for those that race with power (Page 2)

Why isn't training a "test" in itself?  I rarely ever test but, as long as I'm riding regularly (most of the time), I can tell you what my FT is within 5-10 watts (which is about about how close I can get through most testing).

Sprints: If I'm not gasping like a fish out of water, I'm not going hard enough.  No consideration for power until the race is over.  Output typically ends up being at or above FTP.  I'd have to dig deep to find it, but I seem to remember a study that showed that going all out is faster overall than easing off on the bike on shorter races.  In order to see an increase in run speed, you have to sacrifice more time on the bike than you'll gain on the run.

Olys:  If I can talk, I'm not going hard enough.  It's not quite long enough for me to target and ride to an average, so I go more by feel, and that feeling should be just a little bit easier than an FTP effort.  You are doing 2x20 @ FTP (or similar) as a staple workout every week, aren't you?

If you are off in your training by 25-30w, then you boogered your last "test" and have been trianing too easy since then.  If your FT is moving up by 15% over 8 weeks, your trianing zones should ideally be moving up during that time too.  So, you should "know" your FT is higher becuase when you do (say) 2x20' in a workout, you are hitting numbers 10% higher than you "should be".  Generally, using what you can do routinely during long intervals in training to estimate FT is better than testing (unless your test is a 1hr TT).

That's okay (although I think they will develop that feel, regardless of how "complex" their workouts are).  I was merely questioning why one should need to test so often.  Especially with the suggestion that riding without a test made it a "waste of time".

If you're not doing at least one workout per week with relatively long intervals at or close to FTP, I'd say you're overthinking it.  If you are, as mentioned, it should be pretty easy to determine when you start exceeding your expecations for those intervals.

I totally agree Johnny, the more data and experience you have, the easier it is to estimate FTP. But for someone starting out, you would have to agree that an initial few tests would start them in the right direction to structuring their workouts correctly. (as far as power levels)

You didn't say that.  Someone else did and I replied to them.

If you're not riding with power consistently (as in your CT example), then it's much harder to "know".  Of course, in your example there is a HIGH likelihood that the initial test will be too low.  The ending test will then show great improvement.  It's an excellent sales technique for the CT class, though. 

I'm certainly not discouraging people from developing some base lines through testing (or testing every month if that's what they like to do).  And the tests are generally much easier than doing a 1hr TT. 

First off....I know relating power to RPE is in general useless....that's why I wrote I didn't really have a point.

Secondly, I don't understand what you mean "4 months without having a powermeter and no test is just wasting time".  There are plenty of people, elite athletes included that don't use power and seem to be improving just fine.

Thirdly, you didn't answer my question.  I was trying to find out how close to a race does one perform their most recent test.  Same as asking how long is your test and FTP valid for.  Are you saying 8-10 weeks?  I sort of disagree with that as well.  I have seen a 11 watt improvement over a month.  So theoretically my FTP could be off 20 watts by the time my race came around if I use your method.  (not saying I continually improve 10 watts per month, but that WOULD be awesome).

I don't think that everyone needs to "test" (as in a 20 minute FTP test) simply because it's not necessary to base your training off of your FTP.

There is really nothing special about your FTP.  It's got this mystical allure about it that it's somehow more valuable than your 10 minute power, 30 minute power, or 90 minute power.  While I agree that using your estimated 60 minute power to taylor your workouts makes sense...it's not like you're going to be a blind bat if you don't use it...and use simply use your training results. 

For example...I may not know that my FTP is 255 if I didn't test.  But if I go out on a interval ride, and do sets of 5 minute efforts at 265 watts with a little left in the tank, then I can easily adjust my training to shoot for 270 watts the next time.

I first got my powertap in May '10.  Tested 2 weeks later and got a estimated FTP of 235.  Did a lot of riding throught the summer, and basically adjusted my workouts like the example above.  I didn't need to retest to know that I needed to step up my intervals.  Retesting, IMO, would have been a waste of time because I would have had to rest the day before and after to tell me what I already knew.

I didn't retest again until earlier this month.  Based of my training, I figured my FTP increased by about 15-20 watts, and my test proved that as my new estimated FTP became 252.

IMO, using power gives you TONS of data if you train with it all the time.  And if you're doing hard intervals during training, it really reduces the amount of testing you need to do.  Now if you're doing most of your riding below threshold level...then yeah...I can see how you may have no idea what your FTP might be.

YMMV

Yeah...sort of see your point.  Testing for me gives me a finite number for "amount improved" as well.  Hopefully it will also show me my peak during competitive season as well.  Like you I can taylor my workouts based on performance.  My measure of performance from my FTP test will give me my ranges of physiological "strain" or my training zones.  Training the zones in a cycle is what has helped me produce results.

The allure is that it's a time period where you're heart rate is already up and you're able to produce some solid lactate acid.  In my opinion, the 10 min power isn't worth it.  I've tried this and can achieve some serious variation on any given day.  I agree about the 30 min or 90 min power...but that can be fairly accurately extrapolated from your FTP.

I also like the 20 min test because when I do intervals, the longest one is 20 minutes.

Look again -- he was saying that IF you ride with a PM, 4 months is a long time to go without testing.  Seems you agree with that.

I personally find that I do enough hard intervals of various lengths that I'm getting decent information just by letting the software hunt around for my best intervals.

Both. I do the training using the PM to make it more efficient, track improvements and performance modeling. Also, it has helped developed my RPE greatly which while it comes natural to me running, on the bike was all over the place.

For racing, I know where I am supposed to be so I keep an eye on it from time to time to avoid making mistakes specially in long course races. For shorter stuff, I pay 'a bit' less attention to it but it is a time trial event including swimming, biking and running; if I go out too hard on the bike I won't be able to run to my potential on the run (< 5% of my open running times) so I want to make sure I am within my limits. This is the 'art' of pacing with a PM and RPE; knowing when to listen to each.

That said, you should have an idea based on your Critical Power of what you should be able to do for a 20-40K bike after a 0.5 to 0.9 mile swim and followed by a 5-10k run. For a Sprint I might be at my CP while for an Oly I might be 5-10% under it. (that's what works for me, for another athlete something slightly different might work)

I don't completely agree.  60 minutes is not an arbitrary number.  At least if you believe Coggan et al., the effort that you can produce for around 60 minutes is closely connected to certain physiological facts about you, one of them being your critical power (in Skiba's sense of the term).

FTP = the maximum power you can average during a 60 min all out effort; FTP does NOT equal to a 20 min maximal effort and taking a % of it. FTP or Critical Power (CP) ARE special metrics, specially because it nicely correlates with your maximum lactate steady state; very important metric that can be used to track your training and model performance. From a physiological perspective, FTP or CP help you track a series of physiological process rather simple (i.e. glycogen utilization) hence it is an important number to know. 

As far a testing often regardless of what protocol an athlete chooses to use (i.e. 20MP and use 95% to estimate FTP or20MP and 5MP and use CP or 2x20MP, etc.) it might or might not be helpful if you know what to do with the data (pacing, fueling, performance modeling, etc. )and depending on your training conditions (i.e. riding indoors vs outdoors).

Certainly the more experience you gather the lees you might have the need to test often but if you already decided to invest in that tool, then why not make the most out of it? you might test less often that others, but still testing can give you hints about your fitness improvements, help you adjust the plan when something is not working or to address weaknesses making you an even better athlete.

Ok...I was exagerrating a bit.  I do believe there is a lot of value to knowing your FTP.  My point simply was that if you never tested for it...it's not like you would be totally clueless about what your power profile is, and how you should structure your workouts.  If you want to test what your FTP is every 4-6 weeks, that's fine.  I'm just saying that you're likely testing to find out something you already know. 

KathyG - Read books (Allen/Coggan and Skiba) and the goals for sprint and Olys IFs (% of FTP) I can't hit. Doing sprint at 100% of FTP then running 5K probably means your FTP is off or you are stronger runner than I am which is easy as I'm not good runner. From doing it over time I know my body and what I can do on the bike and still run well so that is what I work with. Part of the fun of training and racing with power is to figure out what works for you.

>>> This is a great point Kathy and something overlooked. Anytime I give someone a general guideline I remind them, in the end is nothing more than a general guideline! When setting up a pacing strategy for any event from a 5K run to an IM one have to consider the current fitness level and strengths for the athlete. If an athlete will take over 90min to complete a sprint distance tri, then i would be making him/her a disservices suggesting to pace at 100% of FTP or CP simple because the duration they'll spend on the course is longer than someone riding in a shorter period of time. 

and how long have you been riding?  have you ever tested in the past?

here is how i look at it:

after almost 1 yr with pm, i can load my data to a software and get a good idea analyzing last 2-3 months what my FTP is without doing the test also.  but what would be the point of having a sophisticated tool that i spent so much money on.

if you have software like golden cheetah it will spit your CP value with out testing also.