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2010-11-23 7:44 AM

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Subject: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
Should I do a long run while in maintenance run mode?  I've had the goal of starting at 150 mile/month in sept and increasing to about 170 in Dec.  I haven't been doing any "long" runs though.  Maybe 2 have hit 10 miles, and only because I needed to make up some miles.  I've actually been trying to cap it around 8 miles, just because in the past that's been my over/under point for feel good the next day vs. sore legs (now when I've run more I still feel good, but it's a mental thing of trying to stay under).  So - am I losing anythign by not doing a long run?  I figure, I'm not racing long anytime soon, so why put that extra hurt on my body?  Miles 10-12's toll is way bigger than miles 4-6.  I will sometimes do 10-12 as 6 at lunch and 4-6 in the evening, but I don't think that counts.  If I had the consistancy of schedule, I'd probably run 7 x 6 miles per week.

Follow up - I'm way under my allotted 10% build, but I'm running faster, not meaning speedwork, but just pace average - for Sept to nov I've dropped from 7:53 to 7:29 to 7:26 (so far) pace avgs (not intentionally, just from running by RPE).  Two reasons - time and because it "feels" like a better workout for me to run a little faster and shorter than slower and longer (and I've had no issues with that pace in terms of injury/fatigue, my days off running feel more like mental breaks than physical).  I don't pay much attention to HR while running anymore, but when I look at the data, I'm almost never averaging above Z2.  What are the pros/cons of this vs constant (and maybe slower) pace and maxing out the 10% build?  FWIW, I'm targeting a HIM A race next year, but I'd also like to see my Oly times come down this season too.


2010-11-23 7:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
jsiegs - 2010-11-23 8:44 AM

Should I do a long run while in maintenance run mode? 


Short answer: Yes.

Less short answer: Depends on your goals. You should do a long run, but the length of that run will be determined by what your goals are for next season. Splits are not long runs. If you want to do longer races, though, you need to run long. The reason miles 10-12 hurt more than miles 4-6 is because you don't run those miles that often. Run them a lot, they don't hurt.
2010-11-23 7:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
i think this far out, and no longer races coming up you're fine capping it at 8-10, and more so if you are getting in that sort of mileage without the longer run (i think too many runners look to the long run to fill out mileage).

I'm actually splitting up a few runs a week (even at 40-50mpw) as its simply letting me recover faster. i'm slowly adding mileage to one of those runs on each double day per week so down that road one will be where my single day mileage is right now, but its helping a lot with feeling fresh for each workout (or fresher).

with the mileage goals you have + the race distances you are talking about, i would not worry too much about the longer runs being long right now (you may want/need to have one a few miles longer than the others simply due to time/etc), but right now you should be fine. as races get closers you'll want to get that up a bit, but going much past 12-15 is probably not worth your time with yoru goals.

2010-11-23 8:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
jsiegs - 2010-11-22 8:44 AM
Follow up - I'm way under my allotted 10% build, but I'm running faster, not meaning speedwork, but just pace average - for Sept to nov I've dropped from 7:53 to 7:29 to 7:26 (so far) pace avgs (not intentionally, just from running by RPE).  Two reasons - time and because it "feels" like a better workout for me to run a little faster and shorter than slower and longer (and I've had no issues with that pace in terms of injury/fatigue, my days off running feel more like mental breaks than physical). 


This was how I injured myself last time.   "Patience is a virtue"  is my new motto.  

Good luck with your increases!
2010-11-23 8:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
I agree that at this point in your season, a "long run" of 8-10 is probably fine.  I also agree that getting your long run up to 13-15 would be better.  170 a month plus a weekly 13 puts you at a very good place to start your in-season training for a 70.3 A race.  The same mileage with a weekly 10 isn't that bad either (it's more than 95% of your competition is doing in season, let alone during the off season).  But I know you well, and I know that you aren't happy with top 5%.

Most of all, I agree with "it depends on your goals" -- both long term and short term (specific to your present training block).
2010-11-23 9:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
Thanks all.  Really good advice.  I think I'll start getting at least an 8-10 miler in each week until next year.  Then I'll think about extending that run a bit for HIM build in June.  Another reason I'm avoiding the long run is perspective I got from Skiba's book on training with power (don't quote me on this, but it's the jist I got) - basically, if I do two 6 mile runs faster than one 12 mile run, the physiological benefit will be higher, and the toll will be the same or less.  I have no need to run miles 10-15 for a race anytime soon, so I can wait to get those miles starting about 4 months out of my race (and with the amount of miles I'm running, I don't think I'll have any problems starting right up with the longer runs).  So I guess my compromise is to run miles 8-10 starting now, which I can safely run at a good pace without ruining the next day's run/other workouts.


2010-11-23 9:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
jsiegs - 2010-11-23 10:35 AM

Thanks all.  Really good advice.  I think I'll start getting at least an 8-10 miler in each week until next year.  Then I'll think about extending that run a bit for HIM build in June.  Another reason I'm avoiding the long run is perspective I got from Skiba's book on training with power (don't quote me on this, but it's the jist I got) - basically, if I do two 6 mile runs faster than one 12 mile run, the physiological benefit will be higher, and the toll will be the same or less.  I have no need to run miles 10-15 for a race anytime soon, so I can wait to get those miles starting about 4 months out of my race (and with the amount of miles I'm running, I don't think I'll have any problems starting right up with the longer runs).  So I guess my compromise is to run miles 8-10 starting now, which I can safely run at a good pace without ruining the next day's run/other workouts.



I disagree with the idea that two 6 mile runs at a harder effort is functionally equivalent to one 12 mile run at a lower effort level. Apples and oranges, with two different purposes to each.

I also see no reason NOT to run 10-15 mile runs in the off season, or at least to not consider running them. Not every week, but to exclude them completely (assuming you have the time to do them), then why not do them? If the reason is that you take too long to recover from those runs, run them at an easier effort level. I think you're better off doing 10-15 mile runs at a lower effort now, than 8-10 at a higher effort.
2010-11-23 10:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
Scout7 - 2010-11-23 10:48 AM
jsiegs - 2010-11-23 10:35 AM Thanks all.  Really good advice.  I think I'll start getting at least an 8-10 miler in each week until next year.  Then I'll think about extending that run a bit for HIM build in June.  Another reason I'm avoiding the long run is perspective I got from Skiba's book on training with power (don't quote me on this, but it's the jist I got) - basically, if I do two 6 mile runs faster than one 12 mile run, the physiological benefit will be higher, and the toll will be the same or less.  I have no need to run miles 10-15 for a race anytime soon, so I can wait to get those miles starting about 4 months out of my race (and with the amount of miles I'm running, I don't think I'll have any problems starting right up with the longer runs).  So I guess my compromise is to run miles 8-10 starting now, which I can safely run at a good pace without ruining the next day's run/other workouts.
I disagree with the idea that two 6 mile runs at a harder effort is functionally equivalent to one 12 mile run at a lower effort level. Apples and oranges, with two different purposes to each. I also see no reason NOT to run 10-15 mile runs in the off season, or at least to not consider running them. Not every week, but to exclude them completely (assuming you have the time to do them), then why not do them? If the reason is that you take too long to recover from those runs, run them at an easier effort level. I think you're better off doing 10-15 mile runs at a lower effort now, than 8-10 at a higher effort.


Totally agree on apples to oranges.  I guess I break it down into "getting faster" and "endourance" in my "not an expert at all" judgement.  I'm trying to "get faster" now.  So two faster 6 mile runs do better for me than one slower 12 mile run, with same or less cost.  In what I've read/heard ect, I've come to the understanding that long runs won't make your critical pace (what Skiba calls your 1 hour max pace or about 10k pace) faster, but will let you run closer to your CP for longer than 1 hour runs.  I'm not saying running more miles won't make your CP lower, but specifically doing 10-15 as a long run as part of your weekly miles won't.  Improve CP now, improve endourance closer to the race...that seems to be the strategy I've heard a lot and what I'm trying to do.

Does that make sense?  We may be at a crossroads in philosophy however.
2010-11-23 10:20 AM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
jsiegs - 2010-11-23 11:10 AM

Scout7 - 2010-11-23 10:48 AM
jsiegs - 2010-11-23 10:35 AM Thanks all.  Really good advice.  I think I'll start getting at least an 8-10 miler in each week until next year.  Then I'll think about extending that run a bit for HIM build in June.  Another reason I'm avoiding the long run is perspective I got from Skiba's book on training with power (don't quote me on this, but it's the jist I got) - basically, if I do two 6 mile runs faster than one 12 mile run, the physiological benefit will be higher, and the toll will be the same or less.  I have no need to run miles 10-15 for a race anytime soon, so I can wait to get those miles starting about 4 months out of my race (and with the amount of miles I'm running, I don't think I'll have any problems starting right up with the longer runs).  So I guess my compromise is to run miles 8-10 starting now, which I can safely run at a good pace without ruining the next day's run/other workouts.
I disagree with the idea that two 6 mile runs at a harder effort is functionally equivalent to one 12 mile run at a lower effort level. Apples and oranges, with two different purposes to each. I also see no reason NOT to run 10-15 mile runs in the off season, or at least to not consider running them. Not every week, but to exclude them completely (assuming you have the time to do them), then why not do them? If the reason is that you take too long to recover from those runs, run them at an easier effort level. I think you're better off doing 10-15 mile runs at a lower effort now, than 8-10 at a higher effort.


Totally agree on apples to oranges.  I guess I break it down into "getting faster" and "endourance" in my "not an expert at all" judgement.  I'm trying to "get faster" now.  So two faster 6 mile runs do better for me than one slower 12 mile run, with same or less cost.  In what I've read/heard ect, I've come to the understanding that long runs won't make your critical pace (what Skiba calls your 1 hour max pace or about 10k pace) faster, but will let you run closer to your CP for longer than 1 hour runs.  I'm not saying running more miles won't make your CP lower, but specifically doing 10-15 as a long run as part of your weekly miles won't.  Improve CP now, improve endourance closer to the race...that seems to be the strategy I've heard a lot and what I'm trying to do.

Does that make sense?  We may be at a crossroads in philosophy however.


I guess I'm not viewing this as an either/or scenario. You do both. You run those 6 miles at a harder effort, and you run longer runs. Each works a different aspect of your fitness, and each has a place.

I think NOW is the time to improve your endurance, specifically because it takes longer and requires more time (to run more miles). What takes more time a 6 mile tempo run, or a 15 mile easy run?

Build your volume now, when you don't have a race looming. Keep some harder efforts, but focus on running a whole lot of easy stuff more than worrying about getting "faster".

You build steps. You get a faster pace by running harder. You maintain that faster pace by running more. Right now, you want to keep what you've got so you can build the next stair on top of it.
2010-11-23 1:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
Scout7 - 2010-11-23 11:20 AM
jsiegs - 2010-11-23 11:10 AM
Scout7 - 2010-11-23 10:48 AM
jsiegs - 2010-11-23 10:35 AM Thanks all.  Really good advice.  I think I'll start getting at least an 8-10 miler in each week until next year.  Then I'll think about extending that run a bit for HIM build in June.  Another reason I'm avoiding the long run is perspective I got from Skiba's book on training with power (don't quote me on this, but it's the jist I got) - basically, if I do two 6 mile runs faster than one 12 mile run, the physiological benefit will be higher, and the toll will be the same or less.  I have no need to run miles 10-15 for a race anytime soon, so I can wait to get those miles starting about 4 months out of my race (and with the amount of miles I'm running, I don't think I'll have any problems starting right up with the longer runs).  So I guess my compromise is to run miles 8-10 starting now, which I can safely run at a good pace without ruining the next day's run/other workouts.
I disagree with the idea that two 6 mile runs at a harder effort is functionally equivalent to one 12 mile run at a lower effort level. Apples and oranges, with two different purposes to each. I also see no reason NOT to run 10-15 mile runs in the off season, or at least to not consider running them. Not every week, but to exclude them completely (assuming you have the time to do them), then why not do them? If the reason is that you take too long to recover from those runs, run them at an easier effort level. I think you're better off doing 10-15 mile runs at a lower effort now, than 8-10 at a higher effort.


Totally agree on apples to oranges.  I guess I break it down into "getting faster" and "endourance" in my "not an expert at all" judgement.  I'm trying to "get faster" now.  So two faster 6 mile runs do better for me than one slower 12 mile run, with same or less cost.  In what I've read/heard ect, I've come to the understanding that long runs won't make your critical pace (what Skiba calls your 1 hour max pace or about 10k pace) faster, but will let you run closer to your CP for longer than 1 hour runs.  I'm not saying running more miles won't make your CP lower, but specifically doing 10-15 as a long run as part of your weekly miles won't.  Improve CP now, improve endourance closer to the race...that seems to be the strategy I've heard a lot and what I'm trying to do.

Does that make sense?  We may be at a crossroads in philosophy however.
I guess I'm not viewing this as an either/or scenario. You do both. You run those 6 miles at a harder effort, and you run longer runs. Each works a different aspect of your fitness, and each has a place. I think NOW is the time to improve your endurance, specifically because it takes longer and requires more time (to run more miles). What takes more time a 6 mile tempo run, or a 15 mile easy run? Build your volume now, when you don't have a race looming. Keep some harder efforts, but focus on running a whole lot of easy stuff more than worrying about getting "faster". You build steps. You get a faster pace by running harder. You maintain that faster pace by running more. Right now, you want to keep what you've got so you can build the next stair on top of it.


Yes, it isn't an total either/or, but it's a focus.  I can focus on running a bit harder and not worry about the cost of the long run (e.g. maybe only easy running the day before/after) or I can focus on getting a long run in and not worry that some of my other runs will be easier than they could have been otherwise.  I am hesitent to do both, based on what I've heard about injuries.  So I agree with your statement about steps - though our disconnect now may be the order.  My impression was that it would be best to build milage (build miles per week), build speed (increase pace/intervals/tempo, w/e is good for your goal distance/personal abilities, and keep mpw same or lower), build endourance (keep 1 and 2 (but less), and"go long" once a week).  I think you're suggesting you start with the third part though?  Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions, btw.

Edited by jsiegs 2010-11-23 1:27 PM
2010-11-23 1:41 PM
in reply to: #3223565

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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
Well, going long builds endurance and miles, so I don't think that's necessarily out of tune with anything.

When I say "easy", I don't mean recovery effort. I mean running at an effort that leaves you tired, but not so beat up you are compromising the next workout. Which I think is how you've been doing your longer runs. You're making those 8-10 mile runs a higher effort than they need to be. If you backed off a little bit, you could probably get through 12 without it beating you up so much that it affects the next day or the day after.

Right now, I'd say you should focus on miles, most of them at an easy effort. Occasional harder efforts. The lots of miles gets your body ready for harder running later.

This might explain it better: Linky


2010-11-23 1:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
In a sense, it is either/or.  Our bodies can not handle endless miles, so the time that you spend on/recovering from the long run can instead be spent on a hard tempo run, hills, pickups, etc.  There is no real need for long runs (if you are training for HIM) until 12-16 weeks prior to your first race in 2011.

I am doing the exact same thing that your are.  I'm running 6 x week and focusing on tempo and hills.  I see no need to spend time recovering or doing a long run when I can substitute a hill/tempo run instead. 

Current schedule:
3e - 6tempo - 3e - 6tempo -3e - 8hills - 0
Around the first of March I will drop the 8 mile hills and do a 9 miler.  From there I plan to increase the long run 1 mile each week until I hit 15 miles 6 weeks prior to my first race.  During the last 6 weeks I will alternate the 15 mile run e/o/wk with a 8-10 mile hill run.  That gives me 3 - 15 milers, the last one being 2 weeks prior to the race.

Edited by bhc 2010-11-23 1:52 PM
2010-11-23 1:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
bhc - 2010-11-23 2:50 PM

In a sense, it is either/or.  Our bodies can not handle endless miles, so the time that you spend on/recovering from the long run can instead be spent on a hard tempo run, hills, pickups, etc.  There is no real need for long runs (if you are training for HIM) until 12-16 weeks prior to your first race in 2011.

I am doing the exact same thing that your are.  I'm running 6 x week and focusing on tempo and hills.  I see no need to spend time recovering or doing a long run when I can substitute a tempo run instead. 

Current schedule:
3e - 6tempo - 3e - 6tempo -3e - 8hills - 0
Around the first of March I will drop the 8 mile hills and do a 9 miler.  From there I plan to increase the long run 1 mile each week until I hit 15 miles 6 weeks prior to my first race.  During the last 6 weeks I will alternate the 15 mile run e/o/wk with a 8-10 mile hill run.  That gives me 3 - 15 milers, the last one being 2 weeks prior to the race.


You still need to recover from tempo runs, same as you would anything else. In fact, the recovery may be more for a tempo run, especially if you cross over the line to a little too hard.

I still don't see what's wrong with doing a tempo run mid-week, and a 12-5 miler on the weekend....

ETA: Could you define "tempo run", as you use it? Because that may be a difference in terminology, too.

Edited by Scout7 2010-11-23 1:53 PM
2010-11-23 1:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
Scout

Not saying that there is anything wrong with it.  I'm just focusing on speed in the "off-season".

No wrong or right...1 tempo + 1 long is great but another approach of 2 tempo + 1 hill IMO will help me increase my speed.  I will worry about endurance at the start of the season (March for me)
2010-11-23 1:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
bhc - 2010-11-23 2:56 PM

Scout

Not saying that there is anything wrong with it.  I'm just focusing on speed in the "off-season".

No wrong or right...1 tempo + 1 long is great but another approach of 2 tempo + 1 hill IMO will help me increase my speed.  I will worry about endurance at the start of the season (March for me)


See, this is the difference.

In my experience, the endurance takes longer to develop, whereas the speed comes quicker. Also, the endurance lasts longer, and the speed is lost quicker. That's why most of the running plans I've seen do lots of miles early on, and don't do intervals until the last few months building up.

However, what you're talking about doing isn't really different than what I would do, except that I would do 1 tempo OR hill workout (alternating each week) and the long run right now.
2010-11-23 1:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
Scout7 - 2010-11-23 2:52 PM
bhc - 2010-11-23 2:50 PM In a sense, it is either/or.  Our bodies can not handle endless miles, so the time that you spend on/recovering from the long run can instead be spent on a hard tempo run, hills, pickups, etc.  There is no real need for long runs (if you are training for HIM) until 12-16 weeks prior to your first race in 2011.

I am doing the exact same thing that your are.  I'm running 6 x week and focusing on tempo and hills.  I see no need to spend time recovering or doing a long run when I can substitute a tempo run instead. 

Current schedule:
3e - 6tempo - 3e - 6tempo -3e - 8hills - 0
Around the first of March I will drop the 8 mile hills and do a 9 miler.  From there I plan to increase the long run 1 mile each week until I hit 15 miles 6 weeks prior to my first race.  During the last 6 weeks I will alternate the 15 mile run e/o/wk with a 8-10 mile hill run.  That gives me 3 - 15 milers, the last one being 2 weeks prior to the race.
You still need to recover from tempo runs, same as you would anything else. In fact, the recovery may be more for a tempo run, especially if you cross over the line to a little too hard. I still don't see what's wrong with doing a tempo run mid-week, and a 12-5 miler on the weekend.... ETA: Could you define "tempo run", as you use it? Because that may be a difference in terminology, too.


I do 1 of my 6 mile tempos as: 2e - 2race pace - 2e.  The other I do 1e - 2rp - 1e - 2rp.

Race pace is my 5k time, NOT my half time.


2010-11-23 2:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
Scout7 - 2010-11-23 2:59 PM
bhc - 2010-11-23 2:56 PM Scout

Not saying that there is anything wrong with it.  I'm just focusing on speed in the "off-season".

No wrong or right...1 tempo + 1 long is great but another approach of 2 tempo + 1 hill IMO will help me increase my speed.  I will worry about endurance at the start of the season (March for me)
See, this is the difference. In my experience, the endurance takes longer to develop, whereas the speed comes quicker. Also, the endurance lasts longer, and the speed is lost quicker. That's why most of the running plans I've seen do lots of miles early on, and don't do intervals until the last few months building up. However, what you're talking about doing isn't really different than what I would do, except that I would do 1 tempo OR hill workout (alternating each week) and the long run right now.


That's interesting.  I find that once I get into good shape, increasing my endurance is not that hard...it just takes time to build.  I find it VERY difficult to get my times down, but I'm 59, so that has a lot to do with it.
2010-11-23 2:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
bhc - 2010-11-23 2:59 PM

I do 1 of my 6 mile tempos as: 2e - 2race pace - 2e.  The other I do 1e - 2rp - 1e - 2rp.

Race pace is my 5k time, NOT my half time.


Ah. Yeah, that's not what I would call a tempo run at all, that's what I would call intervals.
2010-11-23 2:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
I'm going to agree with Scout here, probably because most of what I've learned about running is from or through him... It's more time consuming to build endurance than speed. In the off season, you'll do better to train endurance with less speed work. Speed work can be done more in the month or two leading up to the race so that you can reach your peak as the race approaches. This doesn't rule out speed work completely, but if I had an off season I'd work on my endurance with longer runs and do less speed work.
2010-11-23 2:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
bhc - 2010-11-23 3:02 PM

Scout7 - 2010-11-23 2:59 PM
bhc - 2010-11-23 2:56 PM Scout

Not saying that there is anything wrong with it.  I'm just focusing on speed in the "off-season".

No wrong or right...1 tempo + 1 long is great but another approach of 2 tempo + 1 hill IMO will help me increase my speed.  I will worry about endurance at the start of the season (March for me)
See, this is the difference. In my experience, the endurance takes longer to develop, whereas the speed comes quicker. Also, the endurance lasts longer, and the speed is lost quicker. That's why most of the running plans I've seen do lots of miles early on, and don't do intervals until the last few months building up. However, what you're talking about doing isn't really different than what I would do, except that I would do 1 tempo OR hill workout (alternating each week) and the long run right now.


That's interesting.  I find that once I get into good shape, increasing my endurance is not that hard...it just takes time to build.  I find it VERY difficult to get my times down, but I'm 59, so that has a lot to do with it.


May be hard to get them down because you give up some of your base.

Endurance is easy to get back to your last point, but takes a lot more time to move to the next level.
2010-11-23 2:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
MonkeyClaw - 2010-11-23 3:03 PM I'm going to agree with Scout here, probably because most of what I've learned about running is from or through him... It's more time consuming to build endurance than speed. In the off season, you'll do better to train endurance with less speed work. Speed work can be done more in the month or two leading up to the race so that you can reach your peak as the race approaches. This doesn't rule out speed work completely, but if I had an off season I'd work on my endurance with longer runs and do less speed work.


That raises an interesting question: If you have good endurance at the end of the season, should you continue to work on endurance or focus on speed work knowing that within 4-6 weeks you can have your long run back to the season's high.

I'll let you guys figure that out.  I'm leaving for the mountains for some real hill work over the holiday.  Happy Thanksgiving!!!


2010-11-23 2:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
bhc - 2010-11-23 3:11 PM

MonkeyClaw - 2010-11-23 3:03 PM I'm going to agree with Scout here, probably because most of what I've learned about running is from or through him... It's more time consuming to build endurance than speed. In the off season, you'll do better to train endurance with less speed work. Speed work can be done more in the month or two leading up to the race so that you can reach your peak as the race approaches. This doesn't rule out speed work completely, but if I had an off season I'd work on my endurance with longer runs and do less speed work.


That raises an interesting question: If you have good endurance at the end of the season, should you continue to work on endurance or focus on speed work knowing that within 4-6 weeks you can have your long run back to the season's high.

I'll let you guys figure that out.  I'm leaving for the mountains for some real hill work over the holiday.  Happy Thanksgiving!!!


I'd build the endurance, AND the speed.

Lots of running, with some tempo stuff mixed in the whole time. Then you get both.
2010-11-23 3:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
Scout7 - 2010-11-23 1:12 PM

bhc - 2010-11-23 3:11 PM

MonkeyClaw - 2010-11-23 3:03 PM I'm going to agree with Scout here, probably because most of what I've learned about running is from or through him... It's more time consuming to build endurance than speed. In the off season, you'll do better to train endurance with less speed work. Speed work can be done more in the month or two leading up to the race so that you can reach your peak as the race approaches. This doesn't rule out speed work completely, but if I had an off season I'd work on my endurance with longer runs and do less speed work.


That raises an interesting question: If you have good endurance at the end of the season, should you continue to work on endurance or focus on speed work knowing that within 4-6 weeks you can have your long run back to the season's high.

I'll let you guys figure that out. I'm leaving for the mountains for some real hill work over the holiday. Happy Thanksgiving!!!


I'd build the endurance, AND the speed.

Lots of running, with some tempo stuff mixed in the whole time. Then you get both.


i think part of the issue here is two fold, one, people tend to not grasp that running more allows you to run faster, you dont just run a lot of miles, and then get faster only with the speedwork, and two, i think there is a lot of misunderstanding about what ech person means by endurance, it seems like some are using it to define how long they can run, others by the ability to maintain a speed for a given distance.


back to the OP, i actually just dug back through my paper logs from last winter, and i di have a longer run 10-14 miles every week on a base of 45-55 miles a week, 5 times from jan to march i went over 14 miles, and from jan on the weekly long run was never shorter than 12.

the goal with that was simply to get my run times down, from 5k up through 13mi. (would not have changed it even if it was only 5k and 10k).

those longer runs over the winter were a great time to start to deal with what it felt like to run faster for a long time (i did a lot of my tempo work in the longer run, or did it as a progression run).
2010-11-24 8:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
I agree wholeheartedly that extending your long run will be beneficial for making you faster, even in short distances.  I also agree that keeping a long run year-round will help, as well as one tempo or marathon pace slightly longer run (not intervals) year round.  I'd keep them in that order of priority too, even for races as short as a 5K.  Of course the first priority is just keeping high volume in general (achieved through consistency).  As has been mentioned, adding speed workouts to a block leading up to your taper will get you some speed relatively quickly... especially if you have a solid base. 
2010-11-24 9:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Long run during maintenance and other running questions
JoshKaptur - 2010-11-24 7:32 AM

I agree wholeheartedly that extending your long run will be beneficial for making you faster, even in short distances. I also agree that keeping a long run year-round will help, as well as one tempo or marathon pace slightly longer run (not intervals) year round. I'd keep them in that order of priority too, even for races as short as a 5K. Of course the first priority is just keeping high volume in general (achieved through consistency). As has been mentioned, adding speed workouts to a block leading up to your taper will get you some speed relatively quickly... especially if you have a solid base.



i think that last part is something that is WAY to often overlooked. That gain you see from speedwork is most useful AFTER you have the miles there to really complete it well and have it do any noticeable good.
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