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2011-04-28 3:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Best strength training for biking?
GLC1968 - 2011-04-28 3:08 PM

gsmacleod - 2011-04-28 12:44 PM
GLC1968 - 2011-04-28 3:25 PM I have a very hard time accepting this.  If there is no strength component to cycling, why would biking hills make you stronger?  Why would track cyclists have huge, huge thighs?  Why do sprinters have different muscle distribution than KOM guys?

I understand that lifting weights is not the way to get faster on the bike.  I'm not arguing that.  But as I bike more (with coached power) my legs are absolutely getting stronger and bigger. I can see it.  I can measure it.  How can there be no strength component to biking?   

(I swear that I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just trying to understand something that makes no intuitive sense to me)

If you look at the graph i posted earlier in the thread, you will the random scatter that occurs when strength is plotted versus endurance. This is because the force requirements for endurance cycling are very low when compared to a healthy adult's leg strength that being stronger has no correlation to endurance. While it seems intuitive that building strength wouuld help with endurance, in practice this does not seem to be the case. As to a track cyclist, they have huge thighs because they are sprinters which relies on the ability to produce forces much higher for very short periods of time so being stronger is much more likely to be a valuable component of their training program. Shane

Ok, I get that.  I've seen that graph before.  But I haven't see the study it came from and I'm going to guess that it was done on 1) men and 2) endurance athletes that are previously trained/competiting/etc.

As I said earlier - I'm not suggesting that squats or lunges are going to make endurance athletes faster.  I totally agree/buy into/understand that cycling makes cyclists faster.  No argument here.

What I would like to know is at the beginner level (and I'm talking purely cycling, not swimming or running), can strength specific workouts improve biking ability.  If I had the time and money, I'd do the study myself looking at totally untrained people, women with no previous cycling experience, and the elderly.  These are the types of people where I've seen it make a difference (deferring to JK - causality and correlation are two different things!).  I'd like to to know if any studies like this have been done.  I'm sure they haven't because I can't think of anyone who would have a vested interest in a study like that. 



Here's some geeky muscle physiology 101. You've probably heard of slow-twitch and fast-twitch fibers. There are actually 3 main type of fibers: Type IIB, which are the "fastest" twitch fibers, Type IIA, which are "intermediate" fibers, and Type I, the slow-twitch. Type IIB fibers provide the most force and strength but can only work for about 10 seconds before they "need a rest." This is the way it is and no amount of training can turn Type IIB fibers into endurance fibers. Type IIA fibers are actually responsive to training. In a strength-trained athlete, they can act more like IIB fibers and provide lots of fiber, while in an endurance-trained athlete they can act more like the Type I endurance fibers. But they can never completely become endurance fibers. So, in endurance sports, the Type I fibers are used the majority of the time, except perhaps during a final sprint.

Most studies on strength training and endurance sports have looked at maximal strength training. Maximal strength training targets the Type IIB and IIA fibers, which simply do not contribute much during endurance activities. The Type I fibers don't really come into play until after you reach 15 reps on an exercise. This is why some endurance coaches advocate high rep sets - to target the Type I fibers. The weight needs to be decreased because both Type II fibers have dropped out and are no longer contributing to force production. It should go without saying that Type I fibers alone cannot produce nearly as much force as all three types of fibers working together. But, the Type I fibers can produce force and can gain strength just like the Type II.

So the question becomes, does it make sense to high reps to strengthen the Type I? Don't want to get into this. I guess the consensus is that if you're going to spend time in the weight room doing 20, 30, even 50 rep sets, you're better off using that time to ride hills or sprint intervals where you get a more sport specific strength workout. The other problem with doing high rep sets is that they suck real bad. It's very tempting during a high rep set to pause after every few reps to take a little break. However, these breaks may last just long enough to allow the Type IIA fibers to recover and contribute to the set. In that case, you're not stressing just the Type I fibers and you've lost the benefit of a high rep set. Much different on a tough hill climb where you really can't just stop.

Having said all that, I have noticed that doing some very high rep sets helps build local muscular endurance and helps build mental toughness. So yeah, I plan to add some to my training.


2011-04-28 4:25 PM
in reply to: #3472018

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Subject: RE: Best strength training for biking?
GLC1968 - 2011-04-28 5:08 PM

Ok, I get that.  I've seen that graph before.  But I haven't see the study it came from and I'm going to guess that it was done on 1) men and 2) endurance athletes that are previously trained/competiting/etc.


It's not from a study but data provided by a coach on a group of athletes that he was working with; not sure if it was a mix of genders but it was a mix of abilities for endurance track focused riders.

He also posted a follow up plot that I think is also very telling, as seen below:



What I would like to know is at the beginner level (and I'm talking purely cycling, not swimming or running), can strength specific workouts improve biking ability.


It is likely that in completely untrained individuals, their cycling performance may increase slightly from a weight training regime but I would expect that the improvement would taper off very quickly and that it would be far less effective than an equal time spent riding.

Just for some numbers, if we assume a beginner with a very poor pedal stroke (only applying power over half the pedal stroke - 90* each leg) then the following approximate forces would be required:

100W - 120N
150W - 180N
200W - 240N

Since it would be unlikely that even the most poorly coordinated cyclist would apply power in this fashion, this gives us a rough idea of the maximum force needed to ride at these wattages.

Shane
2011-04-28 5:21 PM
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2011-04-28 5:58 PM
in reply to: #3467526

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Subject: RE: Best strength training for biking?
Kido - 2011-04-26 3:07 PM A stonger core helps every aspect...  Just another thought.


x2

The hours of cycling will improve your efficiency, but you still need a strong foundation. Plyometrics work too
 
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