Push / Pull Effort

2011-03-13 9:29 PM

in reply to: #3396131

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Push / Pull Effort

FoggyGoggles - 2011-03-13 8:00 PM

I was reading the thread about taking strokes off of your 25 yard distance and thought about my effort in the pool. I have worked with a couple of coaches but never asked a question about the speed of my pull and push through the water. I personally try to use a lot of my strength to accelerate my arms and hands through the water to try to get the maximum speed out of the stroke. I can't say that it's made any wholesale differences that I've noticed... or really watched for to be honest. But I do know that I am breathing hard at 200 yards consistently.

So what your thoughts and approach to hand and arm speed through the water?

All my energy is focused on piercing the water in front of me, anchoring and rotating. I don't spend any conscious effort "pulling" through the water. That tends to detract from qualities that keeping you moving forward with maximum efficiency.

Keeping a hand anchored in the water and rotating while not letting the hand slip requires energy...but the intention is on the rotation and simultaneous spearing with the opposite arm...not with pulling the arm underwater.

blynott

2011-03-14 8:02 AM

in reply to: #3396167

Master

1526

Bolivia, NC

Subject: RE: Push / Pull Effort

AdventureBear - 2011-03-13 10:29 PM All my energy is focused on piercing the water in front of me, anchoring and rotating. I don't spend any conscious effort "pulling" through the water. That tends to detract from qualities that keeping you moving forward with maximum efficiency. Keeping a hand anchored in the water and rotating while not letting the hand slip requires energy...but the intention is on the rotation and simultaneous spearing with the opposite arm...not with pulling the arm underwater.

What exactly do you mean by "rotating"? Rotating your hips? Sometimes when I concentrate on anchoring my arm I feel like I am snaking around my arm while I pull my body around my arm. Does that make any sense??

JeffY

2011-03-14 10:25 AM

in reply to: #3396131

Master

2327

Columbia, TN

Subject: RE: Push / Pull Effort

I can't quite say that a strong, hard pull isn't to be desired...but I will say that the skinny women who have less force in their strongest pull than I do in my weakest pull can still often outswim me.

I've played around with a pull that is no faster than my speed...meaning that I'm pretty much pulling with as little as possible...and I don't slow down much. I think that since water is so thick, that one thing that is very important is conservation of momentum. You really DO NOT want your stroke to consist of decelerations and accelerations.

I find that when I don't pull hard, that I can step up the tempo of my stroke and the 2 offset each other so that I'm using the normal amount of energy (oxygen) yet I think it's more efficient because the faster turnover results in less coast down between strokes.

Play around with that....no real effort being forced against the water, but quicker stroke rate. So how it works out.

tjfry

2011-03-14 10:46 AM

in reply to: #3396806

Expert

2547

The Woodlands, TX

Subject: RE: Push / Pull Effort

JeffY - 2011-03-14 10:25 AM

I can't quite say that a strong, hard pull isn't to be desired...but I will say that the skinny women who have less force in their strongest pull than I do in my weakest pull can still often outswim me.

Think of it more like a pull up. that 12 year old girl isn't as strong as you, but also doesn't have nearly the mass you do, so she's able to do more pull ups. If you are big and strong but those muscles are not purely focused on swimming, that's a good bit of dead weight that you have to bring with you. Just a thought.

Micawber

2011-03-14 10:59 AM

in reply to: #3396131

Lethbridge, Alberta

Bronze member

Subject: RE: Push / Pull Effort

I'm not sure if this is right but lately I've been focusing on using the down kick on the same side, just as I'm starting to pull, to help not only the body rotation but to help accelerate the pull too. The opposite hand is entering then as well, or just about to, but I'm feeling like the kick is helping my pull accelerate more without slipping ... if that makes sense.

Edited by Micawber 2011-03-14 11:02 AM

JeffY

2011-03-14 11:15 AM

in reply to: #3396856

Master

2327

Columbia, TN

Subject: RE: Push / Pull Effort

tjfry - 2011-03-14 10:46 AM

JeffY - 2011-03-14 10:25 AM

Yes, but I think it's less like strength to weight ratio and more like strength to drag ratio. The smaller women are very streamlined and cut through the water better than I do.

If it were weight based and like pull ups I'd be competitive with elite swimmers. But your point is basically right.

2011-03-14 11:25 AM

in reply to: #3396901

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Push / Pull Effort

Micawber - 2011-03-14 9:59 AM

I'm not sure if this is right but lately I've been focusing on using the down kick on the same side, just as I'm starting to pull, to help not only the body rotation but to help accelerate the pull too. The opposite hand is entering then as well, or just about to, but I'm feeling like the kick is helping my pull accelerate more without slipping ... if that makes sense.

Yes, this is exactly right. The rotation creates leverage for the stroke.

2011-03-14 5:12 PM

in reply to: #3396470

Subject: ...

This user's post has been ignored.

2011-03-15 3:53 AM

in reply to: #3396131

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Push / Pull Effort

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnrSr9tYCko

Watch the first 45 seconds of this video (more if you like) where Terry explains the patient lead hand wiating for the body to be ready to rotate & drive the hip forward. At that point the "Pulling" arm moves back using the leverage of body rotation (aided by gravity pulling the recovering arm into the water). Free speed.

blynott

2011-03-15 7:09 AM

in reply to: #3398084

Master

1526

Bolivia, NC

Subject: RE: Push / Pull Effort

AdventureBear - 2011-03-15 4:53 AM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnrSr9tYCkoWatch the first 45 seconds of this video (more if you like) where Terry explains the patient lead hand wiating for the body to be ready to rotate & drive the hip forward. At that point the "Pulling" arm moves back using the leverage of body rotation (aided by gravity pulling the recovering arm into the water). Free speed.

Thanks, that's what I need to work on. I've got the hip rotation down pretty well but my trailing arm is a little slow and I'm not using my kick right. Oh well....back to the pool! Bob

everlong

2011-03-15 8:19 AM

in reply to: #3396131

Expert

1481

Subject: RE: Push / Pull Effort

The way I've started to think of swimming is in terms of torque not speed. It's not a race track so trying to be a Porche doesn't work. It's more like a truck pulling through mud. When my form is good and I'm generating as much power per stroke as I can I'm more efficient and I'm conserving energy and keeping a lower stroke count. When I'm off my stroke count goes up and I'm going no faster but I'm not as efficient and I'm using a lot more energy. When I'm really on I can pull a 100 in @1:30 which is fast for me and I'm going 20 strokes per length. When I do this I'm not gassed at the end of the 100. Conversely when I'm off I'll maintain that speed but my stroke count can reach 24 and I'm semi-hypoxic hitting the wall. Over the course of .9-2.4 this becomes exponentially more important.

I make no pretense about being a swimming expert so I hope that makes sense.

tjfry

2011-03-15 9:02 AM

in reply to: #3396942

Expert

2547

The Woodlands, TX

Subject: RE: Push / Pull Effort

JeffY - 2011-03-14 11:15 AM

tjfry - 2011-03-14 10:46 AM

JeffY - 2011-03-14 10:25 AM

Yes, but I think it's less like strength to weight ratio and more like strength to drag ratio. The smaller women are very streamlined and cut through the water better than I do.

If it were weight based and like pull ups I'd be competitive with elite swimmers. But your point is basically right.

I agree that we are saying about the same thing. In a weightless environment like water, drag essentially is weight.

2011-03-15 9:30 AM

in reply to: #3398084

Subject: ...

This user's post has been ignored.

2011-03-15 3:28 PM

in reply to: #3398404

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: Push / Pull Effort

FoggyGoggles - 2011-03-15 8:30 AM

AdventureBear - 2011-03-15 3:53 AM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnrSr9tYCko Watch the first 45 seconds of this video (more if you like) where Terry explains the patient lead hand wiating for the body to be ready to rotate & drive the hip forward. At that point the "Pulling" arm moves back using the leverage of body rotation (aided by gravity pulling the recovering arm into the water). Free speed.

Good video AB. Made a lot of sense. It also reminded me of why my golf game is so bad... lots to think about.

The key is to only think about one new thing at a time. practice it for 5, 10, 30 minutes...however long you feel you are still practicing that ONe thing well. Then move on to something else. It's normal for the "new" thing to fall apart when you stop focusing on it, but by repeated short exposures and focus on each new thing, you'll gradually imprint that as your new motor memory and start doing it without concentrating on it. You can keep this process going in swimming and golf for a long, long time...a lifetime really. Identify your biggest weakness and begin a plan to focus on and correct it. MOve on in small increments, overlapping a handful of new things at a time. As they start to stick, things may even feel different as you "chunk" 2 new swim thoughts into one movement. But the only way this happens is with active concentration on your technique and a plan of implementation.