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2005-08-08 2:06 PM

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Buttercup
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Subject: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?

I was so pleased to have reached 50 miles yesterday during my LSR and now a friend of mine who is a cyclist tells me I'm doing it all wrong!

Basically, he said forget about my mileage (he never records his mileage, only time-in-zone, as in HR zones). He suggested a ride (not to exceed 3 hours) that goes something like this (quote):

I probably would do low-intensity intervals. I might do this:

1) 20 minute warm up.
2) 10 minutes at or just above race pace.
3) 15 minutes at Zone-1 to recover.
4) Repeat steps (2) and (3) several times (by several, I mean you might want to do 2 intervals the first time, 3 the following week, 5 the next.)

He also said: ... the resting during a LSR is bad. Very bad. As soon as you start to recover you blow away the long-term taxation on your cardio that is how you build those red blood cells. It is far preferable to *drop* the intensity to a point where you can hold your effort for the entire ride without inducing a recovery event.

Thoughts? I don't want to put in anymore junk miles.



2005-08-08 2:11 PM
in reply to: #219568

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Expert
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
I'm glad you posted this...

You sound much like me.. except i haven't made 50 miles yet..
2005-08-08 2:25 PM
in reply to: #219568

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
Excellent question Renee. Can't offer much advise myself as I'm just upping my mileage like you. So I eagerly await other's respones. I am currently reading, and recommend, Chris Carmichaels' Ultimate Ride ( available at most libraries). He emphasizes periodization in trainig but also addresses particualr training routines. I'll take a closer look and get back.
2005-08-08 2:41 PM
in reply to: #219568

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
Ehhh...I dunno, I don't have an HR monitor or a computer on my bike, I just tend to train in terms of "quality riding", where I FEEL efficient, ride smart, push hard, sweat lots, and cover some miles. I sort of live by the Eddy mantra of "Ride Lots." 
2005-08-08 3:08 PM
in reply to: #219568

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?

His plan sounds essentially sound, particularly for a flat-land cyclist. Around here, the hills take care of the varying intensity.

I also agree that you need to avoid too much resting on LSD rides. They are low-intensity efforts anyway. He's also right that miles per say are really not a telling measure of how much you have ridden. Some miles are easier than others. Time is important, and with a lot of time comes a lot of miles.

2005-08-08 4:12 PM
in reply to: #219568

Master
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
It's all good.......but some is better then others.

He's outlined a very basic, and effective, interval workout. Doing that once a week will boost your bike fitness (speed and endurance). Build that to 2x20 minutes work sessions for a solid workout. The work sessions should be holding just below your LT.

Are those LSR's bad? No, but after early season you should be trying to do those rides at an intensity that's +/- 5 bpm of the bottom of Z2. Those rides should make you tired, but not waste you. Resting, either by frequent stopping or just easy pedaling, reduces the benefits.

scott


2005-08-08 4:13 PM
in reply to: #219648

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
How much is too much resting? He seemed to be saying NO resting at all.
2005-08-08 4:24 PM
in reply to: #219568

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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
how are you resting if you're pedaling? by not pushing hard enough? Intervals are important, but its just one part of your tool kit.

Here's a sample of my program both LSR and Intervals, same week, numerous times:

ME 2 Intervals(muscle endurance) : 2.5 - 3 hours with HR in zones 2 – 3 mostly. For the last 1.5 hours please do 2 x 20 minute intervals at LT – 5 up to LT (Zone 4), with 10 minutes rest between each interval. They should be done on either hills or flats. These should be a solid effort (8.5 -9 on a 10 scale)

Endurance – Moderate Effort Seated: 3 – 4.5 hours on a rolling course with your HR in Zones 2 – 3 mostly. Ride your big chain ring and try to maintain 90 rpm on the flats and ~70rpm on climbs (sm ring, slightly larger gear), but beware that HR may rise as you work the lower rpm. Default to the HR guidelines in this case and shift down

if you are short course specific, I could see intervals only during a serious build phase, but base miles get you to where you can do those types of workouts and reap the benifits.
2005-08-08 4:29 PM
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Resident Curmudgeon
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?

Maybe your guy is assuming you're riding more than the 40MPW or whatever it is you've been averaging. I'm holding the line that a beginning cyclist should first reach a minimum amount of seat time (for which I'm arbitrarily throwing out 100MPW) in order to build strength and endurance, then worry about speed. I'm not necessarily advocating "junk" miles, riding everything at 60% of your heart rate or less, as a matter of fact we have advocated that one or two of those daily rides should be at a "hard-comfortable" pace.

As far as break time, depends on what you're training for. If you're doing HIM races, then certainly you should be taking non-stop 60-70-mile rides. If you're doing sprint races, and want to increase your strength and endurance, or you're training for centuries and other long rides (as opposed to races), then the breaks are not going to hurt you. My typical 70-miler includes three stops, each ~5 minutes, long enough to buy gatorade and refill the camelback, sometimes to empty the other bladder as well.

I confess to not being the most scientific trainer out here, but I know from experience what works for novice cyclists. I have seen significant transformations once riders go from <40 MPW to over 100MPW, huge gains in strength, enfurance, and, most of all, speed. Then, after they've reached and held that type of level, speed work can begin in earnest.



Edited by the bear 2005-08-08 4:31 PM
2005-08-08 4:59 PM
in reply to: #219756

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?

Thank you for your replies.

I guess I was thinking that, as I increase my LSD rides, I don't want those miles to just be lollygagging kind of miles. Make sense?

If I'm supposed to put some specific effort into them I'd rather know now rather than 6 months from now. I haven't worn my HRM in months since it offended me by chafing my boob but if I've got to start wearing it again, I will. But if I just need to build endurance for 50 mile rides then I won't worry about the HRM.

By the way, I found out the trail is an 84 mile circuit; these are traffic free miles. I'd like to build up to ride the entire circuit for fitness and vanity reasons. I can get to this trail only once a week (on weekends).

  • How long do I stay at 50 mile LSD rides?
  • What kind of incremental increases should I make and how frequently should I increase?
2005-08-08 5:03 PM
in reply to: #219789

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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
Why aren't you riding during the week? A single 50-miler on the weekend may not be the best way to train


2005-08-08 5:11 PM
in reply to: #219794

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?

I am riding during the week (except last week - blew it off during my sis' visit). It's my LSD that I do on Sunday. My bike schedule is Tuesday, Friday and Sunday.

I increased my LSD distance to 50 and I'm working towards increasing my weekday distances so that I can reach the magical 100MPW goal.



Edited by Renee 2005-08-08 5:18 PM
2005-08-08 5:31 PM
in reply to: #219568

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Veteran
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
Hi Renee, first, congratulation on going 50!!! What your told you to do may work very well for him, but it may not fit your goals at all. I am an exercise physiologist and top coach (I coach professionals in both triathlon and cycling) and almost every rider goes too hard during long rides and runs. These workouts are targeting your slow twitch, endurance muscle fibers , which don't require high intensity to stimulate them optimally. I'd recommend doing a shorter, harder ride midweek or on the other weekend day, but for your long rides, just get the miles in. If the breaks make it easier for you to go long, take them. There is absolutely no truth to the idea that this reduces the stimulation to your cardiocascular system.

Using time in zone is a perfectly workable way to track training volume, but using mileage works for you, that is just as valid. I'm thinking that you aren't training for the Olympics and nit-picking about minutes vs miles makes no difference. There is nothing incorrect about what you are doing ... and what your friend is doing may be better for him and his goals. Keep up the good work and don't let ANYONE talk you out of being proud about going 50 miles. That makes you 99th percentile. Congratultions again! Ken
2005-08-08 5:50 PM
in reply to: #219803

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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
Renee - 2005-08-08 4:11 PM

I am riding during the week (except last week - blew it off during my sis' visit). It's my LSD that I do on Sunday. My bike schedule is Tuesday, Friday and Sunday.

I increased my LSD distance to 50 and I'm working towards increasing my weekday distances so that I can reach the magical 100MPW goal.

Here's where I'm headed with this: There's a running rule of thumb that says your long run should not make up 50% or more of your total weekly distance. I would recommend the same thing on the bike. Congrats on your 50, now take it down a notch while you up your weekly rides.

Also, try to squeeze a fourth ride in there as well.(W or Th?)

2005-08-08 6:05 PM
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Champion
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
Like both Eddy Merckx and The Bear (Yikes! can I put them both in the same sentence?) say..."Ride Lots!" There is no substitute for a lot of base miles, especially for someone who is just beginning a serious cycling program. There's lots to be said for "seat time." And don't be afraid of the brief "resting periods." Some people think you aren't being intense enough unless you're pedaling down every hill at 250 watts in a 53x12. Those type A's need to scale it back a bit. It might work for Natasha Badmann...but are you Natasha Badmann? I'd rather see you freewheel down a hill than to say %$#@& this in 3 months because you're burned out and disillusioned.

Everything in moderation.

Edited by max 2005-08-08 6:06 PM
2005-08-08 6:06 PM
in reply to: #219829

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
I can't squeeze in a 4th day without sacrificing my swim or run. I swim and run on Mondays, Wednesday and Saturdays. Thursday is rest day. I will up my mileage on weekdays.


2005-08-08 8:48 PM
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Regular
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
CON-FREAKIN-GRADS

i know when i hit 50 i was exstatic. you are on the right track.


They say don't up your LSR for the week by more than 10% of last weeks ride.

Just remember to take it slow.

2005-08-08 9:13 PM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
I did 2.5 hours (about 47 miles) Sunday and one of my goals was to stay aero for the entire ride(OK maybe not intersections and coming out of the saddle a few times but you know what I mean). I was pretty comfortable and didn't suffer any post ride discomfort but towards the end of the ride I had a little neck pain. Is this normal or should I adjust something? Also I kept my HR in check except for the 5 bridges I crossed. Are there specific HR zones I should be striving for or is technique and survivability important at this stage?
BTW Renee where did you find 85 miles of traffic free trails? Is it a rails to trails site?
2005-08-08 9:16 PM
in reply to: #219989

Champion
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
Also, being in Tampa, you may want to take my comment about "hills" with a certain amount of "tongue-in-cheekness"!!
2005-08-09 12:19 AM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?

Hey Renee, I'm nobody's coach but I'm with Bear and Ken on this one.  Intervals are important to do, but those LSD rides are going to give you the endurance.  It's not just about the cardio fitness either, don't forget you are training muscular endurance, toughening up tendons and ligaments, developing callouses on your butt (ha) etc.  And you need all of that BEFORE you begin speed work. Once you can, you NEED to be doing both.

I've never heard the one about taking breaks reducing your gains. You need to be able to ride the distance you are racing without stopping of course, but beyond that I don't see why short breaks would be an issue. 

2005-08-09 12:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
SLOW TWITCH

NUFF SAID


2005-08-09 3:03 AM
in reply to: #219568

Member
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
Nothing will help you more than mileage, and if you want to get faster, ride those miles with faster people.

I don't really think there is such thing as "junk miles", especially if you are doing distances like 50 miles.
2005-08-09 8:38 AM
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Coach
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
I agree with Ken, and with Chris Carmichael. You should pick up a copy of "the ultimate ride", and then you'll have some real ammunition for your friend next time he gives you "junk advice".
2005-08-09 9:09 AM
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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?

gullahcracker - 2005-08-08 9:13 PM BTW Renee where did you find 85 miles of traffic free trails? Is it a rails to trails site?

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/gwt/guide/regions/westcentral/trails/suncoast.htm

Suncoast Trail. It's 41.7 miles long (83.4 circuit). I think I crossed 6 roads from beginning to mile 23, 4 of those road were only double lanes.

2005-08-09 10:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling training: am i doing it all wrong?
Renee - 2005-08-08 3:06 PM

I can't squeeze in a 4th day without sacrificing my swim or run. I swim and run on Mondays, Wednesday and Saturdays. Thursday is rest day. I will up my mileage on weekdays.


perhaps a bit more flexability in your schedule. If you're working on your bike, maybe drop down to 2 swims or runs (whichever is stronger) and work on your bike.
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