW), it was by accident.  I was handed it on the run when I thought I was being handed water.  I almost puked.  (I think this had much more to do with my expecting it to be water, than with it being Heed vs., say., Gatorade).


If you're handed heed, and think it's water, and you pour it on your head, a little world crashing  may come down.


2010-09-13 8:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
the bear - 2010-09-13 7:19 PM

Experior - 2010-09-13 8:14 PM
newbz - 2010-09-13 8:42 PM bryan, that is sort of what i was thinking all around. Sort of if you drink heed and nothing else, your world is not going to come crashing down if someone hands you gatorade.


I agree with this. I have to add, though, that the first time I tried Heed (I am now a fan of the stuff, BTW), it was by accident. I was handed it on the run when I thought I was being handed water. I almost puked. (I think this had much more to do with my expecting it to be water, than with it being Heed vs., say., Gatorade).


If you're handed heed, and think it's water, and you pour it on your head, a little world crashing may come down.



i did that in a race, only i didnt dump it on my head, it went right into my face. epic fail .


2010-09-13 8:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
... that which does not make us puke, fart, have diarrhea, or other GI distress makes us stronger.
it all comes down to taste preference for me. but as soon as my taste preferred first bottle/gel/what have you is gone, just gimme whatever is out there as long as it doesn't contain soy protein isolate! that stuff is evile to my belly.
2010-09-13 8:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
newbz - 2010-09-13 7:13 PM

I was thinking about this all through my ride today (was brought on by the fact that i had 4 diff nutrition companies represented).

Are we as triathletes going overboard with our apparent need for "just the right thing" when it comes to the calories we take in? By this i mean, outside of making sure you are taking in X amount per hour, and finding a flavor you like, does it really matter where it comes from?

with a few exceptions most of these gels/drinks are made out of the same thing.

any thoughts?


I think we do at times.

I did a 15 mile run on only 1 gel. I was fine.

Note: I usually take a gel every 45 minutes, but since I felt like I wanted to vomit up to mile 6, I only got 1 gel in around mile 9 ish.

At the USAT Level I coaching clinic, Bob Sinclair talked about teaching our bodies to use less calories from carbs and more so from fat. Yes, I am over simplifying it... but the idea of it is very interesting. He worked with a girl and got her using very little nutrition for a 100 mile run.



2010-09-14 4:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
I think most people do. I started a thread a while back questioning whether beginners over complicate things, but experienced people can be just as guilty of it.
2010-09-14 7:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
newbz - 2010-09-13 8:22 PM
the bear - 2010-09-13 7:19 PM
Experior - 2010-09-13 8:14 PM
newbz - 2010-09-13 8:42 PM bryan, that is sort of what i was thinking all around. Sort of if you drink heed and nothing else, your world is not going to come crashing down if someone hands you gatorade.


I agree with this. I have to add, though, that the first time I tried Heed (I am now a fan of the stuff, BTW), it was by accident. I was handed it on the run when I thought I was being handed water. I almost puked. (I think this had much more to do with my expecting it to be water, than with it being Heed vs., say., Gatorade).


If you're handed heed, and think it's water, and you pour it on your head, a little world crashing may come down.
i did that in a race, only i didnt dump it on my head, it went right into my face. epic fail .

Did all the ants smile for the finish photo too?


2010-09-14 7:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
UWMadTri - 2010-09-13 9:39 PM

Incidentally, I underestimated what I would need nutritionally from an IM yesterday and ingested approximately 2,400 calories.  This had a lot to do with the fact that I was simply unable to take anything in on the run due to GI issues, but still. Ridiculous.


I am curious about how many calories you think you should have consumed (on the bike)?

Shane
2010-09-14 7:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
Well, I know that if I took in calories the way some people claim to, I'd be vomiting after every run.

I think people don't realize that they how little they need to train. It is entirely possible to complete a 10 mile (even a 14 mile) training run without taking in calories. It's all about managing effort.
2010-09-14 7:44 AM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
As a newbie looking in, it certainly seems overly complex.  And expensive by design.

I am getting ready for the Chicago Marathon right now and have no idea what I am doing come race day.  I definitely have been holding off eating on my training runs...starting gu's at an hour seems excessive.

I cannot even fathom figuring out nutrition for long course.  I sometimes take a gel when I go over an hour during a race, but I think it's more for the mental boost.  I cannot imagine bottles of this and special needs bags full of that.  Yikes.

I don't really want to eat a lot while I am racing...glad to hear about the ultra racer who went minimal.  Maybe there's hope for me.  I'll definitely start gearing myself to the live off the course mentality (thanks for the reminder Bryan)...though it pisses me off the Chicago Marathon is using the very expensive new gatorade. 

*stomps off to the store to buy one bottle only to make sure it doesn't induce vomit*
2010-09-14 8:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
Scout7 - 2010-09-14 7:36 AM Well, I know that if I took in calories the way some people claim to, I'd be vomiting after every run. I think people don't realize that they how little they need to train. It is entirely possible to complete a 10 mile (even a 14 mile) training run without taking in calories. It's all about managing effort.


agreed....i can do 10-12 miles with nothing...just plenty of water.  i will be hungry afterwards though....
2010-09-14 9:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?

I think the intention of the nutrition companies (besides making money) is to "simplify" the triathlete's training or racing day, it is my opinion that the athlete themself sometimes over-complicate nutrition. I learned this last year while IM training. On any given ride there were timers going off and my training partners were obsessing over how many calories they were taking in. It seemed like they were paying more attention to complicated nutrition formulas than to how their body felt. Again, this is just my opinion, but I felt that nutrition and hydration should be mostly by feel. The more long rides and bricks I did, the more in tune with my nutritional needs I became. I kept it simple, trained with what would be on the course (Gatorade, Powerbars and Gels). I think this helped me come race day because the weather was a lot cooler than the hot summer days I trained in and I was able to hydrate and eat more by feel. I never felt bloated, I never felt hungry and I nagative split my IM run. I took this advice from BryanCD  

One other observation, especially at shorter distance races, is that people seem to take in way too much nutrition. It seems strange to me that people down gels and powerbars on short course races. Unless they dont eat prior to the race, I cant see the need to take in so many calories in a race that lasts 1-2 hours! It seems to be a triathlete thing too, maybe because we like "products" and "gear" but I've done plenty of runnign races where people are out there for hours and dont seem to consume so much (Except for the post race food!).

These are j?ust my opinions but you have to figure out what works for you, just like all the hype surrounding shoes, equipment etc. There's no magic product, just hard work. The simpler you keep your nutrition strategy, the less you have to think about it on race day   ?



Edited by riorio 2010-09-14 9:06 AM


2010-09-14 9:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
Just one guy's $0.02: conditions obviously make a big difference. We're on a forum offering advice, but some of us live in Banff and some of us live in Phoenix. It's one thing to swim/bike at 7am in 60-65 degree weather and a whole other thing running under a blazing sun in 90+ degree weather.

If you're properly nourished and hydrated and not running at noon in Texas heat, you absolutely don't need anything for an hour's effort. The second hour you might feel it a bit if you don't drink anything, but it probably won't affect your performance if you're mentally strong. 

Going beyond 2 hours it becomes important to drink, even under normal conditions. What I've been taught, which seems to work well, is to drink more than you feel like, but in small servings at a time. 

Beyond 3 hours you need to start getting some calories in through food/gel also.
 
2010-09-14 9:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
quincyf - 2010-09-14 8:44 PM As a newbie looking in, it certainly seems overly complex.  And expensive by design.

I am getting ready for the Chicago Marathon right now and have no idea what I am doing come race day.  I definitely have been holding off eating on my training runs...starting gu's at an hour seems excessive.

I cannot even fathom figuring out nutrition for long course.  I sometimes take a gel when I go over an hour during a race, but I think it's more for the mental boost.  I cannot imagine bottles of this and special needs bags full of that.  Yikes.

I don't really want to eat a lot while I am racing...glad to hear about the ultra racer who went minimal.  Maybe there's hope for me.  I'll definitely start gearing myself to the live off the course mentality (thanks for the reminder Bryan)...though it pisses me off the Chicago Marathon is using the very expensive new gatorade. 

*stomps off to the store to buy one bottle only to make sure it doesn't induce vomit*


Jeff Galloway agrees with you!

I suppose I should stop being lazy and look up the science myself. His spiel is that most people, even really skinny ones, have way more than enough fat reserves to get them through some pretty long runs. The sugars people suck down are really for fooling your brain into convincing you you CAN keep going.

I've found the fitter and smaller I get, the FAR FAR less nutrition I need.
2010-09-14 9:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
TriAya - 2010-09-14 10:31 AM


Jeff Galloway agrees with you!

I suppose I should stop being lazy and look up the science myself. His spiel is that most people, even really skinny ones, have way more than enough fat reserves to get them through some pretty long runs. The sugars people suck down are really for fooling your brain into convincing you you CAN keep going.

I've found the fitter and smaller I get, the FAR FAR less nutrition I need.


Exactly.

From my readings and research, calories burned is primarily based on distance, and weight (yes other factors weigh in, but they are minimal and we have no control over them). So, a 160 lb person running 10 miles consumes fewer calories than a 200 lb. person running the same distance. Effort over the distance does not change the calories burned.

Effort does, however, determine the primary source of fuel. The easier the effort, the more calories come from fat vs. glycogen reserves.

Another reason for people to slow down in their running. You'll be able to go much further without a need for calories, and hence lose weight.
2010-09-14 9:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Do we go overkill with our nutrition?
One issue I have seen is people race harder then they train, so the nutrition plan that they tested and used in training goes out the window during the race. During the race hydration gets messed up because your body can't process the calories fast enough and the liquids get held up along with the food in the stomach and you get dehydrated even though you try to take in plenty of water.

I learned from experience and seeing the experiences from other in my TRI club, taking in too many calories has resulted in trouble on the run portion of HIMs or IMs even though they didn't have an issue in training.

I found that taking in less calories works better for me during a race so I practice it during my long rides and runs. On the bike for example a clif bar in the first hour and a couple of gels each hour gets me through a 4 hour bike ride. I have run up to a HM on water and a couple of gels. I prefer ACCEL Gels (Choc).

Everybody is an expermint of one so what works for someone may not work for someone else. For me simple and less works.

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