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2011-04-14 3:04 PM

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Subject: Purchasing speed by buying a bike

Right, you can't get magically better by spending money, it's all about saddle time and putting in the work and all that nonsense.  No such thing as magic bullets or free lunches.  Grind and sweat.  That said...

Wouldn't I notice a big difference in speed/ability to ride more if I upgraded from a hybrid to a decent entry-level road bike?  The only money burning a hole in my pocket right now is a few quarters, but if I could dredge up a few hundred to buy a used bike, it would seem a jump in class like that would really have an effect.

I don't know whether I should hope you say yes or no.



2011-04-14 3:08 PM
in reply to: #3447190

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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike

Yes......the difference would be seen mostly in aerodynamics and weight.....as well as rolling resistance.  So there are significant gains to be made by upgrading to even the most entry level of road bikes (Trek 1.2, 2.1, etc.)

If you put Lance Armstrong on a hybrid he could not win the TdF.......if you put him on a Trek 2.1 he'd have a much better shot.



Edited by btompkins0112 2011-04-14 3:09 PM
2011-04-14 3:09 PM
in reply to: #3447190


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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike
I just upgraded from a hybrid (Trek 7.2FX) to a Trek Speed Concept 2.5.  My best ride on my hybrid averaged 15mph, I now average over 18mph with a lower effort on the new bike.  I did a similar loop today, used to take me 2 hours finished in 1:35.
2011-04-14 3:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike
sdejan - 2011-04-14 4:04 PM

Right, you can't get magically better by spending money, it's all about saddle time and putting in the work and all that nonsense.  No such thing as magic bullets or free lunches.  Grind and sweat.  That said...

Wouldn't I notice a big difference in speed/ability to ride more if I upgraded from a hybrid to a decent entry-level road bike?  The only money burning a hole in my pocket right now is a few quarters, but if I could dredge up a few hundred to buy a used bike, it would seem a jump in class like that would really have an effect.

I don't know whether I should hope you say yes or no.

I would say in general, yes.  I just did the same thing...went from a Gary Fisher hybrid to a Fuji road bike.  I would say I'm 1-2 mph faster right now, but I'm still learning to ride in the much more aggressive position that a road bike has (and this road bike in particular has pretty aggressive geometry).  I had also made the hybrid as fast as possible, with road tires and clip-on aerobars.

2011-04-14 3:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike
I went from a cheap hybrid to an entry level Trek roadie - got about 3 mph out of it.   And while I FOUGHT for that 12 mph on the old bike, the 15 mph was a breeze.   And it only got faster from there when I bought aerobars.
2011-04-14 3:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike


2011-04-14 3:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike

I upgraded from a hybrid to a 5 year old used Bianchi road bike (aluminum frame).  Paid around $200 for it off of craigslist.  I'd estimate approximately 2-3 mph avg improvement immediately.

It was worth it.

2011-04-14 3:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike

BikerGrrrl - 2011-04-14 3:17 PM I went from a cheap hybrid to an entry level Trek roadie - got about 3 mph out of it.   And while I FOUGHT for that 12 mph on the old bike, the 15 mph was a breeze.   And it only got faster from there when I bought aerobars.

That's it exactly - I go 12-15 with an average closer to 12.  It's hard work and tough to believe it's only my fitness getting in the way (not that I don't need to build - a lot).  For training maybe it doesn't matter - whether you go 10 miles or 15, the same amount of effort will net you the same benefit. But obviously for a race it matters.

I can hear my checking account weeping in the distance...

2011-04-14 3:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike
I went from a Schwinn comfort bike to a Trek 2.1 and see a huge difference. So much lighter, less rolling resistance and of course aerodynamically better. I enjoy riding it and have increased my distance quite a bit more.
2011-04-14 3:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike

Here's a counterpoint to all the "a road bike is the only way to go" input.

When I was bike racing, we rode year-round. I had an old mountain bike that I turned into what I called an "urban assault bike". I put drop bars on it, with standard road brake levers and bar end shifters, 1.5" slick tires at 70 psi, and full fenders (and I do mean FULL fenders), all parts I had laying around from other bike projects. And I had no problems keeping up on those wet winter rides with my team mates.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are ways you can modify the bike you have inexpensively and most likely gain 90% of what you'd get with a road bike. It'll still be a bit heavier, but we've gone over the "weight issue in triathlon" many times -- it's not that big of a deal.

2011-04-14 3:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike

In racing sports- every racing sport- the famous Carroll Shelby quote applies:

"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

That said, racing cars (Carroll Shelby is a race car designer) is much more equipment dependent than triathlons.

Or is it...

If you look at the multi-hundred million dollar budget of a Formula 1 team and consider the team will spend literally millions to gain a tenth of a second per lap then it become analogous to our sport.

A good basic bike with a proper fit gets you most of the way the there. Of course, the majority of speed eminates from the riders' fitness. The biggest gains are almost always fitness gains. But fitness has an attendent cost too: Time, power meters, coaches, training camps, nutritional products, massages, etc. If you devoted $10,000 to those resources there would likely be a measureable improvement in your performance if you're adequately motivated.

How much difference can a bike make? Tough to say. Depends on what you're coming off of and going on to. I'll always quote the party line that the single largest improvement opportunity is through good bike fit (after fitness, of course). So that is where I would start- with a good fit and position. From there, look firstly at what you're wearing: Is your on-bike race uniform aerodynamic? That's key- and less expensive than a new bike and aerodynamic wheels.

It's possible to write volumes on this topic and the subject is a moving target as our ability to understand what makes an athlete fast on a bike improves. I will suggest there is general consensus on fit and position being at least significant, if not critical.



2011-04-14 3:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike
I used a Trek 7200 hybrid for my first duathlon and averaged 19.6 mph for 10 mi......I now have a FELT B16, and have absolutely no idea how fast im going (havent decided on watch/computer yet...or holding out for CASH FOR 310XT)......but I am definately moving faster!!!! I will get back to you on that...but to address your question, without a doubt you will be faster
2011-04-14 5:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike
sdejan - 2011-04-14 3:28 PM

That's it exactly - I go 12-15 with an average closer to 12.  It's hard work and tough to believe it's only my fitness getting in the way (not that I don't need to build - a lot).  For training maybe it doesn't matter - whether you go 10 miles or 15, the same amount of effort will net you the same benefit. But obviously for a race it matters.

I can hear my checking account weeping in the distance...

After my first race, when I was on everyone elses right, I got a new bike that same day.  I can't say how much faster I am going, I'll just say there is actually wind in my hair when I ride, even when it isn't there when I stop.

Looking forward to my second race.... maybe I won't be dead last in my AG.

2011-04-14 6:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike
I was in the same situation as you last fall. For what it's worth, my bike IS a Trek 1.2, which I guess is about as "entry-level" as you can get. Then again, so am I as a biker!  In October I did an Oly on a rental Trek mtn. bike (not road tires) and did 1:34 for 40 km, about 16 mph. That was a hard effort--I was doing 90 RPM in the highest gear. Among the women, I was 7th for the swim, 69th for the bike, and 5th for the run, for some perspective! My hard training rides at the time (on a similar bike with road tires) were about 15 mph.  Since then I haven't done a tri, but training on my road bike, 15-16 mph is now a moderate effort, rather than a hard one. My "race effort" work is at about 18-20 mph. The upper end of that range is still a struggle, and I'm not sure I could hold it for 40k and have anything left for the run. I'll be doing a sprint and an Oly in May so should have a better idea then, but my guess is, for me, the 1.2 vs. a mountain bike set-up is worth only about 3 mph. Maybe 2 mph if comparing with a hybrid. Frankly I'm a bit disappointed in this, but guessing most of the fault lies with my (lack of) bike training and experience. However, I'm sure it varies according to the actual bikes and your fitness--I have good endurance and cardio fitness but the power/strength aspect of riding does not come naturally.
2011-04-14 8:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike

Tom Demerly. - 2011-04-14 3:52 PM  How much difference can a bike make? Tough to say. Depends on what you're coming off of and going on to. I'll always quote the party line that the single largest improvement opportunity is through good bike fit (after fitness, of course). So that is where I would start- with a good fit and position. From there, look firstly at what you're wearing: Is your on-bike race uniform aerodynamic? That's key- and less expensive than a new bike and aerodynamic wheels.

Tom, it was partly your excellent thread on "our biggest delimiter" that made me question whether a new bike would make that much difference - that and many other people's observation that it is the engine that counts.  FWIW, I'm currently on a Trek 7100 that I love for its comfort and ride.  The LBS made a few adjustments but I've never been fitted.  I'd be going to whatever looked good on craigslist.  The plan would be to go to the LBS, get recommendations on size, and then watch craigslist to see what pops up.  Then pay for a tune-up, and yes, a fitting.  Jeez this is adding up.

Clothes are aerodynamic except possibly the windbreaker.  Won't be an issue as the weather warms up.

If you buy a new bike, do they fit it to you as part of the price? 

2011-04-14 9:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike

Tom Demerly. - 2011-04-14 1:52 PM

I'll always quote the party line that the single largest improvement opportunity is through good bike fit (after fitness, of course).

The party line is often propaganda.



2011-04-14 9:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike
A lot of the change in speed will be the gearing, too, which will allow you the opportunity for faster speeds easier...in my opinion.
2011-04-14 9:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike

Beside any improvement in speed or any other technical advantage that you may get with a new bike, the biggest benefit will be that if you are happy with it and you like it you will ride more and harder.  And that will make you faster.....

2011-04-15 10:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike

Yes of course, there are a lot of people around here that will tell you its all about the motor and not the bike.  But if you take a 300hp motor and put it in a 10000lb delivery truck its not going to go fast or handle well. Take the same 300hp motor and put it in a 3000lb sports car and you are going much faster. Its just a fact of physics.

 

That doesnt mean that you can get away with not training. You still need to work hard to develop the 300hp.

2011-04-15 11:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike

abqtj - 2011-04-14 10:30 PM A lot of the change in speed will be the gearing, too, which will allow you the opportunity for faster speeds easier...in my opinion.

x2...I topped out on my hybrid on downhills all the time.  Not so much with the 50/11 gear ratio on the roadie.

2011-04-15 12:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike

Your gear won't suddenly turn you into Macca or Kemper, but better gear will raise the ceiling of what is possible for you to do.  You just have to be willing to push yourself to achieve those higher possibilities.

Bad Gear + Hard Work = Good

Good Gear + No Work = Waste of Money

Good Gear + Hard Work = SUCCESS



2011-04-15 1:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike
RChung - 2011-04-14 9:23 PM

Tom Demerly. - 2011-04-14 1:52 PM

I'll always quote the party line that the single largest improvement opportunity is through good bike fit (after fitness, of course).

The party line is often propaganda.

:popcorn:

2011-04-15 2:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike
sand101 - 2011-04-15 11:35 AM
RChung - 2011-04-14 9:23 PM

Tom Demerly. - 2011-04-14 1:52 PM

I'll always quote the party line that the single largest improvement opportunity is through good bike fit (after fitness, of course).

The party line is often propaganda.

:popcorn:

Not that big a deal. Maybe if you're starting from a sedentary couch potato, but otherwise if you've been training semi-seriously for a couple of seasons most folks have already reaped a large hunk of all the fitness gains they're ever going to see. If you fall into that group the gains you see (in cycling) from reducing drag of various sources is going to be larger than what you're going to get from fitness gains. That's especially true if (like the OP) your starting point is a hybrid bike. It's not unusual to see a (normal-sized) guy on a hybrid bike with a CdA of .35+ (and Crr > .006 to boot). Put him in a good position on a top TT bike with good tires/tubes and you're looking at a CdA < .25; top guys way less. You'd have to be hoping to reap a pretty big gain in fitness to top that. 

2011-04-15 2:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike
Don't let anyone tell you that speed can't be "bought" The only caveat is that the amount that can be bough become a lot less when you have a strong engine. Keep in mind that even small differences get multiplied over a long course.
2011-04-15 2:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Purchasing speed by buying a bike

Meulen - 2011-04-15 12:24 PM  Keep in mind that even small differences get multiplied over a long course.

Right, but another way to think of it is to standardize for distance by looking at savings per km. For most courses, whether long course or short, the bike leg is 4x longer than the run. So, if you save 1 sec/km on the bike, that's equivalent to running 4 sec/km faster. The difference between a typical hybrid bike position and a good TT bike position can be more than 10 sec/km at the same power. Your run pace would have to improve by 40 sec/km (= 1 min/mile) just to match that.

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