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2010-12-21 11:55 AM

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Subject: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?

Like many of you, I have a busy schedule away from training so I find it hard to believe that I could overtrain, or maybe I need to adjust training

I have been concentrating on my swim (I am still  running and biking) for the last 2 months and fortunately I have gone from barely able to swim 100m to swimming 1mile to 1.2 miles nonstop in a pool.......however recently I find it very difficult to get past that distance....I do not want to sound like I am complaining but I want to do a olympic and HIM next year and feel I should be able to swim at least 1.5-1.75 in a pool to be comfortable with both swims

I have to admit that my pool workout may not be very traditional compared to what i am reading in "The beginner Triathlete"...but since I am several months away I have just been concentrating on volume.......I swim 2 times a week (sometimes 3), I may do a brief 50-100 m warm up...then I just swim until I am essentially tired, bored, or just running out of time, but it always seems to be around 37-42 laps...Over the last 4 workouts I cant seem to get past that.  Its as if I hit a plateau or something.

What suggestions do you have in my swim workout to get past this?  even though I am more than 16/20/24 weeks away from any race, which seems to be the average training plan, should I be doing more sprint work? and forgoing the long swims on some days?

Thanks...sorry for long post



2010-12-21 11:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
Are you eating a high energy snack an hour or so before? You may be out of fuel.

And mixing it up with an interval day etc. will help ward off 'black line fever.'

Zanne.



Edited by LittleCat 2010-12-21 11:59 AM
2010-12-21 12:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
i usually eat a power bar or something like that with water an hour before....in my experience I find if I eat too close I feel like Im burping constantly in the pool.....I may need to try gels/blocks closer to my workout, maybe I will stomach it better....thanks
2010-12-21 12:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?

It has nothing to do with overtrianing.  Nothing to do with an "energy" snack.

You should probably start swimming sets.  Find some swim workouts (you will be hard pressed to find any that say warm-up for 2-3 laps and then swim until you are bored and get out).  Do a real warm-up and then do some swimming that makes you work hard.

2x/week is relatively little.  If you really want to focus on your swim, shoot for 3, 4 or more.  If 2x is what you can do, try to get "more" out of your swims by working harder during them.

2010-12-21 12:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
JohnnyKay - 2010-12-21 2:05 PM

It has nothing to do with overtrianing.  Nothing to do with an "energy" snack.

You should probably start swimming sets.  Find some swim workouts (you will be hard pressed to find any that say warm-up for 2-3 laps and then swim until you are bored and get out).  Do a real warm-up and then do some swimming that makes you work hard.

2x/week is relatively little.  If you really want to focus on your swim, shoot for 3, 4 or more.  If 2x is what you can do, try to get "more" out of your swims by working harder during them.



x2

Shane

2010-12-21 12:12 PM
in reply to: #3256347

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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
JohnnyKay - 2010-12-21 1:05 PM

It has nothing to do with overtrianing.  Nothing to do with an "energy" snack.

You should probably start swimming sets.  Find some swim workouts (you will be hard pressed to find any that say warm-up for 2-3 laps and then swim until you are bored and get out).  Do a real warm-up and then do some swimming that makes you work hard.

2x/week is relatively little.  If you really want to focus on your swim, shoot for 3, 4 or more.  If 2x is what you can do, try to get "more" out of your swims by working harder during them.




Thanks for the laugh!!!  (you will be hard pressed.........).....very true!  Hate to admit it, but It pretty much summarized my pool workouts......I guess I am pleased to be able to swim that distance, but I need to work harder with sets...thanks


2010-12-21 12:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
FELTGood - 2010-12-21 1:12 PM
JohnnyKay - 2010-12-21 1:05 PM

It has nothing to do with overtrianing.  Nothing to do with an "energy" snack.

You should probably start swimming sets.  Find some swim workouts (you will be hard pressed to find any that say warm-up for 2-3 laps and then swim until you are bored and get out).  Do a real warm-up and then do some swimming that makes you work hard.

2x/week is relatively little.  If you really want to focus on your swim, shoot for 3, 4 or more.  If 2x is what you can do, try to get "more" out of your swims by working harder during them.




Thanks for the laugh!!!  (you will be hard pressed.........).....very true!  Hate to admit it, but It pretty much summarized my pool workouts......I guess I am pleased to be able to swim that distance, but I need to work harder with sets...thanks


While I am the last person to give swim advice, smarter people here have recommended www.swimplan.com to get some free workouts.  You only get the "upgraded" version for the first 14 days, so try to get one each day and save it if you can.
 
2010-12-21 12:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
As others have said, a lack in progress isn't the result of overtraining, but the result of poor training.  Is there a masters class you could join?
2010-12-21 12:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?

your log is empty so its hard to comment.  3 x 1500 yrds is 4500 per week or about 18000 yrds per month not likely on that volume. 

but man swimming 1500 yrds at once would bore the living hell out of me.  i would rather have someone shoot me.  workouts should have a purpose.  even when i started i never swam the entire distance.  there is time and place for this....for example open water swims when you go for 30+ min....maybe once every two weeks or so if you have access.

personally i rarely swim more then 500 yrd set and you will find that true for all the fast swimmers be it on BT or any other site. 

2010-12-21 12:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
trix - 2010-12-21 1:31 PM

your log is empty so its hard to comment.  3 x 1500 yrds is 4500 per week or about 18000 yrds per month not likely on that volume. 

but man swimming 1500 yrds at once would bore the living hell out of me.  i would rather have someone shoot me.  workouts should have a purpose.  even when i started i never swam the entire distance.  there is time and place for this....for example open water swims when you go for 30+ min....maybe once every two weeks or so if you have access.

personally i rarely swim more then 500 yrd set and you will find that true for all the fast swimmers be it on BT or any other site. 



guess thats the problem, boring as hell!......

thanks for all of the advice.....I will get my A$$ moving faster/harder with shorter distance sets, that I will get from trusted Triathlon swim sources......as I led with my post , i did not think I was overtraining, but knew something was not right
2010-12-21 1:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
You will improve greatly with swimming sets, especially drills. I was like you before. I would just keep swimming longer and longer distances. Swimming sets not only relieves boredom, but they let you focus on technique and give you a tougher workout. You will be come a much better swimmer, much faster, even with only two days to swim out of the week. 

Also I wouldn't worry about burping in the pool. In one of my coached swims I couldn't stop farting. I don't know if it was something I ate, but expect the unexpected.


2010-12-22 9:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
I am by no means a fast swimmer but it appears we had a somewhat similar experience. Started swimming in April barely able to do one lap. Kept working at it until I was able to do 1500m straight. Got bored. Looked around on the internet and discovered swimplan etc. Started doing intervals, mostly 10x100. Before I'd do them with 30 sec rest in between reps, then leaving on 2:00, then on 1:55, now on 1:50. So, I am seeing improvement. I also do 500m sets just to make sure I can go the longer distance. Recently, I've added 5x200 in my workouts. I have no worries about doing >1k, it just gets tremendously boring. My workout tomorrow looks like this:

- 1000m of warmup and drills (catch up, zipper/fingertip drag, paddles, focus on entry and a good catch, bilateral, sighting, etc.)
- 5x200 @ 3:45
- 10 x 100 @ 1:50
- 5 x 50 all out w/ 30 sec rest
- 500m of drills incl 100m (or however much I can do) of kick.

I'm only able to go 2x/week. I'd like to increase that to 3x or possibly add more mileage per workout.

2010-12-22 10:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
Ok, so while everybody is chiming in, can somebody explain why swimming training recommendations look so different from received wisdom on running & biking? 

I get it that technique is crucial in swimming, and that you don't need to worry about impact injuries as much as you do for running. But from the perspective of conditioning along, not technique development, why do swim sets look so different than bike sets? You'd hardly ever see anybody recommend 10 x 2 mins intervals with :15 rest on the bike, and people scoff at the notion of 20-minute efforts in the pool, which are bread-and-butter workouts for biking. 

I've seen people say that "swimming is just different", but that doesn't really cut it as an answer. 

When working with standard swim sets that include short (:10 - :30) rests, which barely counts as an interruption from a cardio standpoint, is it more appropriate to think of the duration of the whole set as equivalent to a bike interval, i.e., 10 x 100 on 2:00 would be training the same systems as a 20 minute L4 interval on the bike? Are the short intervals mainly serving to focus on maintaining even pace and form throughout a longer period. Or is there some way that higher intensity efforts with very short rests trains systems that are essential for swimming but not for biking? Boredom/counting aside, why wouldn't 20-minute swim intervals, with an effort to maintain good form when fatigued, have the same benefits that they have on the bike?
2010-12-22 11:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
colinphillips - 2010-12-22 12:05 PM

When working with standard swim sets that include short (:10 - :30) rests, which barely counts as an interruption from a cardio standpoint, is it more appropriate to think of the duration of the whole set as equivalent to a bike interval, i.e., 10 x 100 on 2:00 would be training the same systems as a 20 minute L4 interval on the bike? Are the short intervals mainly serving to focus on maintaining even pace and form throughout a longer period. Or is there some way that higher intensity efforts with very short rests trains systems that are essential for swimming but not for biking? Boredom/counting aside, why wouldn't 20-minute swim intervals, with an effort to maintain good form when fatigued, have the same benefits that they have on the bike?


You've essentially hit the nail on the head in terms of the training benefit and proper rest intervals.  By breaking up a workout into smaller chunks, then it is easier to keep track of the distance (less likely to miss a lap doing 15x100 than 1500 straight), gives a short rest which can help maintain pacing and good technique and gives a small break from staring at the black line.

By manipulating the work and rest intervals, it is possible to target different aspects of swim fitness and as you've indicated, short rest doesn't matter much to the body so it is essentially the same as continuous swimming.

Shane
2010-12-22 12:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
colinphillips - 2010-12-22 9:05 AM

Ok, so while everybody is chiming in, can somebody explain why swimming training recommendations look so different from received wisdom on running & biking? 

I get it that technique is crucial in swimming, and that you don't need to worry about impact injuries as much as you do for running. But from the perspective of conditioning along, not technique development, why do swim sets look so different than bike sets? You'd hardly ever see anybody recommend 10 x 2 mins intervals with :15 rest on the bike, and people scoff at the notion of 20-minute efforts in the pool, which are bread-and-butter workouts for biking. 

I've seen people say that "swimming is just different", but that doesn't really cut it as an answer. 

When working with standard swim sets that include short (:10 - :30) rests, which barely counts as an interruption from a cardio standpoint, is it more appropriate to think of the duration of the whole set as equivalent to a bike interval, i.e., 10 x 100 on 2:00 would be training the same systems as a 20 minute L4 interval on the bike? Are the short intervals mainly serving to focus on maintaining even pace and form throughout a longer period. Or is there some way that higher intensity efforts with very short rests trains systems that are essential for swimming but not for biking? Boredom/counting aside, why wouldn't 20-minute swim intervals, with an effort to maintain good form when fatigued, have the same benefits that they have on the bike?


In swimming, you can never really set aside the concept of technique development. When swimming longer sets EVERYONE SLOWS DOWN. if your workout set is 20 minutes continuous swim, you need some other metric besides time alone to help measure if you are still meeting the objective of holding good form and technique.

In my mind there is nothing wrong with a 20 minute swim, but most coaches & plans do not provide a practical way to keep track of swim technique.

For example, if you can swim a 100 yard in 1:45 and do that in 64 strokes, then an endurance set at that same pace could involve swimming 500 yards, maintaining strokes @ an average of 16/spl and take splits every 100 yards. if you are holding 16 strokes, but your 100 splits are slowing, then that 500 yard set can reveal to you a lot of information about how to improve your swimming. If you CAN hold 16 SPL and your 100 yard splits remain at your goal pace, then it's time to increase the challenge...swim further, swim faster, or swim more efficiently (use fewer strokes for example) and repeat the process.

But how often do you see workouts described like that?

it's far easier to keep track of shorter sets, but the same thing applies there...say you are doing 100 yard hard efforts "race pace" in 1:30. What's your form doing the last 25 vs. the first 25? are you taking 15 strokes the first 25 and taking 19 strokes the last 15 but still making it in 1:30? if you are not tracking some other metric in addition to time & distance you are losing a lot of valuable information that you could be using to create outstanding swim sets whether they are 100s or 1000s.

2010-12-22 12:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
To answer on a more physiologic level, there is far less correlation in swimming with lactate threshold/Vo2 max as being a performance predictor. Various studies have looked at things like Olympic finalists vs. non-finalists and found that the finalists actutally produce less power than non-finalists. with better technqiue, less power is needed.

Another study I love looked at swimmers vs. triathletes...the swimmers were faster, but hte triathletes produced more power underwater. Again, technique trumps power

Yet other studies have looked at absolute lactate levels after hard intervals...better swimmers had lower lactate levels.

Swimming is "just different".

With biking, you are essentially "locked in" to a position and it IS almost all about power, threshold, VO2 max and weight.

Naturally given that understanding, training for swimming will look different than training for cycling.


2010-12-22 4:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
Boring as hell might be the problem.  Seems similar to a lifting plateau where you need some different exercise or routine (in this case) to break through it.
2010-12-22 9:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
AdventureBear - 2010-12-22 1:36 PM  Swimming is "just different".


Thanks, guys. This is helpful. But I want to push further.

It is certainly clear that V02max/LT is little use in swimming in the absence of good technique, just as they don't help you much in TT biking if you ride sitting up. But the fact remains, I presume, that if technique is held constant then increases in V02max or LT should improve performance. And it's also clear that it's essential to devote a lot of attention to technique development in swimming, and also to train good technique when fatigued.

So you need to train (i) great technique, (ii) great technique when tired, (iii) cardiovascular limiters such as V02max and LT. This is similar to training for TT biking, except that (i) and (ii) in the case of biking, i.e., maintaining a good aero position, are a bit more straightforward, whereas (i) and (ii) are a huge deal for swimming. Swimming events do tend to take up less time than the bike portion of a triathlon, but since the swim is just the first part of a much longer event, I presume that LT is a more important limiter than V02max, just as in cycling.

But even if swimming is a bit different, does it immediately follow that the best way to train (ii) and (iii) is through sets of short repetitions with very brief rest periods? There are practical limiters, such as gsmacleod and AB point out -- boredom, counting laps, keeping track of splits, SPL, etc. These were probably a huge constraint when we had fewer tech toys to help us out, and they certain affect the way that one would train a large group of distracted kids -- youth swim teams are a big part of the swim training culture, as is a culture built around pool-deck generals who need to tell you what to do or comment on your form every couple of minutes. But hey -- we're crazy triathletes, and we do dumb things like sitting on bike trainers for hours on end on our own, using various tricks to distract us or to log piles of data. We're nutty enough to simply HTFU and do whatever yields the greatest training effect. And most of us are training on our own without a coach watching over us for most of our swims.

I'm still wondering, then, why the optimal way to develop (ii) and (iii) is via sets with very short rests. Is this how triathlon swim training would be designed if it was being developed from scratch? One could imagine a progression that would start with the standard micro-interval strategy, in order to avoid ingraining bad technique from swimming while tired. But in the longer term wouldn't you want to focus more on longer efforts that don't allow the luxury of resetting the technique after a short break every couple of minutes? You'd want to emphasize technique maintenance while close to LT, surely (in addition to drills, technique work, etc. etc.). But since that's clearly not what advanced swimmers do, there's some step that I'm still missing.  
2010-12-22 10:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
Love your critical approach to the information suggested.

I suggest that you try to get your form developed...priority one.

At the same time, build your endurance and speed with long efforts and shorter interval efforts at managable time goals.  

My appraoch is to always focus on form regardless of what I am swimming.  

A 10 x 50 or 100 or 200 swim set is restricted by a realistic time I set and by the form I can maintain. Once the form is gone, I slow down and try to recover it or cut the set short and rest.  
On a long swim set, which I do ast leat once a week (3000-4000 m ) I focus most every stroke on good form.  I make up a lot of games as well. It's a long haul...but so is sitting on a trainer for 3 minutes.


I swam years with people that grinded through lots of intervals and never really improved their core problems and never got faster.   I focus on less energy for more speed by sliding through the water. Race day is alwasy a grind. But You can better prepare yourself for it.

All this being said, I rarely break 29 min on the half swim.  But this works for me as I really like to ride.

Cheers.
2010-12-23 3:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
@ colinphilips...I'd suggest getting a copy of "The Overachievers Diary". it's a collection of the emails and workouts coach Lou Tharp gave to the Army Triathlon team over the course of a year. It's a practical, day to day description of the work that he did with the team, the whys, the why nots, etc... (the army team was competing in olympic distance events).

Here is an excerpt from a sample chapter entitled, "Another Speed Workout..."
http://www.overachieversdiary.com/sample_p193.shtml
2010-12-23 4:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
@ AdventureBear ... thanks for the book recommendation. I looked at the excerpt (for other readers: it's a book published by the Total Immersion folks, and the excerpt is about the importance of gliding). But the value of technique and the merits of TI principles is not what is at stake here. There's no disputing that technique, glide, balance, etc. etc. are important. But technique is only one (important) part of the equation, which is why we don't just swim drills and very short intervals with full recovery. We also need to train technique under stress and LT (or V02max, though that should be less crucial for triathletes), and where we started with this was an OP who was swimming long continuous swims, and then a bunch of responses that he should be doing standard swim sets, which consist of short efforts and very short rests. Quite unlike our other favorite low impact sport. We have established that there may be practical reasons to take a few seconds to stop to check the clock every so often, to regroup in a team situation, to count if one doesn't have a separate counting tool, etc. But that doesn't explain why micro-intervals are the optimal way to train technique under stress or LT in swimming.

Another possibility might be that it's possible to swim faster with 20 minutes of micro-intervals than with 20 minutes of continuous swimming, and that practice at race pace is more important in swimming than it is in other disciplines of triathlon, because technique might be more pace dependent when swimming.
 


2010-12-23 10:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
colinphillips - 2010-12-23 4:40 AM @ AdventureBear ... thanks for the book recommendation. I looked at the excerpt (for other readers: it's a book published by the Total Immersion folks, and the excerpt is about the importance of gliding). But the value of technique and the merits of TI principles is not what is at stake here. There's no disputing that technique, glide, balance, etc. etc. are important. But technique is only one (important) part of the equation, which is why we don't just swim drills and very short intervals with full recovery. We also need to train technique under stress and LT (or V02max, though that should be less crucial for triathletes), and where we started with this was an OP who was swimming long continuous swims, and then a bunch of responses that he should be doing standard swim sets, which consist of short efforts and very short rests. Quite unlike our other favorite low impact sport. We have established that there may be practical reasons to take a few seconds to stop to check the clock every so often, to regroup in a team situation, to count if one doesn't have a separate counting tool, etc. But that doesn't explain why micro-intervals are the optimal way to train technique under stress or LT in swimming.

Another possibility might be that it's possible to swim faster with 20 minutes of micro-intervals than with 20 minutes of continuous swimming, and that practice at race pace is more important in swimming than it is in other disciplines of triathlon, because technique might be more pace dependent when swimming.
 


I'll jump in and see if I can help. As probably overstated a little on this site, technique is an important piece of swimming. Certainly moreso than biking or running. But, as you have picked up, you still have to get out there and train. (This is a piece many, many triathletes overlook). And the training itself is quite a bit different than the other two sports. In swimming everything is interval work. Warm up through warmdown, every piece of the swim workout is an interval. One of the biggest reasons is pace. If you jump in and swim a1000 in 15 minutes, that means you averaged 1:30 per hundred. The reality though is that you pace was rarely at 1:30. Your first couple of hundred was fresh and with good form and hovered around 1:18-1:20. It slowly degrades to about 1:42 or more around the 700. Then in the last 300 you start upping the effort to get a good time and bring it back into the 1:30 range. So now you think you are a 1:30 swimmer when the reality is that you aren't. Now do 10X100's on the 1:40 and you try to average 1:30 for the set. Your first couple of 100's will seem pretty easy as you and your form are fresh, and with 7-10 seconds rest, your arms/legs are going to be able to recover to point that your form is going to hold up for a longer period of time. As the set wears on the interval gets tougher to make and your stroke doesn't recover as much, but the pace is still within a few seconds of the 1st 100. You still blow it out on the last 100, but that effort doesn't have near the impact b/c you are only changing the result of the last 100, not the time (and therefore avg 100 time) for the entire 1000.  Now do this over and over and over and over and over.
The next time you hop in the pool and swim 1000 straight you have learned pace much better and your splits much more even.

In addition to pace, tight intervals also help form. Like I mentioned above, those few seconds that you spend on the wall is often enough time for your muscles to recover to the point that you can get your proper form back....for a limited time. Those with a running background may dismiss this, but you have to remember that you are in a weightless environment and lying down. So if you do a 100 close to threshold, a 6 second rest on the wall gives you 13 beats of the heart (assuming a 130 hr) to flush out the gunk. So as your stroke starts to fall apart, you are given a quick rest so that when you push off for the next 100 your form is sharp again (although briefly). Compare that to a straight 1000 where your form blows up and never recovers. I'm a pretty good swimmer and even I have these challenges. If I do a 1000, my first 100 may be around 1:01 or 1:02, but my 6th or 7th hundred may be more like 1:08 or 1:09. The average still looks good, but the truth is that the pace wasn't. Now take a workout I did on 10/25. I did repeat hundreds that allowed me about 7 seconds rest on each. That short rest allowed me to hold my form together better and dial in my pace to a 1:03 for the duration.

The other reason for the tight intervals in swimming is because we can. Because of the zero impact and fast recovery times, swimmers are able to hammer longer with fewer ill effects. If you tried running 12X200's on the track with 15 seconds rest and did that 4 days in a row you would be absolute toast. But in the pool it's commonplace because you're recovered and ready to go by the afternoon.

There are other practical reasons, such as the number of people in a lane, diversity of ability in a lane, etc but that's secondary. Hope that helps some.
2010-12-23 10:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
My point was not about the merits of gliding. My point was that itsa day to day description of what the swim coach fora national collegiate program did with his workouts. Lou tharp is an excellent coach and you may learn some stuff from his book about how he created his sets. Which basically what you are asking someone here to explain. The why.

I provided the except so that you could read his writing style. If you are willing to ask a forum if strangers on the inter webs, if think you would enjoy a published book about it from someone with real credentials even more.

Lou doesn't follow any one else's rules. So its a very interesting book.
Doers anyone know of any other published books detailing the day to day training of distance swimmers includingemail correspondence with the athletes? I would live to read every book published on the topic.

I'm not supporting or criticizing your questions, simply trying to provide a resource.
2010-12-23 10:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
Warning, this may get long. Dear reader, if you read to the end of this, then you're clearly not spending enough time with your family over the holidays.

First, I owe AdventureBear an apology for my snippy reaction to her helpful reading suggestion. Packing up the family at 5am for a cross-country drive ("...over the river and through the woods, to grandma's house we go ...") got the better of me. And I shouldn't have dismissed Lou Tharp so quickly, without knowing more of his book. (I'm afraid his talk of fishlike swimming pushed the wrong rhetorical buttons for me.) I appreciate the input, and TJ's posting is very helpful, too. 

I might add that I didn't intend to just throw this question out to 'random' folks on the internet. I've noticed that some of the most thoughtful commentators can be found on BT, and  Suzanne and TJ are among the best. I'm definitely a novice swimmer myself, and so I have a million things to work on. But as somebody with a background in running coaching, and a dabbler in the history of training philosophies, and having read a fair amount about the physiology of cycling, I have been struck by which aspects of swim training that seem to be discussed to  greater or lesser degrees in  articles and books. It is relatively easy to find details on the whys and wherefores of  good technique, and loads of great drill advice, and it's also easy enough to find coaches extolling the creativity of their favorite sets. But I've had limited success in searching for good information on the physiologic rationale for the kinds of training that  dominate the sport. This is different than cycling, where such discussions are easy to find. I have found cases of questions like this posed to swim coaches, and the typical response amounts to "trust me, that's just how swimming is". One thing that makes this all the more interesting (to me) is that as triathletes we're often trying to pick out the best insights from individual sport training and convert them into plans that allow us to train for all 3 sports while also being middle-aged folks with real jobs, families, etc.

At the risk of becoming far too long-winded, here's an attempt to distill  the wisdom from the responses so far, leading to a revised version of my question. (One benefit of a 12-hour drive on some very boring interstates is that there's ample time to reflect on these things.)

I take it as a starting point that in any of our sports one wants to identify the key physiologic limiters and then then train as much as possible at the thresholds where those limiters hurt performance. The goal is always to gradually raise the thresholds. I think that the error of my earlier queries was to assume that in swim sets we're trying to train the same thresholds that we're focused on in the other sports, e.g., lactate threshold (LT). The relevant threshold in swimming may be quite different, as AB and TJ both point out. They may also have an entirely different physiological basis. 

In swimming one certainly needs both good technique and good conditioning, but the impact of loss of form on performance is more dramatic than in cycling or running. In cycling the primary limiter is the ability to sustain high power, i.e., the ability to efficiently clear blood lactate while using high amounts of oxygen to release energy. But in swimming it seems that the main limiter is the ability to sustain good form, i.e., a complex set of muscle contractions that must be precisely coordinated in their timing and their relative intensity. This ability can decline rapidly under stress, and so a key goal of training is to improve the level of physiologic stress at which good form can be maintained. This could be called the 'form threshold' (FT), or maybe there's already a much better name for it. I don't know what factors push the body over this threshold, but there are probably a lot of different factors, and it seems rather more complicated than LT. It makes sense that we should then want to devote a lot of swim training to raising the FT. And TJ's post highlights that short intervals can do this. He also notes that whatever systems are responsible for FT, they may recover exceedingly quickly. Faster than, say, recovery of blood lactate levels in a cycling FTP workout.

So if this reasoning isn't totally off, and if FT is trained by putting the body at that threshold a lot, just as we train LT and V02max, by putting ourselves close to those thresholds as much as we can tolerate, then this leads to a more focused question about the difference between threshold development in cycling and swimming. 

In swimming the effect of consistently paced intervals with short rests is to swim below FT on the first intervals, and then later in the set to put the body through a rapid cycle of going from below FT to above FT. In the kind of set that TJ describes, this means that the swimmer crosses the threshold many times in a relatively short period. This is reminiscent of the kinds of running interval strategy popularized by  Gerschler and Stampfl in the 1930s-60s: lots of short efforts, short recoveries, most days of the week, and seen in the amazing workouts reported by athletes like Emil Zatopek (100x400m) or Ralph Doubell (50x200m, for an 800m specialist!). You don't hear about running workouts like those nowadays. In cycling, on the other hand, the current dominant strategy is to find out what level corresponds to LT (or V02max, or whatever), and then to hold steady right around that threshold level for quite a long time, e.g., take 3-5 minutes of riding to get to LT, then hold it at the threshold for another 15 minutes or so. Then take 5-10 minutes of rest before repeating. The cyclists reason that this is the best way to accumulate as much time as possible at threshold, and it is similar to currently popular strategies in running. 

If we applied the cycling approach to LT training to developing the FT in swimming, we would find out a pace where  form is on the brink of breaking down, and then we would try to maintain good form at that threshold for as long as possible, gradually raising the threshold over time. But that's clearly not what  swimmers do. They follow the strategy of quickly crossing the threshold, and doing so many times in rapid succession. 

So does anybody know if there's a physiological reason why the form threshold might be better trained via the micro-interval strategy, whereas other thresholds are assumed to be better trained by holding close to threshold for a long period? Or is the primary motivation for the micro-interval strategy all of the other pragmatic things that have been raised, e.g., group work, counting if you don't have a counter, tracking time if you don't have a big clock that you can read while swimming, etc.?
2010-12-24 2:13 AM
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Subject: RE: Is it possible to overtrain one discipline (swim)?
Warning: this may make swimming sound more complicated than some want it to be. that's fine. But for a small handful of you, this will resonate really well, and I think it may for colinphillips. (but maybe not).

colinphillips - 2010-12-23 9:22 PM

If we applied the cycling approach to LT training to developing the FT in swimming, we would find out a pace where  form is on the brink of breaking down, and then we would try to maintain good form at that threshold for as long as possible, gradually raising the threshold over time.


this IS exactly what I do with my own endurance sets, and in my endurance swimming classes that I teach. I identify form threshold by tracking two or more of the following: Strokes per length, tempo, speed. if you are not tracking at least two at the same time, you will not have enough information to base conclusions on.

EG. I can swim a test set of 500 yards in 8 minutes, how can I structure additional practice sets to improve? If you are not measuring either of the other two parameters (tempo or stroke rate), you won't have any better idea, except to try and create sets based of the 100-pace of this swim. That can work, but I don't believe it's the fastest or the smartest way. This test set works out to 1:36/100, I time I'm very happy with. During the set I was counting average strokes per length and it was around 22. My wall pushoff is about the equivalent of 3 strokes, so I can add 22 to 3 to get 25 "strokes" per length. Divide my 100 time (96 seconds) by the "strokes" (100) to get an average tempo of .94 seconds per stroke.

So the question is...did my form falter during the set? Most likely it did since I was very tired at the end of this set...it was a PB for me when I did it 3 weeks or so ago. Form faltering would be evidenced by a slower stroke rate near the end, or taking more strokes per length at the end of the set than at the beginning. I purposely didn't use a tempo trainer or hold myself to specific strokes in this test set, I swam it as fast as I was able to, simulating a race effort.

How can I then use that set to identify a "form threshold" as Colin asked? I can begin doing training sets based on and around the average tempo of that test set. (note that the test set can be anything from 25 yards to 1500 yards or more). I like 500s though because the test is over quickly and it's long enough to get you into some good aerobic effort swimming (if using tradiaitonal physiologic parameters).

Here is an example of some practice sets I could create based on the above test set. If I can easily complete this practice set then I need to stiffen it up a bit by aiming for a lower stroke count or starting at a slightly faster tempo...if I'm unsuccessful at it then I can ease it up a bit. The important part is that the following practice set is based on real parameters of my test set. And will therefore be customized to my current "form threshold" as Colin describes it.

EG. Set the Tempo trainer at .9 seconds per stroke:
Swim 6 x 100 increasing stroke rate by .02 seconds per 100. Goal is to reduce strokes from beginning to end of set (ie..if I take 22 strokes at start of set, take 20-21 strokes by the end of the set at a rate of 1.0 sec/stroke)

Then I reverse the set and go back down the tempo ladder, this time trying to hold the lower stroke rate that I've hopefully achieved. If I'm able to get back down to .9 sec/stroke holding 20 strokes, I'm swimming each 100 nearly 4 seconds faster (saved 4 strokes at .9 seconds per stroke).

**This same set could be structured with time goals rather than the tempo trainer. At a tempo range of .9s to 1s/stroke, the corresponding 100 time if taking 22 strokes per legnth would be 1:30 to 1:40/100. You can therefore do a stroke count ladder or pyramind rather than a tempo ladder or pyramid.

eg. Swim 5 x 100 @ 22SPL, starting at a target pace of 1:40 for first 100 & descending to 1:30. The key here is holding yoru SPL
Round 2: 5 s 100 @ 21 SPL, same descedning times & targets
Round 3: 5 x 100 @ 20 SPL same targets.

This is a far more interesting set to perform than simply taking your 100 pace from the test set and hammering out 1:36/100s over & over again. By teaching your body to manipulate stroke count (and therefor stroke legnth), you will build this movement into your nerumuscular memory to where it is hardwired and you can pull it off in a race.

As a side benefit, the muscle fitness required to sustain the harder effort comes along with it. I don't have to design sets trying to keep "anaerobic thresholds" in mind...it's a natural consequence of designing smart sets based on what you can do in test sets and using smart metrics.

If I'm successful in practice at the above set (dropping 1 stroke from first attempt at .9 sec/stroke to final attempt), I can then design a set where I try to hold that lower stroke count for longer durations...100s repeated, or ladders of 100s, 150s, 200s. If I can shave 1 stroke off each length in a 500 and I've saved 20 seconds more or less off that time for my 500.

To address Colin's question...(paraphrasing) why do swimmers do shorter sets? Because when you create specific goals for short sets you know that you can succesfully build on them for longer sets, rather than just hammering out repeated 500s, 1000s, 1500s, 20 minutes of swimming or whatever. When you know you can hold your parameters for shorter sets based off your tests, build into longer sets making sure you hold parameters (which equates to holding form).

Using these techniques I've dropped my PB in 500m from 9:40 last January to 8:00 last month, and my practice sets (Similar to what I posted above) based on my most recent test continue to be successful. I've got no reason to believe I won't break my PR again the next time I test, getting my 500 time into the 7 something minutes.

I have similar practice sets & focused goals for distances of 25 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards, 500 yards, 1000 yards & 1500 yards. You can see that being a little creative with this can give you infinate varieties of swim practices to keep you entertained. (I never get bored swimming unless I'm unfocused or distracted with 'life')

If you are interested in this style of set design I've got tons more ideas in this light. You can see I don't do traditional hard sets on short intervals. As I said before, I was neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the manner of your questions...but it's a difficult concept to communicate effectively. With your reflections you've posted above and the rephrasing of your questions, I think that some of what I do in my sets may fall in line more with what you are thinking about.


Edited by AdventureBear 2010-12-24 2:29 AM
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