General Discussion Triathlon Talk » What is your average strokes per 25 m? Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
Show Per page
 
 
of 3
 
 
2005-09-13 3:11 PM
in reply to: #245757

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
I am 19-21 strokes per 25 yds. My best 1k is 13:32. I used to swim 17-18 but then realized its not about how many strokes you take, it's what you do with EACH stroke. I can glide down the pool at 15 strokes and swim a 2:00 100. That's easy, and yes, I would never get tired and TI would call that efficient. But that isn't swimming. That is just gliding down the pool. For beginners, I think it's great. For people who want to swim fast and be competitive, it doesn't work. Focus on your TECHNIQUE, not your stroke count or DPS (distance per stroke).


2005-09-13 3:48 PM
in reply to: #245757

User image

Extreme Veteran
326
10010010025
Paso Robles, California
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?

I would ask for some coahing help on the technique factor, but I don't have my checkbook on me.

Are paddles, and fins that helpful for technique though?

2005-09-13 3:55 PM
in reply to: #246151

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
Ask away! Fins are good for improving your kick. Paddles are good only when you have your catch down. What time do you swim for 1500m?
2005-09-13 4:05 PM
in reply to: #246162

User image

Extreme Veteran
326
10010010025
Paso Robles, California
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?

You know I was just teasing right Mike?

But I do appreciate the help.  On race day I am 28-32 min for 1.5K, depends on water (ocean, lake, kelp bed)

I would like to get my times under 25.  I have stretch goal of 2:30 at Wildflower next year.  And this is the start.

But, any help will do.  I really think it is my catch that is flawed, because I feel exhausted when I push it and my form collapses.

Jason

2005-09-13 4:14 PM
in reply to: #246162

User image

Coach
10487
50005000100100100100252525
Boston, MA
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?

mikericci - 2005-09-13 3:55 PM Ask away! Fins are good for improving your kick. Paddles are good only when you have your catch down. What time do you swim for 1500m?

Mike: I read your article about swimming drills vs volume and you mentioned that someone which swims 1500mts on 26:00 min or faster should rather focus on volume to improve speed. My time is 24:30 to 25:00. I would like to work on my swimming for next season and bring my time down to 21-22 min. Could you please elaborate a bit more about your article and how can I plan my training about this? I am willing to work a lot on this and do 3 or 4 workouts a week...

2005-09-13 4:21 PM
in reply to: #246183

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
Jason

You need to work on your catch. I can tell that by how fast you swim - chances are very good that you drop your elbow and you don't 'grab' any water. This is THE KEY to swimming faster. Do you have someone that can video tape the underwater part of your stroke?

25:00 is not hard. You can do that with some dedicated time swimming.


2005-09-13 4:27 PM
in reply to: #246195

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
I suggest you swim big sets - main sets that are 2100-2800 yards - the workouts should be 4-5k. BUT, in every workout, you work on your stroke, at least 300-500 yards of drills. At LEAST! Then another 300 yds of kicking. If you swim 4-5k, 3x per week, and 2k 1x per week, you will get faster.

As far as how to set up the week, here is what I do:
Monday - speed - fast 100s - about 12-15 - shortening the rest as I go.
Wednesday: Pacing day - not hard, just cruise at 1000 t-pace - sets of 300s, 500s
Friday: longer, faster sets - typically I use 200s here - like 10-15 x 200 on short rest. Keep the stroke in control, and just get used to swimming tired.
Sat or Sunday - easy swim day - 2k -

That is pretty much it. Nothing too complicated. Just swim baby!
2005-09-13 4:28 PM
in reply to: #245757

User image

Veteran
204
100100
Gif-sur-Yvette
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?

20-21, when going slow as in making sure I can finish the swim (around 2min/100m). Can do 17-18 going fast, but that will only be good for 100 meters in 1:30 or so, then I'm trash.

I know, swimming is my weakness.

2005-09-13 4:30 PM
in reply to: #245757

User image

Coach
10487
50005000100100100100252525
Boston, MA
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
Great! I'll start working on that... Thanks!
2005-09-13 4:41 PM
in reply to: #245757

User image

Champion
6931
5000100050010010010010025
Bellingham, Washington
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
27-28 per 25 yds.  Sometimes more, sometimes less.
2005-09-13 4:43 PM
in reply to: #246200

User image

Extreme Veteran
326
10010010025
Paso Robles, California
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?

mikericci - 2005-09-13 2:21 PM Jason You need to work on your catch. I can tell that by how fast you swim - chances are very good that you drop your elbow and you don't 'grab' any water. This is THE KEY to swimming faster. Do you have someone that can video tape the underwater part of your stroke? 25:00 is not hard. You can do that with some dedicated time swimming.

I don't really have access to anything like the under water camera.  But talking to you makes me think in order to start getting some good times I need a coach of some sort.  In all threee disciplines I kind of just go.  I have gotten better endurance wise, but I think I am getting down to technique and speed now.

Not to mention to weight I carry, I am the football player in Transition, most other racers get out my way



2005-09-13 4:49 PM
in reply to: #246219

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
Is there a local swim team where you live? You are in CA, there MUST be a kids swim team. The coach should have an underwater camera.

You can always continue to grow your endurance. You want better technique to be more efficient which will give you more 'free speed'.

Nutrition is another part of the puzzle too....
2005-09-13 5:11 PM
in reply to: #245757

User image

Master
2447
200010010010010025
Marietta, Ga
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?

Okay, lets level the playing field....

First, I don't do underwater flip turns, so I begin to count strokes as soon as I turn.  If you do flip turns, you can probably take a stroke or two off of your count versus someone who does flip turns and dolphins for a few feet.

Secondly, I don't ever kick, hoping to save my legs for the bike and run.  I kick only once between strokes, to roll the hips.  All of my swimming is upper body, so naturally, I'll have a higher stroke count that a pure swimmer.

With all that being said, my 25 yard stroke count is 17-18.

2005-09-13 5:24 PM
in reply to: #245757

User image

Extreme Veteran
495
100100100100252525
Stamford, CT
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
Mine is 14-15 (7 full strokes) with a 2 beat kick (yards), though I can get it as low as 12 if I focus on it (without kicking any extra).

Edited by jellyfish 2005-09-13 5:27 PM
2005-09-13 5:26 PM
in reply to: #246247

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
Flip turns = Higher VO2 max
Higher VO2 max = faster athlete

Kicking = more efficient swim stroke
more efficient swim stroke = faster swim, less effort and faster for rest of race

And that is all I am going to say about that.
2005-09-13 5:52 PM
in reply to: #246102

User image

Pro
4578
20002000500252525
Vancouver, BC
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
mikericci - 2005-09-13 1:11 PM

I am 19-21 strokes per 25 yds. My best 1k is 13:32. I used to swim 17-18 but then realized its not about how many strokes you take, it's what you do with EACH stroke. I can glide down the pool at 15 strokes and swim a 2:00 100. That's easy, and yes, I would never get tired and TI would call that efficient. But that isn't swimming. That is just gliding down the pool. For beginners, I think it's great. For people who want to swim fast and be competitive, it doesn't work. Focus on your TECHNIQUE, not your stroke count or DPS (distance per stroke).


Hi Mike,

I know that it isn't all about SPL/DPS, but I was just surprised that when I got back in the pool last night my SPL had increased so much.

Here's a bit of background on my swimming and what I am working towards.
- I have just finished my third season of triathlon. In my first season my swimming was very slow. I mostly swam by myself but I did have some help from friends who were lifeguards/good swimmers from swim club.
- I have been in the masters club at my pool for the past two years. We swim 3 times a week for 1-1.5 hours per session from the middle of September until the end of June. The sessions are coached and our average volume is 2500 - 3500m.
- I swim all 4 strokes (fly, back, breast, free + IM) with the club.
- In July and August I swim once a week in the lake with a wetsuit.
- I have noticed that my OWS swim times are not as good as they are in the pool.
- Last June I could consistently hold 1:43/100m with 22 SPL if I didn't push off of the wall.
- Last June I completed a 2km swim as part of a half ironman tri in 39 minutes and I felt very fresh coming out of the water.
- Yesterday I swam in the pool for the first time since the end of June. I was swimming 2:00/100m and SPL were 30 (just happened to count them). I slowed down did some drills, then timed myself again at 1:55/100m and SPL were 26.
- My endurance is fine. I could swim forever.

I will start swimming with master's again next Tuesday so I will have a coach again and I should be able to improve my swimming again. I don't plan on completing any tris next year either, just swim meets and bike races. However I have my last tri this season this coming Sunday. The swim is 600m in a 50m pool. Do you have any drills/techniques for getting much quicker in a very short period of time taking into consideration where I am coming from. I do think I have a high elbow recovery, but I may be letting my elbow drop. Is there any drill I can work on to catch that.

Oh yeah. I will only be able to get in the pool one more time before my tri. Tonight!

Thanks,
Jen

Edited by jeng 2005-09-13 5:54 PM


2005-09-13 6:00 PM
in reply to: #246275

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
Nothing like a lot of pressure on the Coach huh? :-)

Anchor drill will help you. basically swim doggie paddle, and focus on the 'catch' - high elbow and 'feel' the catch. its THE BEST drill in my opinion.

As far as what happened - well a wetsuit in OW is considerably faster than the pool and MOST swim courses are mis-marked. Probably ALL swim course are mis-marked. So - don't compare OW swim to pool swim times. Get in the pool and swim a 1k or 2k TT, and see where you are. Then work on improving that time.

Going from 3 workouts per week to 1 OW swim will definitely slow you down once you get back into the pool.

Good luck in your race!
2005-09-13 6:35 PM
in reply to: #246282

User image

Pro
4578
20002000500252525
Vancouver, BC
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
Thanks very much Mike. I will work on anchor drill tonight. So I just keep my head above water and work on the catch right? I'll give that a try.

I was expecting to be slower yesterday, but I was frustrated that my SPL increased indicating that my stroke has worsened.

Okay I will work on anchor drill and I will post an update tomorrow.

Thanks again,
Jen
2005-09-13 6:41 PM
in reply to: #246309

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
Start out with head down so you can 'see' the catch - then as you get tired, pick up your head. Alternate 25 anchor, 25 swim.

Looking forward to the update!
2005-09-13 8:47 PM
in reply to: #246261

User image

Champion
5183
5000100252525
Wisconsin
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
mikericci - 2005-09-13 4:26 PM

Flip turns = Higher VO2 max
Higher VO2 max = faster athlete

And that is all I am going to say about that.


can you say a little more about that? pretty please? what's vo2 max got to do with a flip turn? Is that an idiotic Q? I never do them bc I feel like it gives me a faster/false push off and speed on the interval.
2005-09-13 9:07 PM
in reply to: #245757

Member
215
100100
Houston, Texas
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
i would imagine that a flip turn simply put requires you to hold your breath longer during a given worlout set. so i guess there is some trade off. you dont technically swim as far if you have a smooth long flip turn, but at the same time to have that smooth long turn, your going to be holding your breath a bit longer than normal as you apraoch the wall, turn, and streamline off the wall.


2005-09-13 9:48 PM
in reply to: #245757

User image

The Original
7834
5000200050010010010025
Raleigh/Durham
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
I am only 5'1" and my arms are kinda of short- ok, they are short.  There- I admitted it!  When I first started swimming I was taking between 26-27.  Last time I counted it was 24-25 adn that was a few mnonths ago.  I haven't counted lately, but after reading this thread I'll count next time I swim   I still have to work on my DPS and need to improve!
2005-09-14 1:15 AM
in reply to: #245757

User image

Extreme Veteran
570
5002525
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
When I'm pushing hard off the pool I can get down to 14. Generally 20-22 for 300+yds. Working on it . . . good thread . . .
2005-09-14 7:40 AM
in reply to: #246400

User image


8763
5000200010005001001002525
Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
>>> would imagine that a flip turn simply put requires you to hold your breath longer during a given worlout set. so i guess there is some trade off. you dont technically swim as far if you have a smooth long flip turn, but at the same time to have that smooth long turn, your going to be holding your breath a bit longer than normal as you apraoch the wall, turn, and streamline off the wall.

Precisely!! There is no trade off though. You swim less strokes, you swim faster, AND you cover more yards in the same amount of time. More importantly, you can keep up with people faster than you, and that means you are swimming faster. I think that is the point of training right? To get faster? So, if you can do a flip turn and actually keep up with faster people around you, then you are doing it right. Once you get to Open Water and you don't have to hold your breath every 20-odd strokes, it becomes very easy.

And Possum, 'faster/false speed' is good. Free Speed as we call it is important. It's more efficient, and it allows you to save your energy. Just like coasting downhill, or having efficient run form. Do you walk your bike downhill, b/c its not work? No, you take advantage of the downhills, and you still write in your log that you covered x miles, even if some were downhill. So - learn to use Free Speed, you get in more training miles/yards in the same amount of time.
Mike
2005-09-14 7:57 AM
in reply to: #245757

User image

Champion
5183
5000100252525
Wisconsin
Subject: RE: What is your average strokes per 25 m?
Thanks Mike. You are so unelievably helpful and generous and patient with your time and info-- I hope you drum up a lot of business, I know if I'd hire you in a minute if I had $$ or any illusion of making this little hobby a habit!


....off to practice flip turns...
New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » What is your average strokes per 25 m? Rss Feed  
Show Per page
 
 
of 3