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2011-01-22 2:08 AM

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Subject: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
After the Pets of BT thread, I'm just curious who all has Pits or Pit mixes.  It seems like there are quite a few of us BTers who have them.

Here is my Sadie Sue.  Not really sure what she is.  She showed up on my front porch so I will never know for sure, but many have said she looks like she has some pit in her and she is absolutely the best dog I have ever owned.  


Edited by LGraff 2011-01-22 2:12 AM




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2011-01-22 2:16 AM
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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
That face and those ears!!! She's a darling. I agree she's got one of the pit-bull type breeds in her ... with that coloring, face and ears actually maybe bull terrier (think Spuds McKenzie).

Many countries, and now many jurisdictions in the U.S., have outlawed what are called the 'bully' breeds and many more are considering it or already have partial bans. I have mixed feelings about it, but I'm leaning towards "unhappy."
2011-01-22 2:37 AM
in reply to: #3314811

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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
The ears have been what got me from day 1.  I have mixed feelings too about the bully bans.  I know too many people who are responsible dog owners who have rescued mixed breeds that are becoming outlawed that it kind of makes me mad.  In addition to this one I also have a siberian husky and they are on the short list in many places in the states right behind "bullys" and yet they can be such sweet dogs.  But I'm also not trying to start a political debate about should they or shouldn't they be banned.

(This pic is from the day she showed up at my house.  I couldn't turn her away.

Edited by LGraff 2011-01-22 2:40 AM




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2011-01-22 7:48 AM
in reply to: #3314811

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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
She is beautiful.  My friend just adopted a dog from the shelter and was getting ready to be euthanized.  His name is Jobie.  Jobie is about a year old and was very emaciated when he was taken to the shelter.  He is very large boned and the vet thinks he may be part pit-bull/part boxer.  His face and bone structure are very "pit-bull."  Jobie is the sweetest dog ever.  My friend now fosters puppies and kittens, and she had (2) 6 week old kittens and and was worried that Jobie might hurt them.  He followed their every move and would try to "mother" them.  He kept them clean and tried to play with them.  They felt very comfortable around him.  When the kittens were adopted he mourned them.  Tammy had to buy him a stuffed kitten and he carried it around with him constantly.  Now they have adopted a small 1 year old Pom/chihuahua mix and he adores her.  He is shy around strangers, but warms up to them quickly.  I know that there are many irresponsible dog owners out there, but any dog can be turned into a danger with a bad owner, not just certain breeds.

jami     
2011-01-22 8:22 AM
in reply to: #3314811

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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
I think it is a real shame, because for every one irresponsible jerkwad "bully" breed owner, there are two owners who have taken the time to train and socialize their dog. I think it needs to be said that ANY dog can bite, ANY dog is capable of hurting another dog or a person. It is the nature of being a dog. The goal, as an owner, should be to have a healthy, polite, well socialized dog. And any action that turns an animal into a weapon is and should be scorned and dealt with.

I guess I fall into the "ban the deed, not the breed" category.

And Graff has a tres cute puppy!

Edited by phoenixazul 2011-01-22 8:23 AM
2011-01-23 11:27 AM
in reply to: #3314821

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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
LGraff - 2011-01-22 2:37 AM

The ears have been what got me from day 1.  I have mixed feelings too about the bully bans.  I know too many people who are responsible dog owners who have rescued mixed breeds that are becoming outlawed that it kind of makes me mad.  In addition to this one I also have a siberian husky and they are on the short list in many places in the states right behind "bullys" and yet they can be such sweet dogs.  But I'm also not trying to start a political debate about should they or shouldn't they be banned.

(This pic is from the day she showed up at my house.  I couldn't turn her away.


Freakin adorable!

Here's our Sitka Dog. She was taken from abusive owners by animal control and we adopted her. She is absolutely the best dog ever. We brought her home when she was approximately 9 months old. She's 6.5 now.

The pound called her a "lab terrier mix." I think it was to make her more adoptable.

Our vet said Pit Bull/Border Collie. I think that's a much more likely combo. Doesn't make her any less awesome.

Pictures:
Mountain Biking
Day we brought her home
With Izzy (picture is 3 years old)



Edited by graceful_dave 2011-01-23 11:30 AM




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2011-01-23 12:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
Duke's an English Labrador Mix on paper, but I'm pretty sure there's pit in there somewhere...

2011-01-23 1:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
I met someone recently who has a golden retriever and a younger blue nose pit.  The golden initiates fights with the pit - which really goes against the stereotypes of breeds. But I remember my first golden was very dog-shy, and had an aggressive fear response, so I could absolutely believe it.

I wonder how many people who demonize pit bulls remember that Petey (the dog from the Little Rascals) was a pit bull?  Pit bulls used to have a reputation of being great dogs around kids - now they are seen as hounds from hell.  When I grew up, German Shepards and Dobermans had that reputation.
2011-01-23 2:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
Love my Pit Bull! His name is Trigger and he is about 6 months old. He is the most loving dog I have owned and gets along great will all dogs and people

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2011-01-23 2:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
^ That's a cute pup!
2011-01-23 3:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
A vet student friend of mine explained to me that pit bulls are actually less aggressive, on average, than all other breeds according to some first-response metric. Something about pit bulls being the most populous breed due to the generalized classification of the breed. Essentially, if you look at it proportionally, they're one of the least aggressive breeds, but since they have the most numbers, they get a bad rap.

This is second hand info, so my apologies if this is poorly worded or incorrect somewhere.


2011-01-23 3:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
I was doing a cool down walk yesterday with my youngest in a jogging stroller and two oldest on their bikes when we where acosted by two pits. I've delt with a lot of dogs in my day but that's the first time I've ever had to tell my children to run away while I fought off two dogs. Sorry to disagree with so many, talk to me in a few weeks when I cool down.
2011-01-23 4:09 PM
in reply to: #3316589

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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
sea2summit - 2011-01-23 4:36 PM I was doing a cool down walk yesterday with my youngest in a jogging stroller and two oldest on their bikes when we where acosted by two pits. I've delt with a lot of dogs in my day but that's the first time I've ever had to tell my children to run away while I fought off two dogs. Sorry to disagree with so many, talk to me in a few weeks when I cool down.


Any dogs can be aggressive.  Pit bulls are not really as breed going to be more so than any other dogs.  My mother, as a child, was attacked by a neighbor's chow.  As a result, she had a lifelong belief that chows were the most vicious breed. I grew up thinking German Shepards and Dobermans were the most dangerous.  My first dog as an adult was a golden retriever that allegedly attacked her owner's girlfriend, resulting in her being given up for adoption.

Part of the reason that pit bulls are now the "bad dogs" is the sheer numbers of dogs that have pit bull in them; and part is that people who get them may be getting them FOR the bad reputation (then either training them to be aggressive, or not training them to be socialized).  It's a little like saying a certain kind of gun is more deadly than the others because it is involved in more homicides.
2011-01-23 4:11 PM
in reply to: #3314811

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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
I think there are a few issues with the breed.  It is not the frequency of the bites, as much as it is the severity of the bite due to the lock jaw strength aspect of the pit bull.  When they do bite, the injuries tend to be more severe.

I also believe, as with any breed, when you have irresponsible breeders you get in-bred dogs that exhibit the worst of the breed.  You see it with the popular "friendly" breeds as well.

Go on Craigslist and look at the pet section, predominantly pit bull due to size, landlord not accepting, etc etc.  It breaks my heart that they are bred so indiscriminantly and tossed aside.  Many Homeowners policies now ban pits, rotties, shepherds etc from coverage.  It is hard to own one if you don't own your home and even then it may be a challenge.

We owned a pit bull when I was younger, and she was an absolute sweet heart.  Deaf, but just a lover.  We talked about returning her to the breeder when we found out she was deaf, but they told us they would euthanize her, so we kept her and she was awesome!!  All hand commands and loved our two scottish terriers.  When the male died, we buried him out on the corner of our property and the pit bull sat out there for two weeks and just howled her sorrow.  

2011-01-23 4:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
Agree with a lot in this thread.
There are issues with Pitts that other breeds don't have, but most can be behaviorily trained out. The problem is, some owners don't bother. The best thing I can recommend if you have a Pitt or a Pitt mix (or even suspect) is to do some research on those Pitt characteristics and how to properly train them out.

I used to be "mama" to a Husky/Pitt mix - sweet, loving dog but he did show some of those undesirable characteristics at times. Very aggressive around other dogs, territorial and food possessive (more than most dogs), attacked/fought with more dogs than I can count, that kind of thing. Had him since he was 8 weeks old though, so it wasn't like he learned it somewhere else. Tough situation sometimes.

I was attacked as a child by a Spitz mix. But in all honesty it could have been ANY breed. I don't blame the breed at all. I *do* put part of the blame on the owners as I was not the first person the dog had attacked. I also blame myself for getting in a strange dog's face.

 
2011-01-23 5:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
Cooper is a lab/pit mix



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2011-01-23 5:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
And closer to currently



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2011-01-23 6:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
SGriepsma - 2011-01-23 5:11 PM I think there are a few issues with the breed.  It is not the frequency of the bites, as much as it is the severity of the bite due to the lock jaw strength aspect of the pit bull.  When they do bite, the injuries tend to be more severe.



Please, for the sake of Pits and Pit owners everywhere, do NOT say this! Pit bulls do have strong jaws but they cannot lock them.
2011-01-23 6:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
TriathletePT - 2011-01-23 6:36 PM

Cooper is a lab/pit mix


He looks like he is saying, "How YOU doin'"
2011-01-23 8:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
ratherbeswimming - 2011-01-23 7:16 PM
SGriepsma - 2011-01-23 5:11 PM I think there are a few issues with the breed.  It is not the frequency of the bites, as much as it is the severity of the bite due to the lock jaw strength aspect of the pit bull.  When they do bite, the injuries tend to be more severe.



Please, for the sake of Pits and Pit owners everywhere, do NOT say this! Pit bulls do have strong jaws but they cannot lock them.


I routinely give my lab and golden femur bones from the pet store.  They can turn them into shards in very little time - and their teeth are already kind of worn down from age (13 and 12 respectively).  If either of them were to attack a person, I have no doubts that they could rip digits, tendons, muscle and potentially break bones of a person. Even non-pit dogs are capable of doing serious damage. And ironically, the one time I was ever bitten by a pit, he barely broke skin.

Edited by gearboy 2011-01-23 8:45 PM
2011-01-23 9:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
gearboy - 2011-01-23 6:44 PM
ratherbeswimming - 2011-01-23 7:16 PM
SGriepsma - 2011-01-23 5:11 PM I think there are a few issues with the breed.  It is not the frequency of the bites, as much as it is the severity of the bite due to the lock jaw strength aspect of the pit bull.  When they do bite, the injuries tend to be more severe.



Please, for the sake of Pits and Pit owners everywhere, do NOT say this! Pit bulls do have strong jaws but they cannot lock them.


I routinely give my lab and golden femur bones from the pet store.  They can turn them into shards in very little time - and their teeth are already kind of worn down from age (13 and 12 respectively).  If either of them were to attack a person, I have no doubts that they could rip digits, tendons, muscle and potentially break bones of a person. Even non-pit dogs are capable of doing serious damage. And ironically, the one time I was ever bitten by a pit, he barely broke skin.


I don't disagree that other dogs can do as much damage, but I was just pointing out why others react to the pit bull, because of the severity, which is often publicized more than if another dog breed was at fault.  I also think this is why the insurance industry has targeted them for exclusion with other breeds (most common are the Akita, Doberman, German Shepherd, Pit Bull and Rottweiler).

Obviously did not express it right to get across my meaning.





2011-01-23 9:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
SGriepsma - 2011-01-23 10:01 PM
...

I don't disagree that other dogs can do as much damage, but I was just pointing out why others react to the pit bull, because of the severity, which is often publicized more than if another dog breed was at fault.  I also think this is why the insurance industry has targeted them for exclusion with other breeds (most common are the Akita, Doberman, German Shepherd, Pit Bull and Rottweiler).

Obviously did not express it right to get across my meaning.





But you were citing a well-worn urban myth.  Bite strength is not dependent on breed in general, but on the size of the dog overall. Here a few references (1, 2, 3) - not the original sources, but repeating specific numbers from specific breeds tested for bite force.

I don't know what you mean when you say they are targeted by insurance for "exclusion". I also don't know if it is based on data, rumor, or associations (for example, if you are the kind of person who buys pit bulls, are you more likely to be in a high risk category in other ways?)
2011-01-23 9:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
gearboy - 2011-01-23 7:13 PM
SGriepsma - 2011-01-23 10:01 PM
...

I don't disagree that other dogs can do as much damage, but I was just pointing out why others react to the pit bull, because of the severity, which is often publicized more than if another dog breed was at fault.  I also think this is why the insurance industry has targeted them for exclusion with other breeds (most common are the Akita, Doberman, German Shepherd, Pit Bull and Rottweiler).

Obviously did not express it right to get across my meaning.





But you were citing a well-worn urban myth.  Bite strength is not dependent on breed in general, but on the size of the dog overall. Here a few references (1, 2, 3) - not the original sources, but repeating specific numbers from specific breeds tested for bite force.

I don't know what you mean when you say they are targeted by insurance for "exclusion". I also don't know if it is based on data, rumor, or associations (for example, if you are the kind of person who buys pit bulls, are you more likely to be in a high risk category in other ways?)


When I said lock jaw strength aspect, I was referring to their "bite, hold, shake" and refusal to release tendencies if they are aggressive.  Insurance companies (been in the industry for 16 years) are excluding them from homeowner's policies due to the cost of the injuries and the settlement values, not because it indicates other risky behaviors.  For some carriers it is standard language in all policies.   You can own one, but if they bite, your homeowner's won't defend or indemnify you as the homeowner if it is listed on the policy as an exclusion.  The industry has looked at dog bite data and settled on a few breeds that show tendencies to bite and are expensive to settle (typically an indicator of severity). 

Edited by SGriepsma 2011-01-23 9:23 PM
2011-01-24 8:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
SGriepsma - 2011-01-23 10:20 PM  

When I said lock jaw strength aspect, I was referring to their "bite, hold, shake" and refusal to release tendencies if they are aggressive.  Insurance companies (been in the industry for 16 years) are excluding them from homeowner's policies due to the cost of the injuries and the settlement values, not because it indicates other risky behaviors.  For some carriers it is standard language in all policies.   You can own one, but if they bite, your homeowner's won't defend or indemnify you as the homeowner if it is listed on the policy as an exclusion.  The industry has looked at dog bite data and settled on a few breeds that show tendencies to bite and are expensive to settle (typically an indicator of severity).  


But language like that, in an era where people believe everything they read, is part of what gives the dogs bad raps.
Discuss bite strength, and holding and shaking all you want, but as soon as "lock jaw" is thrown in there, you're perpetuating a bad myth.
Sorry to get defensive, but it's just something I'm not tolerant of. 
2011-01-24 9:13 AM
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Subject: RE: Pit Bulls and Pit Mixes
SGriepsma - 2011-01-23 10:20 PM
gearboy - 2011-01-23 7:13 PM
SGriepsma - 2011-01-23 10:01 PM
...

I don't disagree that other dogs can do as much damage, but I was just pointing out why others react to the pit bull, because of the severity, which is often publicized more than if another dog breed was at fault.  I also think this is why the insurance industry has targeted them for exclusion with other breeds (most common are the Akita, Doberman, German Shepherd, Pit Bull and Rottweiler).

Obviously did not express it right to get across my meaning.





But you were citing a well-worn urban myth.  Bite strength is not dependent on breed in general, but on the size of the dog overall. Here a few references (1, 2, 3) - not the original sources, but repeating specific numbers from specific breeds tested for bite force.

I don't know what you mean when you say they are targeted by insurance for "exclusion". I also don't know if it is based on data, rumor, or associations (for example, if you are the kind of person who buys pit bulls, are you more likely to be in a high risk category in other ways?)


When I said lock jaw strength aspect, I was referring to their "bite, hold, shake" and refusal to release tendencies if they are aggressive.  Insurance companies (been in the industry for 16 years) are excluding them from homeowner's policies due to the cost of the injuries and the settlement values, not because it indicates other risky behaviors.  For some carriers it is standard language in all policies.   You can own one, but if they bite, your homeowner's won't defend or indemnify you as the homeowner if it is listed on the policy as an exclusion.  The industry has looked at dog bite data and settled on a few breeds that show tendencies to bite and are expensive to settle (typically an indicator of severity). 


I think this is the key.  I know that in malpractice cases (at least), the issue of whether to settle or not has little to do with merits of a case, but more to do with how it will play out in front of a jury.  Given that most jurors are not going to be experts in whatever the issue is, there is a good chance of some things being carried by an emotional argument. 

Tell someone that I was bit by a dog, and I might or might not win my case.  Tell them it was a pit bull, and instantly there are images of hyperaggressive dogs. They picture this:


and not this:


Remember that one of the reasons Michael Vick would beat or kill his pit bulls was if they were not aggressive enough for him.  Some of the dogs removed are now placed with families and doing well.  And these were dogs that were being used as dog-fighting dogs. 

So to summarize - insurances ban coverage of certain breeds because it is tough to win cases.  People hear that insurances ban coverage, and assume that means the breed is "too dangerous".  So they decide against those dogs.  Making it tough to win cases.  Has nothing in the end to do with the likelihood of the breed attacking people, or the severity of the attacks, and a lot to do with bad publicity.
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