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2011-02-09 9:27 PM

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Subject: How do you train for a 10K swim???
As it turns out, I have two events with 10K swims in them this year.  Never swam that far before.  I'm an okay swimmer (weakest of my 3 disciplines), but not great (my IM swim is about 1:15).  When I ramp up my training for an IM, I'll get up to where I can do 4500m or 5000m continuous.  Is it just more of the same?


2011-02-09 9:39 PM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
enginerd - 2011-02-09 9:27 PM As it turns out, I have two events with 10K swims in them this year.  Never swam that far before.  I'm an okay swimmer (weakest of my 3 disciplines), but not great (my IM swim is about 1:15).  When I ramp up my training for an IM, I'll get up to where I can do 4500m or 5000m continuous.  Is it just more of the same?


I never did that much continuous for any of my 10k's.  I did a lot of things like 6x600 with 10"RI at "race pace".  So, several "longer" intervals at the steady pace you are planning for the race.

My longest training swim was 10000 yards in the pool one year...other years it was 6 or 7000 at the longest.  Just depended on what kind of training I was doing.  Otherwise I just swam a LOT.  3-4 times a week, 3000-6000 yards at a pop.

You can read my RR's from the three 10k's I did. 
2011-02-09 9:42 PM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
jldicarlo - 2011-02-09 9:39 PM

enginerd - 2011-02-09 9:27 PM As it turns out, I have two events with 10K swims in them this year.  Never swam that far before.  I'm an okay swimmer (weakest of my 3 disciplines), but not great (my IM swim is about 1:15).  When I ramp up my training for an IM, I'll get up to where I can do 4500m or 5000m continuous.  Is it just more of the same?


I never did that much continuous for any of my 10k's.  I did a lot of things like 6x600 with 10"RI at "race pace".  So, several "longer" intervals at the steady pace you are planning for the race.

My longest training swim was 10000 yards in the pool one year...other years it was 6 or 7000 at the longest.  Just depended on what kind of training I was doing.  Otherwise I just swam a LOT.  3-4 times a week, 3000-6000 yards at a pop.

You can read my RR's from the three 10k's I did. 


I took her advice when I trained for a 3 mile OWS. Did _x500 up to 5,000 meters, with a 10 second rest. Worked great.

Otherwise, a 1:15 IM swim isn't shabby. Of course, that was my time, and I didn't think I completely sucked. Ha!


2011-02-09 10:10 PM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
jldicarlo - 2011-02-09 9:39 PM
enginerd - 2011-02-09 9:27 PM As it turns out, I have two events with 10K swims in them this year.  Never swam that far before.  I'm an okay swimmer (weakest of my 3 disciplines), but not great (my IM swim is about 1:15).  When I ramp up my training for an IM, I'll get up to where I can do 4500m or 5000m continuous.  Is it just more of the same?


I never did that much continuous for any of my 10k's.  I did a lot of things like 6x600 with 10"RI at "race pace".  So, several "longer" intervals at the steady pace you are planning for the race.

My longest training swim was 10000 yards in the pool one year...other years it was 6 or 7000 at the longest.  Just depended on what kind of training I was doing.  Otherwise I just swam a LOT.  3-4 times a week, 3000-6000 yards at a pop.

And just noticed that you did the Pensacola swim - awesome!  Best event I did last year by a long way.

You can read my RR's from the three 10k's I did. 


Spot on.  Pretty much what I did for my 5k swim last year.  Started early in the training cycle doing a lot of sprints and hard tempos and then extended those into longer endurance swims late.  Swim went great.

Edited by sand101 2011-02-09 10:16 PM
2011-02-10 3:28 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
sand101 - 2011-02-09 9:10 PM

You can read my RR's from the three 10k's I did. 


Spot on.  Pretty much what I did for my 5k swim last year.  Started early in the training cycle doing a lot of sprints and hard tempos and then extended those into longer endurance swims late.  Swim went great.


That's a great "reverse periodization" of your swim training...I wish more peopel would apply it to the bike & run legs of long course (or longer) training.

Impressed with all of you.
2011-02-10 3:41 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
My longest training swim was 10000 yards in the pool one year...other years it was 6 or 7000 at the longest.  Just depended on what kind of training I was doing.  Otherwise I just swam a LOT.  3-4 times a week, 3000-6000 yards at a pop.

You can read my RR's from the three 10k's I did. 


My wife swam the 25K USMS OWS championships and did pretty 6-7K every time she went to the pool (which was at least 4-5X/week) The USMS course was close to us so she went there and swam 50% to 75% of the distance on the weekends. She did VERY well.

I've done 5K and 7K a couple of times. I was fine with a long swim of about 4K. Have fun.

Jamie


2011-02-10 5:20 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
Check out some of the "Zen and the art of triathlon" podcasts.  There's a couple in there that deal with training for long swims and also things like nutrition, chafing and dealing with jellyfish, eek!!  You can download 'em free form iTunes.
2011-02-10 7:54 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
jamiej - 2011-02-10 4:41 AM

My wife swam the 25K USMS OWS championships and did pretty 6-7K every time she went to the pool (which was at least 4-5X/week



Who the heck thought of that sick event?  25k swim?   I would die of boredom well before my body gave out!  How anyone could swim for 6-10 hours non-stop is beyond comprehension for me!  WOW!
2011-02-10 8:00 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
First of all...nice name.  I resemble that.

I've never swam 10K before, but it sounds like fun, so good luck.  1:15 is not fast, but definitely respectable. 

That's all I have for you.
2011-02-10 8:22 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
enginerd - 2011-02-09 9:27 PM ... I'm an okay swimmer (weakest of my 3 disciplines), but not great (my IM swim is about 1:15).  ...


I laugh when people say this.  Being "not great" is when you swim like I do.
2011-02-10 8:41 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
I don't.


2011-02-10 8:49 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
I think you've gotten great advice so far.

For my 5k swim last year, I was swimming 3x per week ~4000yrds/swim and then throwing in a long set of 5000-6000yrds straight long swim (every other week) to get used to the boredom.

I was feeling great and ready for it too.

My 4000s were a mix of shorter faster sprints on one session, longer more tempo sets on one session, and a healthy mix on the third.

But the idea is to swim lots!
2011-02-10 8:54 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???

Another component of swimming that far is the sighting and the use of the muscles used to do that. So I guess do some neck strength building as well.

2011-02-10 10:09 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???

3 years ago I found BT when I registered for a 3 mi open water swim!! I hadn’t even considered a Tri, but w/ exactly the same question I stumbled upon BT b/c there just isn’t a ton out there. Listen to all these brilliant people here, and DON’T do what I did!!

As my first race ever (at anything, since high school swim team), I was more worried about finishing & not being last than being fast. I did 3x/week, and worked my way up to 3 mi at a time in one long slow set. Swimming back to back days made my arms feel like rubber, so 3x per week it was! It worked, kind of. I finished, and only hurt myself w/ an ill fitting wetsuit; not by overreaching for something I wasn’t trained for.

So last year, I solve the problem of the wet suit by just not wearing one anymore, and registered for a 4.4 mile swim. Sadly, and slowly I’m just not that quick to figure stuff out, I began to realize that I was getting SLOWER. Not Faster. (w/ the same method of 3x/week in a single long set each tile I had worked up to 4.4 miles). I finished that 4.4 mi (and repeated the 3 mile) strong, uninjured, and not even all that tired.

But NOT FAST. The long slow sets just weren’t necessary, and weren’t doing anything for my speed.  Maybe one day at the distance to assuage your worry about pulling it off; but definitely not 3 miles, 3x per week, for 3 months or so. Bottom line is: listen to everyone else about smaller, faster sets.



Edited by asgate99 2011-02-10 10:09 AM
2011-02-10 11:29 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
Well, Donato, you big co-nerd ...

um, I didn't train for my 5k OWS, so I figure if you just do double of nothing, you should be fine too

Ditto what the other fishies said about shorter faster sets ... just lots of volume of them.
2011-02-10 11:36 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
Last year I coached a guy to do a 10K swim and it was pretty much the same approach as someone training for a 2.4 swim, just more of it. Longer sets, a bit less intensity, more OWS (to practice fueling, sighting) and some long sessions (10k +). Don't know about your event but some are no wetsuit so make sure you are comfortable swimming that long.

Edited by JorgeM 2011-02-10 11:37 AM


2011-02-10 11:45 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
Thanks for all the great advice everyone (this is one reason BT is so great).  A few more follow up questions.

I'm curious as to why we go LSD on bike and run, but not on the swim?  Is it because swimming technique is so critical and it breaks down in long swims (and you don't want to reinforce that muscle memory)?  I love the LSD which is why I like to go long and to be honest, that's how I've always trained my swim (which is probably why I'm only a MOP swimmer...)

How about fueling on the swim, both in training and racing?  My swims have always generally been short enough that I've never taken anything in during a swim training or race, but a 10K swim and I'm assuming some of the longer training sets will need this as well.  Jennifer, I saw in your 10K RRs that you started with GUs in your first 10K and then started using a gel bot.  Is that the recommended way to go?

Do you typically breathe bilaterally when going long?  I usually would do the first half of my training that way and as I became fatigued, I'd breathe on my right side.  Racing, I would typically only breathe on my right side.  I notice on a long set, my neck would get sore always rotating to the same side, so I've been working on just going bilateral the whole way.  Does this make sense?

What's the strategy for pacing when going long?  I'm guessing it's just like a long run or bike that you want it to be somewhat relaxed at the start.  Is that right?

Realistically, I'll probably only be swimming 2x/week.  So, that will obviously somewhat limit my volume.  Any particular advice if I'm only going 2x/wk? 
2011-02-10 11:51 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???

Are you responsible for having your own support craft?  If so then any fueling needs you would have will be with you whenever you need.

2011-02-10 11:54 AM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
tri/tbay - 2011-02-10 9:51 AM

Are you responsible for having your own support craft?  If so then any fueling needs you would have will be with you whenever you need.



On ultraman, yes, will have my own crew on a kayak for swim.  Not sure about the Bridge to Bridge swim yet.
2011-02-10 12:01 PM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
asgate99 - 2011-02-10 10:09 AM

 I finished that 4.4 mi (and repeated the 3 mile) strong, uninjured, and not even all that tired.



I soooo want to do that Chesapeake Bay Swim!!  :jealous:

LostSheep - 2011-02-10 8:49 AM

For my 5k swim last year, I was swimming 3x per week ~4000yrds/swim and then throwing in a long set of 5000-6000yrds straight long swim (every other week) to get used to the boredom.


Following the black line for 4000yds I find to be quite tedious.  The 3.3 miles of the race, though, was anything but boring.  IMO, of course.


enginerd - 2011-02-10 11:45 AM

I'm curious as to why we go LSD on bike and run, but not on the swim?  Is it because swimming technique is so critical and it breaks down in long swims (and you don't want to reinforce that muscle memory)?  I love the LSD which is why I like to go long and to be honest, that's how I've always trained my swim (which is probably why I'm only a MOP swimmer...)


It has more to do with the fact that swimming is non-impact.  Personally I get so much more out of a 10x200 set leaving every 3:00 than doing a LSD 2000.  In my training last year I never did over 500yd sets.  Well, not quite true - I tried to do the 5600yds in the pool once to prove to myself I wouldn't drown and got intolerably bored and quit at 2500.

In a long swim like this I would say that if your form breaks down you are going too fast.


How about fueling on the swim, both in training and racing?  My swims have always generally been short enough that I've never taken anything in during a swim training or race, but a 10K swim and I'm assuming some of the longer training sets will need this as well.  Jennifer, I saw in your 10K RRs that you started with GUs in your first 10K and then started using a gel bot.  Is that the recommended way to go?


Race dependent?  At Pensacola the 10k guys/girls had a feeding station at the 5k turnaround.  A 5k really doesn't need feeding, so I'm really not keen on this one.


Do you typically breathe bilaterally when going long?  I usually would do the first half of my training that way and as I became fatigued, I'd breathe on my right side.  Racing, I would typically only breathe on my right side.  I notice on a long set, my neck would get sore always rotating to the same side, so I've been working on just going bilateral the whole way.  Does this make sense?


Personal choice.  I only use opposite side breathing if the surf was causing issues.  This is one you need to figure out during some practice swims.


What's the strategy for pacing when going long?  I'm guessing it's just like a long run or bike that you want it to be somewhat relaxed at the start.  Is that right?


I concentrated on being smooth and breathing well.  I wanted to be very comfortable through the halfway point.  At halfway I picked up the effort somewhat.  I hit the gas at 1.5-2k to go and sprinted it in at about 500 to go.  This 5k was my first, and I wanted to make sure I touched sand on the opposite side of the bay.  Next time I may be a bit more aggressive.


Realistically, I'll probably only be swimming 2x/week.  So, that will obviously somewhat limit my volume.  Any particular advice if I'm only going 2x/wk? 


At least 4k per session, IMO.  Probably 5k+.  I'd mix in healthy amounts of drills, hard tempos, and cruise intervals.

2011-02-10 12:18 PM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???

In a race with no personal support crafts (5K), I just slip a GU inside my suit and tread water to eat it when I get low.  This works fine and the GU package does not seem to chafe me, possibly because it just floats around in my suit.

I'm going to disagree with the majority here a little and say that I really value my LSD swims.  Especially if you are tri-training at the same time as your swim training, the LSD swims are a welcome break for the legs from bike/run while training the rest of you for how to pace (how to adjust goggles, how to overcome boredom, how to work out any cramps) in a long swim.  For my first 5K swim, I swam 6K meters continuously as my longest swim.  For the other two 5Ks, I swam 5K as my longest swim.  I don't think it would kill you to take 10 second breaks between sets of 1K or something like that but I felt a lot more confident in my race knowing that I could already go the distance without stopping.

I do the same 5K race each year and my time has improved each year, but it improved the most dramatically in 2010 with the addition of structured workouts instead of my usual Nx500 intervals sprinkled in with 10x100 IM or sprints.  I use the speed workouts on Sara McLarty's website and saw huge speed gains with this strategy.    Last year I did my LSD swims on Mondays (recovery day) and my speed workouts on Fridays.



2011-02-10 12:43 PM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
Mrs. brown_dog_us - 2011-02-10 12:18 PM

I don't think it would kill you to take 10 second breaks between sets of 1K or something like that but I felt a lot more confident in my race knowing that I could already go the distance without stopping.



The day I decided to do a race simulation I intended to do exactly as you said - get confident that I could do the distance.  It was a fight between utter boredom and building confidence.  Boredom won handily. ;-)
2011-02-10 1:38 PM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???


I soooo want to do that Chesapeake Bay Swim!!  :jealous:

LostSheep - 2011-02-10 8:49 AM

For my 5k swim last year, I was swimming 3x per week ~4000yrds/swim and then throwing in a long set of 5000-6000yrds straight long swim (every other week) to get used to the boredom.


Following the black line for 4000yds I find to be quite tedious.  The 3.3 miles of the race, though, was anything but boring.  IMO, of course.

Yeah - the Bay Brige was FUN! Way more fun than the 3 mile swim I've done in the river those 2 years. And RIGHT ON about it not being boring. Even the training was never particularly hard; just hard to be consistent, and do it all the time b/c it was so damm boring to think about going to the pool to stare at a black line for 2-3 hours 3x/week!! The race was NEVER boring, and there was no need to have put myself through that just to pull off the race! Would have done the race better (faster) by doing sets, and didn't NEED to be prepared to be that bored.

I say that as I haven't swam since October, and need to get on rejoining a pool/joining a Masters group for the first time. So clearly, you shoudl feel free to ignore me. But even for that 3 mile THIS year; I'm just thinking I'll hit Masters 2x/week w/ a longer swim on the weekend. Then once that race is over, probably just the masters 2x/week for the rest of tri season. Gotta get on my taxes, the refund is going towards a BUNCH of race registrations.

As far as gatorade or whatever; I never swam longer than 3 hours at a time, but was doing that fairly consistently (3x/week for about 3 months). I never ate or drank anything during those 3 hours. Going longer, 10K would be about 2K longer than I could do in 3 hours, you might need it. But right AT 3 hours; I was always REALLY hungry right after, but not bad.

Unfortunately, I can't do the Bay Bridge this year. Registration in November fell about 2-3 weeks bfore I took off on an extensive vacation. Money was just allocated there first since it was coming up first. But I will defintely do the Bridge again in 2012 if I can get another lottery slot!
2011-02-10 1:42 PM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
enginerd - 2011-02-10 11:45 AM Thanks for all the great advice everyone (this is one reason BT is so great).  A few more follow up questions.

I'm curious as to why we go LSD on bike and run, but not on the swim?  Is it because swimming technique is so critical and it breaks down in long swims (and you don't want to reinforce that muscle memory)?  I love the LSD which is why I like to go long and to be honest, that's how I've always trained my swim (which is probably why I'm only a MOP swimmer...)

How about fueling on the swim, both in training and racing?  My swims have always generally been short enough that I've never taken anything in during a swim training or race, but a 10K swim and I'm assuming some of the longer training sets will need this as well.  Jennifer, I saw in your 10K RRs that you started with GUs in your first 10K and then started using a gel bot.  Is that the recommended way to go?

Do you typically breathe bilaterally when going long?  I usually would do the first half of my training that way and as I became fatigued, I'd breathe on my right side.  Racing, I would typically only breathe on my right side.  I notice on a long set, my neck would get sore always rotating to the same side, so I've been working on just going bilateral the whole way.  Does this make sense?

What's the strategy for pacing when going long?  I'm guessing it's just like a long run or bike that you want it to be somewhat relaxed at the start.  Is that right?

Realistically, I'll probably only be swimming 2x/week.  So, that will obviously somewhat limit my volume.  Any particular advice if I'm only going 2x/wk? 


LSD is just not a swim thing I guess.  I have no scientific reasons to give you other than it just isn't done!  I sometimes wondered on a set like 6x600 with 10"RI...I mean, really...why don't we just say 3600 straight?  10" isn't enough time to do anything.  If you are holding a constant pace 10" of rest isn't going to magically make you go faster!  I think maybe it's more of a mental break and a way to help you keep count.   I have absolutely NEVER felt the need to "swim the distance to make sure I can".  Never, not once...not even my first tri which was a HIM.  It was enough for me to know I'd swam that distance and more in the pool with intervals and doing a normal swim workout.  If you are doing the longer interval workouts correctly you will be swimming a pace that you could sustain for a LONG time...rest or not.  If you are going out fast on each one and slowing down as the interval progresses, you are not doing them correctly!  The key is to find a pace that you are very comfortable with and teach your body to get used to it and be efficient at that pace.  My coach would prescribe two different paces for me to go...a "moderate" and a "fast".  He figured them out from my 800 yd TT's and I have NO idea what the math was.   But fast was about the equivalent of an LT feeling and "moderate" worked out to be my race RPE.  MOST of my sets were done at the more moderate pace.  Once a week or so we'd do the faster pace.  Over several weeks this made both paces faster.

Re: Nutrition.  Yes, the first year I did gels.  HUGE mistake.  Treading water while trying to open a gel is NOT easy!  Especially if the water is on the cold side!  And in a non-wetsuit swim like mine have been you can't rely on the wetsuit to let you float!  I did switch to the gel bot which was MUCH easier.  A gel flask and a water bottle would work just as well.  But that was all before I discovered infinit.  I think I actually did most of my 10k's before infinit was really big.  But if I was going to do another one I would totally go with infinit...fluid and calories all in one bottle...can't go wrong with that!  Using just one hand keeps your other hand free to help you tread water.  And water bottles (unlike gels) tend to float.  Edited to add that I never practiced my nutrition plan in the pool...no real need.  I WOULD bring some kind of sports drink with me to the pool for the longer stuff (over 5k) to keep the energy up for the workout.  For the actual swim I would take in some nutrition every 30'.  And my 10k's have ranged from 3:17-3:45.  No way could I swim THAT long without nutrition.  But I haven't taken ANY in on any of the 5k's I've done or the one 6k I did.

Re: Bilateral breathing.  BB is definitely the preferred way to go for many reasons...one side doesn't get used more than the other, you tend to swim straighter, etc. etc.  But it just depends on the race.  My second 10k there were a TON of boats out on the water making waves that would hit me from the right hand side.  So I ended up doing a lot of breathing to the left.  It was just the conditions thrown at us that day.  But my moderate pace is about the fastest I can go and still breathe bilaterally.  Sometimes when I need more air I'll breathe left for 5-10 strokes then switch to right for 5-10 etc. etc.  Honestly, I just breathe.  I try not to think about it.

Re: Pacing.  I tried to hold a steady effort the whole way, just like a long bike or long run.  Steady effort.  Sometimes when I get bored I slack off the effort but then I just have to get my brain back in the game and make sure I am holding the effort.  Whatever pace that gives me, it gives me.

I think 2x a week isn't enough.  3x is a BARE MINIMUM for maintenance.  If you want any improvement you'd want 4-5x a week.  But I would at LEAST swim 3x a week even if one of them is shorter (3k).

Edited by jldicarlo 2011-02-10 1:45 PM
2011-02-10 1:55 PM
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Subject: RE: How do you train for a 10K swim???
enginerd - 2011-02-10 11:45 AM Thanks for all the great advice everyone (this is one reason BT is so great).  A few more follow up questions.

I'm curious as to why we go LSD on bike and run, but not on the swim?  Is it because swimming technique is so critical and it breaks down in long swims (and you don't want to reinforce that muscle memory)?  I love the LSD which is why I like to go long and to be honest, that's how I've always trained my swim (which is probably why I'm only a MOP swimmer...)

How about fueling on the swim, both in training and racing?  My swims have always generally been short enough that I've never taken anything in during a swim training or race, but a 10K swim and I'm assuming some of the longer training sets will need this as well.  Jennifer, I saw in your 10K RRs that you started with GUs in your first 10K and then started using a gel bot.  Is that the recommended way to go?

Do you typically breathe bilaterally when going long?  I usually would do the first half of my training that way and as I became fatigued, I'd breathe on my right side.  Racing, I would typically only breathe on my right side.  I notice on a long set, my neck would get sore always rotating to the same side, so I've been working on just going bilateral the whole way.  Does this make sense?

What's the strategy for pacing when going long?  I'm guessing it's just like a long run or bike that you want it to be somewhat relaxed at the start.  Is that right?

Realistically, I'll probably only be swimming 2x/week.  So, that will obviously somewhat limit my volume.  Any particular advice if I'm only going 2x/wk? 


I do and have my athletes do so, I refer to them as OWS  Even for those who can't do OWS often I have them do steady long swims simulations every now and then (i.e. 4x1000 short rest). The guy I helped for the 10K would do a weekly 3-6mi OWS on a 1/2 mile length pond during the specific phase

Also, I disagree somewhat with the reasoning about not swimming if your technique breaks down; IMO you must learn to swim specially when tired. As your fitness improves, your 'form' will break down less. That's one of the reasons I have athletes do drills but also, swim more (short, easy, long, fast, tempo, OWS, etc.).

As for only swimming 2x week, that might be challenging to get you ready, you might need 8-10k+ sessions.
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