General Discussion Triathlon Talk » I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions Rss Feed  
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2010-11-06 1:07 PM

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Subject: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
First off, big thanks to Jorge for setting up the group Powertap buy. I was on the fence about getting a Powertap, and I'm very glad that I decided to do it. I opted to buy a Garmin 500 instead of the Joule, and I'm glad with my decision. I only have one issue, and that's with the speed/cadence sensor, which was synced. My speed seemed to vary greatly on the display, as if the Garmin was still relying on GPS - any way to have it only use the speed/cadence sensor for speed?

I did my first ride today with power, and it was quite eye opening. I now realize why I feel tired going up a certain hill at 15mph, even though the incline doesn't seem that steep - at 15mph I'm over 400 watts.

I also realized that it's damn had to average 225 watts on just about any descent. Climbing on the other hand, is quite different. I often found I was over 500 watts when I was out of the saddle.

Going out of the saddle doesn't really save much time on climbs, and it looks like the wattage jumps dramatically. From now on I'm staying seated on nearly every climb, even if I'm only going 12-15mph.

I'm planning on doing a FTP test this coming Thursday, which is Veterans Day, meaning no work. I'm hoping that I'm over 300 watts for my one hour test, but I'll have to wait and see.

I didn't want to go too hard today as I have a 10-mile road race tomorrow morning. The ride I did was a regular training loop, and I've averaged 23.5mph when I push it, so this was substantially lower than a hard effort.

For those of you that are unsure about getting a powermeter, do it if you can. I'm really looking forward to some painful training sessions this winter to kick some butt when the spring comes around!

Today's data:
distance: 21.5 miles
time: 1:03:11
avg speed: 20.38 mph
avg power: 268 watts
max power: 853 watts
avg HR: 140
max HR: 159




Edited by natethomas2000 2010-11-06 1:19 PM


2010-11-06 1:22 PM
in reply to: #3198473

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
Welcome to the world of power. Now, throw away your HR monitor and drop the acronym 'MPH' from here on out. Watts, watts, watts.

Jamie
2010-11-06 3:24 PM
in reply to: #3198473

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
Welcome to the wonderful world of power

Was there a lot of hills/wind ?

20.38mph for an average of 268 watts seems on the slow side.

On a flat ride I could probably hold that speed with 200 watts. At 268 I would probably be 24ish MPH. And I am not light.

Other power users, am I off base here ?



Edited by marcag 2010-11-06 3:29 PM
2010-11-06 3:51 PM
in reply to: #3198473

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
As a first time power user, I'm just writing what my Garmin said. The loop is a bit hilly, but no overly so. There was a bit of wind also. It was in the low 40's, so I wasn't wearing the most aero clothing. I just synced the Garmin to the Powertap - is there any need to calibrate it or do anything else?

Edited by natethomas2000 2010-11-06 3:53 PM
2010-11-06 4:07 PM
in reply to: #3198591

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
I am sure you did everything right, it's just surprising. If that 268 is right and you were going easy, wow, you have a pretty high FTP. But it doesn't correlate well to your speed, by my experience. But I am the one that may be off.

You can calibrate it. Go into Bike Setting, Ant+pwr, there is an option to calibrate there.

Also, you may have turned off, or not disabled excluding zeros, which means when you are not pedalling, and generating 0 watts, this gets excluded from the average.

I hope I wasn't coming across as critical, I just sense there may have been something wrong so want to make sure you aren't wasting valuable effort with wrong data. It just seemed a little off to me. Maybe others can comment.
2010-11-06 4:28 PM
in reply to: #3198473

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
When I synced the Garmin prior to my ride I had a message that said 'calibration successful' - current calibration '-6339'

I'm not sure what that number means, though. I also had the option to 'auto zero' the powermeter, which I did.

There's a setting for the power average that has these two options: 'non-zero average' and 'zero average' - 'non-zero' was the default setting that I used. Is that correct?

I am a quite strong cyclist, and had the 3rd fastest overall bike leg in my last race. I weigh 160 lbs at 6', and I come from a running and rowing background.

I'm not sure at all if the numbers are accurate, but I guess if the powermeter is inaccurate, and stays that way, it will still be a useful training tool.



Edited by natethomas2000 2010-11-06 4:42 PM


2010-11-06 4:55 PM
in reply to: #3198574

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
there are obv lots of factors. one big 1 is how much you weigh. From your avatar you do not look that big.
I would say that off the bat that power number looks quite high for that speed.
I ride in a rollng area, normally 1000ft total accent over 50mi, and I go about 20.5mph off of ~190w (I weigh 148lbs)

I thinkyou made a good decision to go with power. Good luck.
2010-11-06 6:07 PM
in reply to: #3198615

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
natethomas2000 - 2010-11-06 4:28 PM

There's a setting for the power average that has these two options: 'non-zero average' and 'zero average' - 'non-zero' was the default setting that I used. Is that correct?




It's a matter of personal preference. A 'zero average' will usually give a lower number since it includes the 0 wattage when going downhill not pedalling, or in curves not pedalling...

Imagine going up and down a hill, 3min up at 400w average, 1 min down not pedalling. 'Non zero average' will tell you your average is 400w, 'zero average' will tell you 300w
2010-11-06 6:07 PM
in reply to: #3198473

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
Yes, set it so that it includes zeros in the average power.  Depending on the type of ride, terrain, riding style... it may make little difference or it might make quite a bit.

I'm not sure why Garmin has no zeros as a default. 
2010-11-06 6:13 PM
in reply to: #3198473

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
I'll change that setting. However I virtually never feeewheel unless I'm literally spinning out at 35 plus mph. With daylight savings, I'm not sure I can try replicating the ride until next weekend to check it out.
2010-11-06 6:29 PM
in reply to: #3198574

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
marcag - 2010-11-06 1:24 PM Welcome to the wonderful world of power

Was there a lot of hills/wind ?

20.38mph for an average of 268 watts seems on the slow side.

On a flat ride I could probably hold that speed with 200 watts. At 268 I would probably be 24ish MPH. And I am not light.

Other power users, am I off base here ?

Last HIM I did back in September, I stayed at an average power of 170 watts, average speed was just over 20mph, and I weigh 150.  Course was slightly hilly / no wind.


2010-11-06 6:44 PM
in reply to: #3198708

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
spudone - 2010-11-06 6:29 PM
Last HIM I did back in September, I stayed at an average power of 170 watts, average speed was just over 20mph, and I weigh 150.  Course was slightly hilly / no wind.


That sounds more like it. 20 mph on 264 watts, at his weight on a bit hilly course, something seems odd


Edited by marcag 2010-11-06 6:46 PM
2010-11-06 7:16 PM
in reply to: #3198473

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
A couple of things----first---I'm with those not putting you down but right off the bat I was wow'd by the ave watts and the speed---seems off to me---I ride at 145 in a rolling area and ave any where from just over 20mph to 22+ on that loop and I'm not close to 260+ ave watts for that...

And if you want to turn off the gps---not sure how the 500 works but I ASSume like the forerunner line that you can go into settings and turn off the gps....

Bottom line---use your PT and work this winter---you won't have anyone close to you next year on the bike!!!

Edit to add:  saw the two posts above mine and those numbers seem more correct to me---a May HIM I do around here is hilly and I ave 21mph and I'm in the 170-180w range at 145lbs...

Edited by Skippy74 2010-11-06 7:17 PM
2010-11-06 8:32 PM
in reply to: #3198473

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
I'm doing a 10-mile running race tomorrow morning, but now I'd like to get out on my bike afterwards to see if changing the settings does anything, even if it's only for half an hour or so.
2010-11-06 9:52 PM
in reply to: #3198473

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
i agree with others.  at 265 watts i am averaging 24+ mph i am at 164 lbs.

was this into the wind the entire way?  that could be i also did 15 min into wind at 290 watts and ave measly 22 mph.


Edited by trix 2010-11-06 9:53 PM
2010-11-07 7:21 AM
in reply to: #3198473

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
natethomas2000 - 2010-11-06 1:07 PM First off, big thanks to Jorge for setting up the group Powertap buy. I was on the fence about getting a Powertap, and I'm very glad that I decided to do it. I opted to buy a Garmin 500 instead of the Joule, and I'm glad with my decision. I only have one issue, and that's with the speed/cadence sensor, which was synced. My speed seemed to vary greatly on the display, as if the Garmin was still relying on GPS - any way to have it only use the speed/cadence sensor for speed?

I did my first ride today with power, and it was quite eye opening. I now realize why I feel tired going up a certain hill at 15mph, even though the incline doesn't seem that steep - at 15mph I'm over 400 watts.

I also realized that it's damn had to average 225 watts on just about any descent. Climbing on the other hand, is quite different. I often found I was over 500 watts when I was out of the saddle.

Going out of the saddle doesn't really save much time on climbs, and it looks like the wattage jumps dramatically. From now on I'm staying seated on nearly every climb, even if I'm only going 12-15mph.

I'm planning on doing a FTP test this coming Thursday, which is Veterans Day, meaning no work. I'm hoping that I'm over 300 watts for my one hour test, but I'll have to wait and see.

I didn't want to go too hard today as I have a 10-mile road race tomorrow morning. The ride I did was a regular training loop, and I've averaged 23.5mph when I push it, so this was substantially lower than a hard effort.

For those of you that are unsure about getting a powermeter, do it if you can. I'm really looking forward to some painful training sessions this winter to kick some butt when the spring comes around!

Today's data:
distance: 21.5 miles
time: 1:03:11
avg speed: 20.38 mph
avg power: 268 watts
max power: 853 watts
avg HR: 140
max HR: 159




Glad you got the power tap! keep on riding and learning to use it, most importantly remember to always zero the torque before every ride so you keep your PM calibrated and the readings as consistent as possible.

In terms of the data from this ride, well, it was the 1st and the notes you wrote and on target, the more you ride the more you'll learn. once you have data of several rides you can post more and then we can get down to breaking down whether you need to work on your position, if the PM is calibrated etc.

have fun training with power!


2010-11-07 8:54 AM
in reply to: #3199146

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
JorgeM - 2010-11-07 8:21 AM
natethomas2000 - 2010-11-06 1:07 PM First off, big thanks to Jorge for setting up the group Powertap buy. I was on the fence about getting a Powertap, and I'm very glad that I decided to do it. I opted to buy a Garmin 500 instead of the Joule, and I'm glad with my decision. I only have one issue, and that's with the speed/cadence sensor, which was synced. My speed seemed to vary greatly on the display, as if the Garmin was still relying on GPS - any way to have it only use the speed/cadence sensor for speed?

I did my first ride today with power, and it was quite eye opening. I now realize why I feel tired going up a certain hill at 15mph, even though the incline doesn't seem that steep - at 15mph I'm over 400 watts.

I also realized that it's damn had to average 225 watts on just about any descent. Climbing on the other hand, is quite different. I often found I was over 500 watts when I was out of the saddle.

Going out of the saddle doesn't really save much time on climbs, and it looks like the wattage jumps dramatically. From now on I'm staying seated on nearly every climb, even if I'm only going 12-15mph.

I'm planning on doing a FTP test this coming Thursday, which is Veterans Day, meaning no work. I'm hoping that I'm over 300 watts for my one hour test, but I'll have to wait and see.

I didn't want to go too hard today as I have a 10-mile road race tomorrow morning. The ride I did was a regular training loop, and I've averaged 23.5mph when I push it, so this was substantially lower than a hard effort.

For those of you that are unsure about getting a powermeter, do it if you can. I'm really looking forward to some painful training sessions this winter to kick some butt when the spring comes around!

Today's data:
distance: 21.5 miles
time: 1:03:11
avg speed: 20.38 mph
avg power: 268 watts
max power: 853 watts
avg HR: 140
max HR: 159




Glad you got the power tap! keep on riding and learning to use it, most importantly remember to always zero the torque before every ride so you keep your PM calibrated and the readings as consistent as possible.

In terms of the data from this ride, well, it was the 1st and the notes you wrote and on target, the more you ride the more you'll learn. once you have data of several rides you can post more and then we can get down to breaking down whether you need to work on your position, if the PM is calibrated etc.

have fun training with power!


Granted it will be a while before I can ride again, since I am just two weeks out from knee surgery...BUT ,for  when I can ride again can you explain this? Whenever I ride I make sure that the PT reads zero watts when I coast.......is this what you mean? Or is there something else that I should be doing??
Thanks....... 
2010-11-07 9:07 AM
in reply to: #3198821

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
natethomas2000 - 2010-11-06 9:32 PM I'm doing a 10-mile running race tomorrow morning, but now I'd like to get out on my bike afterwards to see if changing the settings does anything, even if it's only for half an hour or so.


Ahhh now you GET the whole power addiction!!!!  You always want to go try/test more/different things....enjoy!!!!!
2010-11-07 10:40 AM
in reply to: #3198473

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
10-miler is done - 1st in age group!!!

Now, to eat a bit and then go out for a ride to re-test the powertap.
2010-11-07 11:51 AM
in reply to: #3199299

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
natethomas2000 - 2010-11-07 8:40 AM 10-miler is done - 1st in age group!!!

Now, to eat a bit and then go out for a ride to re-test the powertap.

One quick thought: are you using an external speed / cadence sensor with your setup?  I think you can do that with both Garmin and the Joule 2.0 -- in which case you need to set the wheel size in your computer.

I thought hm.. 1st in AG, maybe you're going faster than the computer says?  All this chat about power accuracy and no one asked if the MPH readout was calibrated.
2010-11-07 12:17 PM
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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
spudone - 2010-11-07 12:51 PM
natethomas2000 - 2010-11-07 8:40 AM 10-miler is done - 1st in age group!!!

Now, to eat a bit and then go out for a ride to re-test the powertap.

One quick thought: are you using an external speed / cadence sensor with your setup?  I think you can do that with both Garmin and the Joule 2.0 -- in which case you need to set the wheel size in your computer.

I thought hm.. 1st in AG, maybe you're going faster than the computer says?  All this chat about power accuracy and no one asked if the MPH readout was calibrated.


That could be true! I did another ride after my race this morning, and half way through I got a message on my Garmin registering the wheel size. My HR on the ride today was 158 which would normally equate to a speed around 23 mph, but I only got a readout of 21.4. The HR could be a bit high from running 10 miles a 6:33 pace earlier in the day, though. The speed was jumping all around from 12mph of a low to probably around 33mph on some downhills.

If this is the case, how do I set the wheel size in the Garmin 500? When I initially set the 500 up there wasn't any time where it asked wheel/tire size.

Here's today's data:

time: 40:12
distance: 14.35 miles
speed: 21.4 mph
avg HR: 158
avg power: 262 watts

EDIT: I just checked, and the setting in my Garmin has the wheel size at 1785mm - is that the size of a 650 wheel? From my old Cateye computer I think that the wheel size should be 20xx, but I don't remember the exact number. I guess this is the culprit and the avg power is close to what it should be.

The wheel is a 700 with 700x23 Serfas tire

Edited by natethomas2000 2010-11-07 12:30 PM


2010-11-07 1:35 PM
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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
According to a chart on Sheldon Brown....2097.  Seems like that should take care of the problem!  Never doubted your power ave---seemed right from your season but the mph just didn't match up unless your position was horrible, it was hilly course, or strong headwind......

And nice run this am!
2010-11-07 3:09 PM
in reply to: #3198473

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions

I believe "out of the box" the Garmin 500 uses GPS to determine speed.
The Joule doesn't have a GPS hence requires wheel sizing I believe.

The message you get while riding that it adjusted the wheel size happens to me regularly. As a matte of fact, one day I was riding with a 310xt and 500 at the same time at it adjusted both at the same time, which was weird.

This adjustment is then used when there is no GPS signal for example on the indoor trainer.

On the 500 with a PT you don't need the external speed/cadence sensor, either indoors or out

If you want to be sure, use gmap-pedometer to map out today's ride and see the distance. I bet you it's right.

There was something weird in that file yesterday. 800w for 15 seconds, is pretty intense.



Edited by marcag 2010-11-07 3:36 PM
2010-11-07 4:09 PM
in reply to: #3198473

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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
I guess this is the culprit and the avg power is close to what it should be.

I think your average mph will come up a bit.  But also like the earlier posts mentioned, make sure to include zeros in the average power - which will scale it down a little.

It's probably a combination of those two things.
2010-11-07 5:06 PM
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Subject: RE: I have the Power!!!!! - First impressions
The default setting for the wheel size was about 15% smaller than my actual wheel size. Using that same ratio, my speeds were probably closer to the 23mph range, which probably equates more with watts in the 262-268 range.

Now I want to go out and do more testing!!! But weather over the next two days is calling for rain - Thursday, Veteran's Day, will have to be the day for me to test. I'm planning on doing a 1 hour FTP test then.
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