How FAR is Far Enough? training question

If you are focusing on Olympic distance, then 15k runs and 60k bike rides are likely overkill. Also, a lot of the literature suggests that Z3 training for Olympic distance isn't going to give you much bang for your buck. Heavy amounts of Z3 training are standard for long-course training, but not so much for Olympic distance. You might be better served sticking to Z2 for your basic workouts (endurance/aerobic) and Z4+ for your breakthrough (intervals [LT and V02max]) workouts.

Can you give us some references for this? By literature...are talking about evidence based information or anectdotal opinion of coaches?

I'm not trying to be a pain by asking this...but if there is something out there that actually supports this (Z3 not appropriate for Oly distance) then I'd like to see it.

Because I've never actually read anything evidence based which suggests that and I don't personally believe it to be true. But I know there are a lot of books published that all roll down from the opinions and practices of one or two coaches which suggest the same thing write.

I believe the OP COULD get more bang for his buck by shortening some of the longer workouts...or at least maintaining them, but by beginning to indroduce longer blocks of Z3 into his long rides & runs.

Edited by AdventureBear 2011-02-13 10:13 PM

Not my typical response but,  X2

Also, I don't find 15k runsand 60k bikes to be anywhere near overkill for Olympic distance, though it depends on the athlete's background, motivation and goals.

Dr. Philip Skiba in Scientific Training for Triathletes says of Level (Zone) 3 "Tempo" training:

Key Concept: "Long race pace training: Marathon/IM/Half-IM. Do not send significant time here unless racing longer events."

This book provides a whole lot of detail and references and I highly recommend it.

Was that supposed to say "unless racing SHORTER events"?  I can't imagine racing longer than an IM.  So does this mean that for an olympic tri I WOULD benefit from training in zone 3? 

     Then would you recommend running 10K and biking 40K tops and just do them more often?  I guess what I am trying to get at is this: obviously someone training for a 5K is going to run longer distances than 5K, but on the other hand, I don't think that marathon runners do long runs in the 30-50 mile range.  So what about an olympic tri?  Yes the run is only 10K, but the whole event is 2-3 hours, and the run is the last thing.  So it would seem like working on long runs (ie up to 20K) would help my running on tired legs.  I am new to the sport, but from what I have read, it seems like time in zone 3 WOULD help because this is probably about where I will be most of the race.  Is there any solid evidence that olympic training should not include zone 3 closer to the race date?

I'm no coach but somewhat agree with Luscan that up to 15k run & 60k bike don't seem like overkill for Oly.  Strong runners (unlike me) often include some 8-10mi long runs in their 10k training program, and 40k TT cyclists certainly do not limit their long rides to 40k. 

No, its supposed to say what it says. If you are racing long events like the HIM or IM, then spend significant time in Zone 3. Since you are focusing on an Olympic, spend the bulk of your time training outside Zone 3.

"I don't find 15k runsand 60k bikes to be anywhere near overkill for Olympic distance, though it depends on the athlete's background, motivation and goals."

OP says 4 months to FIRST triathlon, which is why I said its LIKELY overkill. If he said he was training to win his AG in his 4th season, it wouldn't be in the realm of overkill. Like almost every question found in these forums, its situation dependent.

But notice that he doesn't provide any references to back up this particular claim.  IMO he has fallen victim to repeating an 'old coach's tale'.  No disrespect to him -- we all occasionally fall into the trap of repeating dogma.

With all due respect to Skiba (and I mean that -- I respect his books and articles very much), this is far too simplistic a statement, and indeed the very principles that inform his own work tell us why.

1.  Zones are a discrete human convention imposed on a continuous range of stresses of the different physiological systems.  Its not as if the benefits of z2 suddenly disappear when we enter z3, nor as if the benefits of z4 are fully absent while we are in z3.  Skiba knows this, of course.  So, for example, there may be very good reasons, in the context of a given athlete's situation, to spend time in z3 in order to get some z4 benefit without actually going, too much, into z4.

2.  The factors that determine what zone any given session, or portion of a session, should be in are many, including the athlete's current fitness, current level of fatigue, susceptibility to injury, time of season, relation to other workouts in the week or training block, goal race, and so on.  Skiba knows this, of course.  The goal race is only one of these factors, which is why, again, it is simplistic to make a statement such as the one you quoted.

As a one-off, OK.  But week in and week out, this is a bad idea, IMO.  Aim for more like 30%.

Ok going back 4 weeks your runs are Week 1: 3, 6, Week 2: 3, 3.75, Week 3: 3, 9, and Week 4: 3, 7. 

Your average weekly run vollume is around 9 miles with 2 runs a week.  First your long run is 2-3 times your short run wich happens to be your only other run for the week.  Second your run frequency is way too low to gain any real benefit from your workouts.  If you want to run 9-10 miles for a long run, your runs should look more like 3, 5, 4, 9 or 3, 4, 6, 3, 10.  But as Jyous said max of 50% of your weekly vollume.


If you want to do sprints, your  a long run of 6 miles is fine, Oly probably 10 miles and Him probably 15 miles. 
For biking splrints, Your long ride should be 20 miles, Oly 40, and HIM 65-70.  
Swimming varies a bit for the shorter races, but you can probably do 30 min 2x a week for an Sprint, 45 min 2x a week for a Oly and 30 60 30 for a Him (this is high if you are  good swimmer).   

You really should follow a plan.  You can do a 3x3x2 or a 3x3x3 or a 4x4x3 etc.  RBS. 

Typically your workouts should minimally be short, medium long distance in each discipline. 

Typically allow 2-3 months for a sprint build, 4 months for an Oly build and 6-7 months for a HIM build, 1-2 years for a IM depending on your starting fitness.  (yes this is semi conservative to allow for slow building from your low base and reduce the risk of injury.). 

There really are no shortcuts in triathlon.  If you are genetically gifted and young you can abuse your body more go faster sooner and get away with it.  If you are not, you just won't. 

You have gotten a lot of good advice and keep asking similar questions.   The basic anwer to all of them is pick a plan and work it consistently.  If you want to do a HIM, run a sprint plan, bridge to an oly plan and then bridge to a HIM  plan. 

Oh  and don't do any tempo run work until you have been consistantly running 30+ miles per week for 6 months. 

Edited by Baowolf 2011-02-19 6:16 PM

In terms of references to back up this statement (I wouldn't call it a claim since its evidenced based), he talks about the various physiologic adaptations of the training in each zone. The adaptations one undergoes in zone 3 are generally suited towards the long-course athlete.

If you respect Skiba's work and read his references, you should give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. Suggesting that he's repeating a fable is disingenuous. You seem to think that you can't make a general statement such as this b/c the zone itself moves based on various factors, or because there is no solid-yellow line designating which where zones start and end. But the fact is that you can and should make such a statement while accounting for these stipulations. Wherever and whatever his zone 3 is, spending a lot of time in it isn't going to give him the greatest return on his Olympic triathlon investment.

OTOH- Last year Friel stated in his blog that Z3 can be useful in Base 2, which might be where OP is in his training.  He also states that Z3 training is useful for intermediate duration events (about 2-7hrs) which may well include duration of OP's Oly.

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/05/should-you-train-in-zone-3.html

In any case I haven't seen any source recommending weeks of training with ONLY Z3 workouts, but a mix of different intensities for best results.

I'm not being at all disingenuous.  And I do respect Skiba, immensely.  Given the extreme generality of the statement that we are disputing, 'evidence' in this case would amount to a study indicating that under all circumstances athletes who spend a lot of time in z3 do worse than athletes who do not.  There will never be a study of that sort.  It is far too general of a claim to try to nail down in a study, which is basically the point I was making.



No.  The zones are what they are.  Nothing I said had anything to do with zones moving (though of course they do move a bit as one's fitness changes).



No, again, nothing I said had anything to do with the fuzzy boundary between zones.  Indeed, the boundaries are not at all fuzzy; they are defined precisely in terms of percentage of some number such as HR at LT or power at LT, or FTP, or take your pick -- there is nothing fuzzy about the zones themselves.  Rather my point had to do (partly, in one of the points I was making) with the fact that those sharp boundaries do not correspond to sharp physiological boundaries.  Skiba himself makes this point quite strongly.



My claim is that the points I made (loose connection between zones and physiological adaptations, multitude of factors that determine what is the best zone for any workout or portion of workout, and others I didn't bother to mention) strongly suggest that very general statements about where one's training should be focused that are based on just one factor (length of goal race), ignoring all others, are not at all helpful here.  Preceding a denial of that claim with "But the fact is" isn't really an argument.



We just don't know that.  There are too many other factors to consider.  I tried to indicate what some of those factors are.  I think Skiba would agree (but if he didn't , then I guess I'd disagree with him).  I agree that for some athletes, at some points in their season, in some conditions, spending a lot of time in z3 is a bad idea.  I do not agree with a blanket statement to the effect that spending a lot of time in z3 is bad unless your goal race for the season is long.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, but please don't assume that because I have a beef with one particular statement in Skiba -- for which I've provided cogent (if, in your view, unconvincing) reasons -- that I'm being disingenuous.  That's one vice I don't have.  (I have others...)

(edited to fix quoting)


Edited by Experior 2011-02-19 8:32 PM

     Again, thanks a lot for all of the input.  I really didn't intend to start up any arguments, just searching for the best advice I can get.  I like what I heard about the long run being less than 50% of the total weekly runs.  
     Also, I am going to research more about the spending more time in zones 2, and four+ and not so much in zone 3 for an oly length. 
     As far as my workoug logs, I just found out the other week that being a free member does not allow me to look back more than a couple of weeks, so I haven't been posting all of my workouts.  
     Thanks again for the advice!  See you at the races.    

I completely agree (so x3?)...  As for the distances, I'm prepping for a fast oly (I hope), and easily plan to get MANY 9+ mile runs in and 37+ mile rides in(15k and 60k).  I'm up to those distances already and I'm still two months out from my race...

I'm a free member and I can look back at all my logs. I love it. Keep logging! And if you are having trouble try asking in the site issues forum. 

OK, I'm going to ammend my initial response here and I've included Jackson's quote because I do believe it has a lot of merit...but I would qualify both of our responses by saying that it depends on WHEN in the periodized training plan you are doing Z2, Z3, Z4, etc.

Being winter time, I'm so accustomed to people posting things like, "I've been doing all my training in Zone 2, when is it OK to add Zone 3 work..." or some variation therein. For most people here, the present and recent past weeks are in a period of general preparation, also referred to by some as "base". While not wantign to get into a debate about semantics, I would like ot put forth that doing training in a healthy mix during general preparation will give you more bang for your training buck (or time). In otherwords, doing some Zone 3 sessions in intervals of 10, 20, 30 or 45 minutes as opposed to a continuous Zone 2 workout for a longer period of time, will give you more stress on your aerobic system, which will do all that good stuff we want to have happen in base, but in a briefer period of training time. You still need to make time to recover in order for that adaptation to occur.

However, as we move to a period of SPECIFIC adaptation (possibly referred to by some as build 1, build2, etc or even base 3), an Olympic Distance triathlete will most definately get more bang for their buck by doing training in Zone 4, and using Zone 1 & 2 for recovery sessions. Zone 3, for a sprint or OLY distance triathlete, may in fact be a "no mans land" training zone...it's not specific enough for the race distance, and it's too hard for recovery.

Note that I'm not saying it won't benefit you but it dependson where in your periodized training plan you place these workouts.

I am a huge fan of mixing up training in all different zones...but hte amount of training in each zone changes as the traiing period moves from general to specific training. In which case, I agree with those saying Z2 & Z4 are good for Oly athletes. But only if you have moved into the specific training period for sprint or oly distance.

I got close to those numbers training for my first OLY last year.  I did multiple 9-10 mile runs and bike rides around 35 miles.  At the time I thought I might be over doing it but I was really enjoying my long workouts on the weekend and I felt like I was recovering very quickly so it wasn't hurting my mid-week workouts.  In retrospect I think it really helped me during the race because I was used to doing longer workouts so the total duration of the race wasn't something new.