General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Kick Time vs. Pull Time Rss Feed  
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2010-11-16 8:13 PM
in reply to: #3213471

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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
sand101 - 2010-11-16 12:49 PM

I have pool work on tap for this afternoon and will duly flog myself with some streamline kick drills and see what kind of ratio I can generate.


Did my workout tonight:

Freestyle 50:  :35
Kick 50:  :52

Ratio: .69

Now to see what TJ can do so that I see how far I have to go with kick drills...


2010-11-16 8:47 PM
in reply to: #3211265

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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
I've recently been working on learning a 2 beat kick and getting the timing working right. One thing I found that helped me feel it was to alternate 100s swimming with short fins and without. With the fins I could really feel the driving rotation from the kick feeding into the catch and stroke. With the fins off, I'd try to re-capture that feeling. Rinse and repeat. Good luck.
2010-11-16 9:46 PM
in reply to: #3211265

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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
First Disclaimer, USA Swimming/ ASCA Level 1 Coach, also completed Level 2 Stroke School recently, very inexperienced coach, coaching age group swimmers, triathlete myself, somewhat of a FOP swimmer.

To the contrary of the popular belief and preaching by triathlon coaches, kicking and kicking for propulsion is fundamental to swimming. All USA Swimming and other leading coaching experts agree and every single world class swimmer is an excellent kicker. Enough of that.

People that naturally sink more than others will have to develop a rather strong kick to maintain body position at a minimum.
Front to back bias (pull vs. kick) is different for every swimmer, no one fit all solution here.
Yes, every stroke construction begins with kick, reference any book you want.
Kick sets a must.
Kick sets with fins are excellent tool for developing a strong compact kick.
Discussion on 2,4 and 6 beat kick should start with examination of kicking among world class swimmers. The info can be found in Stroke School, you would be surprised about the info.
Among world class 1500m free swimmers, everything goes from 2 to 6 beat kicks.......
That is all in this episode.
Enjoy and keep kicking.
 
2010-11-17 12:32 AM
in reply to: #3211265

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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
Good points all regarding kicking for rotation, propulsion, and reducing drag.

When you come to a turn on the swim course and the crowd bunches up and slows down, and/or you make the turn and you're now swimming into the chop, these are times when it's really good to have a strong kick, so you can turn on the afterburners and get moving again.
2010-11-17 11:18 AM
in reply to: #3214191

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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
All USA Swimming and other leading coaching experts agree and every single world class swimmer is an excellent kicker. Enough of that. 


But you MUST qualify "excellent".. Excellent does not mean "strong", as in, could go really fast in a kick set. As for propulsion kicking, this is very debatable, especially with 2-beat kickers. The argument that the 2-beat helps leverage the body rotation, rather than propelling, is a compelling one. There is no evidence, to my knowledge, that this is NOT the case. In fact, given the ubiquitous timing of kick and pull in elite swimmers, I would argue that the evidence would point TOWARDS the kick as an article of leverage (even in 6 beat kickers, who share this timing), PROPULSION = F(PULL POWER, KICK TIMING, kick power [de-emphasis added]), rather than the notion of it as propulsion, i.e., PROPULSION = KICK POWER + PULL POWER.

This was NOT covered in the USS stroke school curriculum when I took it, and it is no wonder, since the eminent swim scholar Ernie Maglischo regards the proper timing as so prevalent that it doesn't even merit instruction, it simply, "just happens". From my experience, however, it does NOT, not in age groupers, and most certainly not in adults who come to swimming later in life. And, it is the difference between breaking 2:00/100 yards, all the way down to breaking 1:30 per 100 yards - this level of proficiency is MAJORITY ABOUT timing of arms and legs, and the remainder about "do no harm" with breathing, and pull technique. USA Swimming would do their beginning coaches a world of good if they developed a curriculum specifically designed to train coaches to improve rhythm and timing in their athletes (as I have done for myself).

All that said, I am not disagreeing with you that kick practice is a must, and I feel that kicking on a board can have many benefits over "focusing on your kick" while you swim along. But just having a "strong kick" does not make it a "excellent kick". In my opinion, I have to say that triathlon coaches who DISREGARD the kick as important are wrong, but those who believe it is more about FINESSE than power are right.

regards,
r.b.
2010-11-17 1:25 PM
in reply to: #3211265

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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
What I've found for me at the moment is that I still haven't figured out the timing for the kick.  I try to time it with each stroke, but what I noticed yesterday is that to seemingly time it right, I actually need to speed up my stroke a bit.  I found that my left side was sinking a bit and I think it was cause I was taking too much time before initiating the stroke and kick.  Thoughts on this?  Obviously everyone's stroke rate is a bit different, but how "quick/often" should a stroke feel?

For what it's worth I generally average around 19-22 strokes / 25yards, and can get it as low as 17 by really focusing on the pull and having a longer glide.



2010-11-17 2:35 PM
in reply to: #3211265

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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
Back from the pool and here's what I got

50 yard kick, with board, no fins - :35
50 yard swim, 2 beat kick - :27
50 yard swim, 6 beat kick - :25

RPE was about the same.

Lots of good discussion here. I want to comment but I'm tied up with some work. Will try and circle back around later.
2010-11-17 2:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
tjfry - 2010-11-17 3:35 PM Back from the pool and here's what I got

50 yard kick, with board, no fins - :35



That's about my best, all out, 50 yard time....
2010-11-17 3:27 PM
in reply to: #3211265

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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
just like anything else we do with triathlons, the more you do it the better you will get.  the more you kick and the more you kick relatively hard, the more efficient you legs will become.   we need to train our legs to be more fluid with the kicking motion.  too many people pull or just drag there legs behind them, and say "i will always have a bad kick".  unfortunately most tri-s have a short swim so they can get away with that.  However just like in the bike or the run, if you have a weakness it will hold you back.

also if your pull is faster than your swim.  then your kick propulsion is not the problem.  it is how your kick and/or your core is throwing off your body position.
2010-11-17 5:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
Thanks for the motivation -- I've been phoning in the kick sets for the past few weeks. Today I put some effort into the kick set.

I managed a :46 and a bunch of :47's on a set of 50's kicking
I had a couple :31's swimming from a push yesterday
0.66 ratio swim:kick time

I'm not in TJ's league, but it looks like his ratio is about the same.

2010-11-17 7:47 PM
in reply to: #3215750

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Subject: RE: Kick Time vs. Pull Time
oldntrin - 2010-11-17 5:29 PM

I'm not in TJ's league, but it looks like his ratio is about the same.



Yep.  Looks like my kick isn't deficient.  I just suck all around. ;-)


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