General Discussion Triathlon Talk » What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'? Rss Feed  
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2011-06-07 8:51 AM
in reply to: #3536393

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Lafayette, CO
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?
KarmannGhia - 2011-06-07 5:56 AM
gvey - 2011-06-07 12:33 AM
Karibu - 2011-06-06 1:54 PM  

As a side note, if your logs are correct, any run course will be challenging. 

Best post of the thread!

You don't know me.  You don't know the life challenges I overcome to train.  You don't know the external pressures I have faced to stay on track this year.  You don't know the injuries that have kept me from training.  You don't know the reasons I decided not to drop out and at least try.  You do appear to have obviously missed the point of the thread.  You do appear to have totally ignored my admission that I was not in my best condition.

I am comfortable with myself.  A couple of hundred yards from the finish I cam upon a competitor obviously stuggling.  I asked her if she was OK, offered to jog in with her.  She assured me she was OK and that she would walk in.  I told her I'd wait for her.  She crossed the finish line shortly after me and hugged me in appreciation.  I am comfortable with myself and why I positively participate in BT.  Look at what you just posted and what inspired you to do so.  Why you are here?

Would someone please lock or take down this thread?  It serves no purpose.

Woah!  He didn't say anything mean just stated a fact.  Someone can go look at my logs and probably say that part of the reason I had a hard race last week was because I need more mileage.  Yep, I do (and I've been consistently training 4 days a week since March).   But I make a choice through May that skiing is more important to me that running.  It's not a personal attack so don't take it that way.  People here know that we all make choices about how we spend our time.  Sometimes it benefits our training, sometimes it doesn't.  For me, my summer training plan starts today and I know my coach is going to kick my arse. 



2011-06-07 9:43 AM
in reply to: #3536393

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2011-06-07 10:35 AM
in reply to: #3534865

Veteran
223
100100
Arlington, VA
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?

I reacted impulsively this morning upon reading your post, gvey.  I should have let it go.  I wish I was surprised that your response leaves me no urge whatsoever to apologize for my tone with you, but I'll man up and do it anyway.  Please accept my apology for reacting harshly to your post.  I hope you will take this opportunity to positively engage with me.

Please ignore any other uses of words like ‘too hard’, ‘fair,’ ‘unfair,’ or ‘reasonable’ as have been previously used in this thread.  Please accept my stipulation that for a variety of reasons that my training this year has been lacking, that I probably should have dropped out, and that I should not be surprised that the course turned me to rubble. 

I’m going to try one last time to see if I can direct the question in a manner that gets at the question I was trying to address.  I am trying to write a race report so that others later can read it and perhaps glean information from it as I certainly have done reading other’s race reports.  I arrived at Salem to find a run leg that seemed to me to be disproportionately difficult for the billing of the race and the other legs of the course.  Have you or anyone else ever had such an experience?  Would you or anyone else please share them with me so that they might inform my own race report and how I might describe my own experience?

2011-06-07 10:48 AM
in reply to: #3536393

Master
2477
2000100100100100252525
Oceanside, California
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?
KarmannGhia - 2011-06-07 4:56 AM
gvey - 2011-06-07 12:33 AM
Karibu - 2011-06-06 1:54 PM  

As a side note, if your logs are correct, any run course will be challenging. 

Best post of the thread!

You don't know me.  You don't know the life challenges I overcome to train.  You don't know the external pressures I have faced to stay on track this year.  You don't know the injuries that have kept me from training.  You don't know the reasons I decided not to drop out and at least try.  You do appear to have obviously missed the point of the thread.  You do appear to have totally ignored my admission that I was not in my best condition.

I am comfortable with myself.  A couple of hundred yards from the finish I cam upon a competitor obviously struggling.  I asked her if she was OK, offered to jog in with her.  She assured me she was OK and that she would walk in.  I told her I'd wait for her.  She crossed the finish line shortly after me and hugged me in appreciation.  I am comfortable with myself and why I positively participate in BT.  Look at what you just posted and what inspired you to do so.  Why you are here?

Would someone please lock or take down this thread?  It serves no purpose.

 

Seriously?!?!

I just re-read your original post several times to make sure that I did not miss anything.

You are in the cross-hairs because you posted on an internet triathlon forum for the masses to assist you in writing a negative review on an event where you wanted to blame the event/organizer instead of your lack of preparation and/or recon.

In less 5 minutes, I found plenty of reviews, the course map which could be then Google-earthed, satellite mapped, terrain mapped (not by google).

If you wanted to spend 10 minutes, you could have checked map my ride or a zillion other references.

People responded directly to this original post based in how you presented your self.

 

We have all been there.

That is why we write reviews that say "I underestimated" "I was not prepared for" "I had assumed...."

 

Now you bring up your character, and how people don't know you.

Well, we know all of the the stuff mentioned above.

Did I mention that I have a friend who is ______?


And seriously, this is BT.

This is one of the most supportive and positive forums on the topic.

Experienced triathletes stay here because it is the nicest, most understanding supporting group on the internet.

 

Again, this is BT.

This is the forum where I kill more threads than I can count by trying to introduce a little Devil's Advocate with people that I agree with, just to stir a little excitement, controversy, and dialogue.

I am usually in the top percentile of anal sphincterness on this forum, where in other forums I am the nicest, free-love, hippy in comparison.

This is BT; read the threads that result from searching terms such as "survivor", "help", "cancer", "harassment", "recovery", or "need to turn my life around."

Or just cruise the Clyde, Weightloss, or Injury forums randomly.

 

 

I am really tempted to put up your original post as my own at another forum just to see what a less supportive group would say.

 

Today's rant has been brought to you by the term "Locus of Control".

 

Thread dies in 3...2...1

2011-06-07 10:56 AM
in reply to: #3536918

Master
2477
2000100100100100252525
Oceanside, California
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?
eabeam -

I am really tempted to put up your original post as my own at another forum just to see what a less supportive group would say.

 

 

Question for mods,

 

If, theoretically, someone was to do this.

What is the policy on providing a link?

2011-06-07 11:00 AM
in reply to: #3534865

Veteran
223
100100
Arlington, VA
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?

My first post was inartfully written.  I think I have stated that.  I know the term 'unfair' has proven incredibly inflammmatory.  I apologized to gvey for my post.  I've even admitted that I totally forgot a neighborhood in my own hometown.  When I discussed it with my brother last night, he replied, "Oh yeah dude, there are some serious hills over there."   I have tried several times to rephrase my question to get at the core concept I was trying to explain.  I don't have anger or malice towards the race organizers or anyone else posting here.  I have accepted responsibility for my physical condition leading up to the race.

Is there any futher contrition anyone needs from me to get this back on a civil playing field and on topic?

 



2011-06-07 11:02 AM
in reply to: #3534865

Master
2477
2000100100100100252525
Oceanside, California
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?

You can use any of my race reports as an exemplar.

I am pretty good at identifying what I should have done better and my incorrect assumptions on pretty much every race I have done, with exception to the Castaic series.

 

2011-06-07 11:04 AM
in reply to: #3534865

Master
2477
2000100100100100252525
Oceanside, California
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?
Listen, I can understand mis-writing an original post, but don't get upset when people respond on what you wrote and not what you meant.
2011-06-07 11:08 AM
in reply to: #3534865

Veteran
223
100100
Arlington, VA
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?

Friend, I am not upset.  Really.  I am frustrated that my efforts to refocus the post on what I really wanted to ask have failed.

And I appreciate the invitation to peruse your reports.

2011-06-07 11:32 AM
in reply to: #3534865

Veteran
930
50010010010010025
Morgan Hill, California
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?
Maybe I'm a little late to this party, but I did want to stick up for the OP somewhat. I think its somewhat disingenuous for many to act like they've never seen the word "fair" written in a description of a course or event. Typically, where I've seen it, its in the context of a course that is not so flat as to favor the power competitors over the climbers, and not so hilly as to favor the climbers over the bigger, power competitors. As in, the course was a "fair" test of all around abilities. On Lava right now, they describe the new Vegas 70.3 course as a "true" world championship course. I am pretty confident in concluding that they are not saying that Clearwater was short of the mileage and that Vegas is now the true test because the bike course is actually 56 miles.

I do think any use of "fair" has to be put in context following its usage, don't just leave it hanging out there. I also agree with many that the use of "unfair" is a negative term that obviously has stirred up a lot of emotion.

To the OP, to answer what I think was your original question, if the course was a course for climbers, I would just say that, rather than use "too hard," or "unfair." I think your description that the run course included a series of vicious hills and severe inclines/descents would be more helpful to people reading the race report. After all, isn't that the point of race reports? Someone reading it might think they are looking for just such a course. In that case, "unfair" or "too hard" is not helpful for that person. Now, saying "too hard for me" is a fair inclusion in a race report, as it relates to your own personal experience.

As with all things on the internet, don't take it too seriously or personally. This really is a very supportive and positive forum.
2011-06-07 11:42 AM
in reply to: #3534865

Expert
936
50010010010010025
Salisbury
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?

I have jokingly said many times that a bike course was "unfair" because while I get passed on the up hills and I have to break on the down hills because there is a 90 degree turn at the bottom. Realistically, sure, it's because I'm not as good a climber as I could/should be. 

Lets face it. Fast people have it easy. They're done their work outs quicker!

To everyone that's getting nuts about "too hard" - FYI, there is a drop down in the race report Overall course based on my ability: Too easy, Just right, Too hard. So while it is relative to a person's ability it's still something worth recording. At least to BT.



2011-06-07 12:25 PM
in reply to: #3537048

Master
2477
2000100100100100252525
Oceanside, California
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?

kmac1346 - 2011-06-07 9:32 AM I think its somewhat disingenuous for many to act like they've never seen the word "fair" written in a description of a course or event

 

I am not disingenuous, I am sanctimonious.

 

Actually, I am something else, but forum rules prohibit!

2011-06-07 12:32 PM
in reply to: #3536887

Subject: ...
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2011-06-07 12:33 PM
in reply to: #3534865

Champion
7595
50002000500252525
Columbia, South Carolina
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?

OP, since you have asked, again, for constructive replies, here's an attempt.

As just one way (and, I emphasize, one among many, not necessarily the best, not necessarily the one you should adopt) to indicate that a course was hilly and hard, I'll point you to a recent race report of mine(A 5K in the mountains.)

2011-06-07 12:49 PM
in reply to: #3534865

Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?
Sort of a hijack here, on the subject of the BT race report drop downs.  If something is "too hard" for my abilities, wouldn't that necessarily mean a DNF?  A course may be "hard," and we've all done them (and also had people say they weren't hard, it's relative), but "too hard" to me connotes I couldn't do it.  I've never labeled a course "too hard" for this reason (not cuz I am a tough guy, but I would only do that if I DNF'd, otherwise it's just hard, or mother****ing hard, or brutal, etc.....)
2011-06-07 1:57 PM
in reply to: #3537253

Champion
7595
50002000500252525
Columbia, South Carolina
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?

ChrisM - 2011-06-07 1:49 PM Sort of a hijack here, on the subject of the BT race report drop downs.  If something is "too hard" for my abilities, wouldn't that necessarily mean a DNF?  A course may be "hard," and we've all done them (and also had people say they weren't hard, it's relative), but "too hard" to me connotes I couldn't do it.  I've never labeled a course "too hard" for this reason (not cuz I am a tough guy, but I would only do that if I DNF'd, otherwise it's just hard, or mother****ing hard, or brutal, etc.....)

 

I agree.  I don't really use that feature.



2011-06-07 2:03 PM
in reply to: #3537395

Pro
6011
50001000
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?
Experior - 2011-06-07 2:57 PM

ChrisM - 2011-06-07 1:49 PM Sort of a hijack here, on the subject of the BT race report drop downs.  If something is "too hard" for my abilities, wouldn't that necessarily mean a DNF?  A course may be "hard," and we've all done them (and also had people say they weren't hard, it's relative), but "too hard" to me connotes I couldn't do it.  I've never labeled a course "too hard" for this reason (not cuz I am a tough guy, but I would only do that if I DNF'd, otherwise it's just hard, or mother****ing hard, or brutal, etc.....)

 

I agree.  I don't really use that feature.

x3.

2011-06-07 3:06 PM
in reply to: #3534865

Elite
4048
2000200025
Gilbert, Az.
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?
KarmannGhia - 2011-06-06 9:31 AM

I'm working on my race report for a mini sprint tri I did yesterday.  Words like 'too hard' and 'unfair' are in my draft describing the run course.  I decided I'd come here to get some feedback before posting.  I'm not necessarily looking for an objective definition.  The run course had a serious of vicious hills with severe inclines followed by severe declines.  First time in three years of this I have been reduced to walking and was anywhere from two to three minutes per mile off a typical pace for me.

Just curious if others have a threshold for 'too hard' and 'unfair'.

I think "unfair" is what we should label your expectations. You need to be a lot more realistic about what this sport entails. I realize this is from a year ago, but on the goals from your log for 2010 - " I want to do 500 total miles of training". 

That's 10 miles a week, basically.  Even if you up it to 5000 miles of training, that's 100 miles. Many of us here do that in a couple days on the bike alone.

Put in the time, and instead of whining about the course, you'll be blowing people off your heels instead, and that is a much better feeling.

John

2011-06-07 10:29 PM
in reply to: #3534865

Veteran
223
100100
Arlington, VA
Subject: RE: What is 'too hard' and 'unfair'?

Final post for me.  I did finish my race report and benefited from many of the comments here in writing it.  My apologies for the drama I caused.  I really did enjoy the race.  I had a great swim for me and a pretty good bike all said.  I got to make some new friends and was incredibly happy to be doing what I enjoy so much in my own hometown.  If I've done this right, there should be a photo attached.  I hope you see a guy here who is happy with his effort. 

I'm taking the summer off to restore my second air cooled VW (my other passion).  With any good fortune, I'll drive it to Giant Acorn where I'll be fully prepared to take on a fair course.  Wink

Enjoy your summers.  Train well and stay safe out there.

With respect,

   Rod





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