General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again Rss Feed  
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2011-08-15 3:51 PM

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Subject: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again

I seem to forget,

But what is the difference between a Road bike requipped with aero bars and a Tri Bike?  In other words, what is supposed to be the advantage of a Tri bike over a Road bike with aero bars?

I purchased a 2009 Felt S32 and ran a few events with it, plus some training miles, and I've never got 100% comfortable with it - I feel like I don't have enough control over it, can't manuever fast enough to get out of the way of road debris, handling in tight corners, etc ...

...and so have been considering selling that and getting a Road bike equipped with aero bars instead.

I've always been BOP and don't feel that I'd be sacrificing a chance to podium by switching, but do feel I'd perhaps gain more comfort, more control over the bike, and more confidence in going out alone for long rides with a Road bike vs. a TRi bike ....

... unless there are some significant advantages to have a Tri bike?

 



Edited by klowman 2011-08-15 3:52 PM


2011-08-15 4:07 PM
in reply to: #3644637

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again

I know the answer...but I'd probably articulate it all wrong.

Where's Shane when you need him?

2011-08-15 4:35 PM
in reply to: #3644637

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again
The thinking behind a tri bike is simple: reduce aerodynamic drag and thus go faster for the same energy output by the rider.

The biggest source of drag on a bike is the rider, especially when the rider is sitting up with his/her chest to the wind.  Moving the rider into a lower position reduces drag, as does having his/her arms tucked in out of the wind, head down, back level, arms on the aerobars - the classic tri bike aero position. 

You can approximate this position by aerobars on road bike, but it's not ideal.  The angles of a tri bike are different to optimize for the aero position.  But a road bike with aerobars is a great all around bike. For Olympic distance races, a road bike with clip-ons is perfect.  Tri bikes are all about aero, so if you're not going to ride in the aero position most of the race you might as well be on a road bike. 

This picture illustrates the geometry differences between a road and tri bike.






(bike_geometry_overlay.jpg)



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2011-08-15 5:09 PM
in reply to: #3644637

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again

if you do go with the road bike & aero bars, would be a good idea to get a professional fit done. generally this goes with any bike..but as said the geometry is not ideal for aero, and will need adjustments to get the position correct for you.

 

2011-08-15 5:17 PM
in reply to: #3644637


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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again
If you are thinking that a road bike with clip-on bars will handle like a road bike get ready for a suprise.  They do not respond like a road bike due to the increased material on the handlebars.  I have a tri bike and a roadie and I had clip-ons before I got the tri bike.  My tri bike handles as well as my roadie did with clip-ons.  My guess is that you are expecting a bike to handle a certain way and it is not as nimble as you anticipated.  I would suspect that you might find a road bike to be not as nimble as you anticipate as well.  Bike handling skills are learned.  Most "bike riders" don't like to ride with us tri guys becasue they feel our bike handling skills are suspect.  Get out on some curvy hills and practice a bit (out of the areo position) and your skills will improve.  Or ride in a group ride nest to a behind another rider.  That being said if I had to have one bike I would have a roadie and not a tri specific.  You will gain between 1 and 5 minutes over a olympic distace with a tri bike over a roadie so for most of us (including myself) it is not a big  savings.
2011-08-15 5:42 PM
in reply to: #3644775

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again

skibumm - 2011-08-15 6:17 PM If you are thinking that a road bike with clip-on bars will handle like a road bike get ready for a suprise.  They do not respond like a road bike due to the increased material on the handlebars.  I have a tri bike and a roadie and I had clip-ons before I got the tri bike.  My tri bike handles as well as my roadie did with clip-ons.  My guess is that you are expecting a bike to handle a certain way and it is not as nimble as you anticipated.  I would suspect that you might find a road bike to be not as nimble as you anticipate as well.  Bike handling skills are learned.  Most "bike riders" don't like to ride with us tri guys becasue they feel our bike handling skills are suspect.  Get out on some curvy hills and practice a bit (out of the areo position) and your skills will improve.  Or ride in a group ride nest to a behind another rider.  That being said if I had to have one bike I would have a roadie and not a tri specific.  You will gain between 1 and 5 minutes over a olympic distace with a tri bike over a roadie so for most of us (including myself) it is not a big  savings.

Hey, nice handle!

I hope you are not advocating *gasp* riding with other "bike riders" while on your Tri bike!  That is blasphemy!  They may use some passive aggressive way of keeping you away from them like blowing snot rockets or simply throwing tizzy fits (insert sarcasm here).



2011-08-15 5:47 PM
in reply to: #3644637

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again

Here is a resource that discusses the differences:

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/bikes/difference.shtml

2011-08-15 5:53 PM
in reply to: #3644713

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again

brucemorgan - 2011-08-15 2:35 PM The thinking behind a tri bike is simple: reduce aerodynamic drag and thus go faster for the same energy output by the rider.

The biggest source of drag on a bike is the rider, especially when the rider is sitting up with his/her chest to the wind.  Moving the rider into a lower position reduces drag, as does having his/her arms tucked in out of the wind, head down, back level, arms on the aerobars - the classic tri bike aero position. 

You can approximate this position by aerobars on road bike, but it's not ideal.  The angles of a tri bike are different to optimize for the aero position.  But a road bike with aerobars is a great all around bike. For Olympic distance races, a road bike with clip-ons is perfect.  Tri bikes are all about aero, so if you're not going to ride in the aero position most of the race you might as well be on a road bike. 

This picture illustrates the geometry differences between a road and tri bike.


Thanks for this picture.  Really drills the point home.  I currently have a road bike with clip-ons, and have been debating the merits of acquiring a tri bike as well.  I know there's a lot of disagreements about how much faster a tri bike is, but how much of it is due to the obvious aero advantage versus the supposed advantage of "saving the legs"?  It's true that the more upright position of the seat tube is better for the hamstrings, correct?

2011-08-15 6:21 PM
in reply to: #3644713


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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again

brucemorgan - 2011-08-15 2:35 PM

You can approximate this position by aerobars on road bike, but it's not ideal.  The angles of a tri bike are different to optimize for the aero position.

The three contact points you have on a bike are your feet, your butt, and your arms/hands. A road bike with a forward seat post and a Look Ergostem can produce exactly the same contact points as a dedicated TT bike, so you can achieve exactly the same body position.

2011-08-15 7:02 PM
in reply to: #3644826

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again
mango6383 - 2011-08-15 3:53 PM

... how much of it is due to the obvious aero advantage versus the supposed advantage of "saving the legs"?  It's true that the more upright position of the seat tube is better for the hamstrings, correct?

The whole "saving the legs" bit is a myth.  Hip angles and other changes from the position will engage different muscles, true, but that's a matter of getting used to it.  An good aero position where you can produce maximum power comfortably is what saves your legs.

2011-08-15 7:07 PM
in reply to: #3644870

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again
RChung - 2011-08-15 4:21 PM

brucemorgan - 2011-08-15 2:35 PM

You can approximate this position by aerobars on road bike, but it's not ideal.  The angles of a tri bike are different to optimize for the aero position.

The three contact points you have on a bike are your feet, your butt, and your arms/hands. A road bike with a forward seat post and a Look Ergostem can produce exactly the same contact points as a dedicated TT bike, so you can achieve exactly the same body position.

Yes you can make the contact position the same, but see Tom's diagram.  You can't lengthen the top tube or change the front center dimension or change the fork angle.  Thus a fast-forward road bike on clip-ons ill have a significantly different fore-and-aft weight distribution than a tri bike.  This is what is I mean by "not ideal".



2011-08-15 7:17 PM
in reply to: #3644925


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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again
brucemorgan - 2011-08-15 5:07 PM
RChung - 2011-08-15 4:21 PM

The three contact points you have on a bike are your feet, your butt, and your arms/hands. A road bike with a forward seat post and a Look Ergostem can produce exactly the same contact points as a dedicated TT bike, so you can achieve exactly the same body position.

Yes you can make the contact position the same, but see Tom's diagram.  You can't lengthen the top tube or change the front center dimension or change the fork angle.  Thus a fast-forward road bike on clip-ons ill have a significantly different fore-and-aft weight distribution than a tri bike.  This is what is I mean by "not ideal".

The top tube length is irrelevant if the contact points are the same. There's more variance in fork angle among TT bikes and among road bikes than between TT bikes and road bikes.

2011-08-15 7:26 PM
in reply to: #3644936

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again
RChung - 2011-08-15 5:17 PM
brucemorgan - 2011-08-15 5:07 PM
RChung - 2011-08-15 4:21 PM

The three contact points you have on a bike are your feet, your butt, and your arms/hands. A road bike with a forward seat post and a Look Ergostem can produce exactly the same contact points as a dedicated TT bike, so you can achieve exactly the same body position.

Yes you can make the contact position the same, but see Tom's diagram.  You can't lengthen the top tube or change the front center dimension or change the fork angle.  Thus a fast-forward road bike on clip-ons ill have a significantly different fore-and-aft weight distribution than a tri bike.  This is what is I mean by "not ideal".

The top tube length is irrelevant if the contact points are the same. There's more variance in fork angle among TT bikes and among road bikes than between TT bikes and road bikes.

If most people could turn their well handling, well fitting comfortable road bike into an equally well handling, well fitting tri bike by the mere addition of a seat post and clip-ons, then we'd see a lot more sales of fast forward seat posts. 

But we don't, and that's because while it may work for some people, it doesn't really work well enough in most cases.

2011-08-15 8:13 PM
in reply to: #3644941


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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again
brucemorgan - 2011-08-15 5:26 PM
RChung - 2011-08-15 5:17 PM
brucemorgan - 2011-08-15 5:07 PM
RChung - 2011-08-15 4:21 PM

The three contact points you have on a bike are your feet, your butt, and your arms/hands. A road bike with a forward seat post and a Look Ergostem can produce exactly the same contact points as a dedicated TT bike, so you can achieve exactly the same body position.

Yes you can make the contact position the same, but see Tom's diagram.  You can't lengthen the top tube or change the front center dimension or change the fork angle.  Thus a fast-forward road bike on clip-ons ill have a significantly different fore-and-aft weight distribution than a tri bike.  This is what is I mean by "not ideal".

The top tube length is irrelevant if the contact points are the same. There's more variance in fork angle among TT bikes and among road bikes than between TT bikes and road bikes.

If most people could turn their well handling, well fitting comfortable road bike into an equally well handling, well fitting tri bike by the mere addition of a seat post and clip-ons, then we'd see a lot more sales of fast forward seat posts. 

But we don't, and that's because while it may work for some people, it doesn't really work well enough in most cases.

You left out the Ergostem.

In any event, your initial claim was this:

The thinking behind a tri bike is simple: reduce aerodynamic drag and thus go faster for the same energy output by the rider.

The biggest source of drag on a bike is the rider, especially when the rider is sitting up with his/her chest to the wind.  Moving the rider into a lower position reduces drag, as does having his/her arms tucked in out of the wind, head down, back level, arms on the aerobars - the classic tri bike aero position. 

You can approximate this position by aerobars on road bike, but it's not ideal.  The angles of a tri bike are different to optimize for the aero position.

Now you've switched the raison d'etre to handling. Hmmm. What will your stance be in your next post?

2011-08-15 8:23 PM
in reply to: #3644991

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again

RChung - 2011-08-15 6:13 PM
brucemorgan - 2011-08-15 5:26 PM

You can approximate this position by aerobars on road bike, but it's not ideal.  The angles of a tri bike are different to optimize for the aero position.

Now you've switched the raison d'etre to handling. Hmmm. What will your stance be in your next post?

There's no change in my statements.  I argue that while you can approximate the tri bike position with aerobars on a road bike, it's not ideal.  You pointed out that you can get the same contact points with seatpost; I gave two different arguments that it's not ideal. 

I presume you are interpreting my statement about "not ideal" to refer only to position.  I meant it more broadly which should be clear in the two sentences quoted above.



Edited by brucemorgan 2011-08-15 8:24 PM
2011-08-16 7:27 AM
in reply to: #3645000

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again

I put aerobars on my road bike as a compromise to getting a new tri bike.

Then my LBS let me borrow a demo tri bike for a week.  The tri bike is made by the same company that made my road bike.  WOW!

1)  On my typical 17 mile loop, I could compare on my Garmin the difference between bikes on one eight mile stretch quite easily.  The tri bike was 0.5 mph faster AND I had a heart rate of about 5 bpm lower.  I was faster with less effort.

2) I also tried a 4.6 mile loop at the same heart rate.  The tri bike was a minute faster.  This works out to about 2 minutes for a sprint or 4 minutes for an oly; this is very consistent with other people's experience I have read.

The road bike with aerobars is about twice as expensive as this specific tri bike, but ended up being slower.  And I'm not real fast; I usually do my training rides at a 16.5 mph average pace (pretty hilly Central NJ route).

Aerobars on the road bike is certainly an improvement, but in my experience, it's not a real substitute for a tri bike.

Just be prepared to give up a lot of speed for some improvement in handling.



2011-08-16 10:18 AM
in reply to: #3644637

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again
So for those of you with both a roadie & tri . . which do you ride more often when not racing?
2011-08-16 10:25 AM
in reply to: #3645627

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again

If I'm on a group ride with more than four people and I don't know some of them- I'm going to be on my road bike because it handle quicker. Important in close proximity to other riders.

If I'm riding with the four or five people I would normally ride with- whom I know and trust as good riders- and we are going long or hard or both- or I'm riding alone-, I'm riding my tri bike. It is more comfortable since my skeleton (specifically, the humerus bone in the bicep area) supports the weight of my torso and the angle between my torso and femur at the top of the pedal stroke is more open and relaxed than a road bike. Also, since my body posture is more aerodynamic on the ri bike, I go faster with less energy.

If I am doing a brick workout, running off the bike, I ride the tri bike. There are several university studies (Garside study, et al) that quantified an advantage running off a steep geometry bike- although some subsequent studies (spuriously) debunked Garside. Personally, I run faster off a tri bike.

2011-08-16 11:45 AM
in reply to: #3644637

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again
klowman - 2011-08-15 3:51 PM

I purchased a 2009 Felt S32 and ran a few events with it, plus some training miles, and I've never got 100% comfortable with it - I feel like I don't have enough control over it, can't manuever fast enough to get out of the way of road debris, handling in tight corners, etc ...

...but do feel I'd perhaps gain more comfort, more control over the bike, and more confidence in going out alone for long rides with a Road bike vs. a TRi bike ....

That is exactly why I would have advised you to get a road bike.  Only get a tri bike as a 2nd bike.  Only a relative few people own only a tri bike and do OK and don't regret it.  But the best advice for over 90% of us is to get a road bike if you can only have one or the other and to get a road bike if you are not yet an advanced cyclist.

 

2011-08-16 12:46 PM
in reply to: #3644775

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again

skibumm - 2011-08-15 6:17 PM If you are thinking that a road bike with clip-on bars will handle like a road bike get ready for a suprise.  They do not respond like a road bike due to the increased material on the handlebars.  I have a tri bike and a roadie and I had clip-ons before I got the tri bike.  My tri bike handles as well as my roadie did with clip-ons.  My guess is that you are expecting a bike to handle a certain way and it is not as nimble as you anticipated.  I would suspect that you might find a road bike to be not as nimble as you anticipate as well.  Bike handling skills are learned.  Most "bike riders" don't like to ride with us tri guys becasue they feel our bike handling skills are suspect.  Get out on some curvy hills and practice a bit (out of the areo position) and your skills will improve.  Or ride in a group ride nest to a behind another rider.  That being said if I had to have one bike I would have a roadie and not a tri specific.  You will gain between 1 and 5 minutes over a olympic distace with a tri bike over a roadie so for most of us (including myself) it is not a big  savings.

 

I think this is what most interests me.  I'm not so worried about whether the Tri bike or Road bike is a few minutes faster per an Oly distance, or if running is a bit easier off the Tri bike than a Roadie ... my run sucks anyhow and a few minutes faster in the bike leg won't matter for a BOP llike me ... my main concern is how well the bike handles and manuevers.

I always thought (and thought I heard others say), that a Road bike handles much better.  I'm not aware of whether when adding aero clip-ons that the Roadie becomes just as hard to handle as a Tri bike.

I really got to thinking abou this watching the TDF a couple of weeks ago, and seeing how these guys can ride and steer just as well with their hands off the handlebars as with on.

I see how they ride right up beside cars, or look behind them, stuff bottles of water down the back of their jerseys, etc ... and maintain complete control of the bike.  The stuff they do on their Road bikes ...I would never attempt on my Tri bike ...I feel like I would take a spill in an instant.

 

2011-08-16 2:31 PM
in reply to: #3645913

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again

I recently purchased my first tri bike and my initial fit was based on my overall flexibility, which is pretty good, and I was in a very aero position.  The problem I had was I have 2 herniated discs in my neck and I had no visibility down the road within significant neck pain.  That and not being used to the tri bike, I had a major crash on my first ride.  I got too close to the edge of the road due to a cross wind and not being used to the bike.  I tried to stay on the road and ended up losing control and landing on my right side in the middle of the road.  I still have some bruises on my right hip almost a month later.

The first fit adjustment I had I had the stem raised.  This helped, but I found that it was not enough.  I did a 61 mile ride and it was tough on my neck.  I think the main problem was tilting my head back to look through my rear view mirror.  The next day I had lost strength in my left hand and even had trouble tying my shoes (kind of scary).  Since then, I've had a longer stem still put in and that has made a big difference.  I'm not in quite as good an aero position, but my neck can handle the new arrangement and I haven't had more problems with weakness in my arms/hands.  I just did a ride today and averaged 21.5 mph for 17 miles.  This is about 2 mph faster (with less effort) than I used to do the same route on my road bike.

I'm hoping that my neck will adjust and I'll be able to get a bit more aero over time, but if not, the tir bike is still faster than m road bike.  



2011-08-16 5:12 PM
in reply to: #3644637

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Subject: RE: Road Bike vs. Tri Bike - Again

Shot out to the 2009 FELT S32- I have the same bike and freaking love it!!!! It is my first road/tri bike so i don't have anything to compare it to other than my Costco Mountain Bike.  I got a professional fit on an EXIT bike for $100 (Great Deal, hard to find guy that does it out of his house).

I rode about 400 miles with the bike before the fit and so far about 40 miles after and i can feel a difference in my overall feeling of the bike for the better.

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