Swim Speed (Page 2)

Yeah, because we know to be a triathlete you have to be a crappy swimmer, right?  :54 for a 100 is nothing special as a swimmer.  It does require significant swimming skills, I'll grant you that.  There is no reason a triathlete can't be an excellent swimmer.  

I saw Moses swim three weeks ago.  He is incredible and awesome and awe inspiring.  I don't think it is valid to compare anyone to him.  Plus, hardly any great swimmer starts late anymore.  Most are in the water by 6-8 years.  

I just wish someone would tell me how a swimmer is supposed to ever be any good at running.  Water and land seem incompatible.

im going to say, 98% of triathletes will not be able to do a 54s 100 from a push.  and heres why:

-lack of good turns
-bad streamlines
-no kick
-dolphin kick usually isnt taught to triathletes 
-being good at swimming is often detrimental to running and cycling where watts/kg is extremely important and swimmers usually have a good deal of upper body mass.  

I agree with this, great points.  But, you forgot the most important point, that being:

 - triathlete overuse of toys which does nothing for fast swimming (except load sets with fins, which no triathlete ever does anyway)

Say someone does a reasonably fast 100 SCY sprint (1:00) from a push, open turns, no SDKs.  With the addition of a block start, flip turns, and a couple SDKs at the wall, what kind of time savings do you expect?  I'm curious as to what the typical tri swimmer loses in a pure pool swim sense.

And is there such a thing as a McMillan type swimming calculator?  I haven't ever done an all out 1650, but do have some shorter times and would like to guesstimate.

I would argue the above scenario does not exist in the real world, or, if it does, by only a few very talented swimmers.  Flip turns alone in a 100 would be 2-4 seconds, a dive is 1-3 seconds, SDKs (if done right) another 1-2.  So, you are probably looking at a swimmer who can go sub :50 probably. But, the thing to keep in mind is a swimmer who goes sub :50 is most likely going to have great walls, great start and good SDKs so the times might be more inflated.

I might give this a shot in the next week for fun and report back.  Interesting experiment.  If I feel the urge to put myself in hypoxic agony I'll let you know.  But, considering I'm training now for a 4.4 mile swim my top speed is terrible.

Going off on a tangent:

I come from a sprinter's background, both in swimming and running.   Now that I am training to go longer in both running and swimming, I am still doing sprint work in both. ( Sprinting as required by a high level soccer ref, and the occasional masters swim meet.)  And the distance training has not adversely affected my sprint speeds.  If anything it is making them easier.     Maybe not any quicker, but definitely easier. 

I have had the exact opposite experience.  I train distance (4K+ up to 7K, 4-5 X a week) and it has absolutely affected my top end sprint speed.  I am at least 1-2.5 seconds off my best 50 and 100 times.  I do train sprint every now and again just to break up the distance.  

The old adage is true, to swim fast you have to swim fast.  Probably true for running also, but I chose to ignore it there.

Disagree completely.  A person who can do a sub 1:00 100 meter, be it SC or LC, is a damn good swimmer and will kill the swim portion of a tri.  Of course, sad but true, being a great swimmer means next to nothing in a tri.  A person this fast will have the discipline to back off their top speed and go a very fast cruise pace for whatever the tri distance swim is.  I've seen it hundreds of times.

having a swimming background gave me:

-deep rooted work ethic
-ability to swim <6000yrds a week and finish FOP on the swim
-years of aerobic training
-understanding the importance of aerodynamics in cycling

i would say most top ITU pros come from a swimming background and quickly pick up the run and bike.   

I thought this was a beginner forum.  Sure, ITU pros are great, they are professionals.  For the rest of us with jobs, kids, spouses and a life it can be hard.  I swim train with a few pros and they haven't picked up anything quickly, they work their fannies off.

lets all hold hands, not discuss important topics, nor pursue speed?

I have no idea what you mean.

Isn't it more important what pace you can hold for 1500m (or whatever) without trashing yourself for the other two events, as opposed to flat-out 100m speed? My best 100m is about 1:21 or 1:22 (I guess yards would be 1:12-1:14?) but I sure don't swim that fast for a 1500! I can do 100 sets with about 20 sec. rest at 1:31ish for quite a while. I can do 1500m in the pool in under 26 minutes and keep my heart rate at 110 or lower--very helpful for a tri swim. Usually good enough for FOP but not first woman out of the water. In my view the "feel" of the long swim is totally different from the sprint--I know I kick a lot less, definitely breathe a lot more!