General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues Rss Feed  
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2011-09-14 3:31 PM

Expert
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Golden, CO
Subject: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues
I have posted in the past that I have been having hydration issues and they again bit me in the butt at IMMOO. I was extremely happy with my swim and happy with my bike..came out to run and was doing fine until the hydration issues popped up again causing me to pull out of the race.  Very disheartening since I was about 1.5 hours ahead of where I thought I would be.

Anyway..Does anybody know who or what type of person I should be looking to go to for help and advice?  My coach and I have determined I have a very high sweat rate during races and have worked on numerous strategies.  However I don't know if I need to see a doctor.. a nutritionist...coach/athlete who has dealt with these issues before...call Powerade..lol.  Anyway. Very frustrated with the problem and just need to find someone to help.  Any suggestions?


2011-09-14 3:37 PM
in reply to: #3686686

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Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues

Sorry your race didn't turn out the way you wanted.

What did your coach think about you being 1.5 hours ahead of your goal in relation to you having to DNF?  Are you sure it's a hydration issue and not a pacing issue?

 

2011-09-14 3:42 PM
in reply to: #3686686

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2011-09-14 3:43 PM
in reply to: #3686698

Expert
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Golden, CO
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues
tri808 - 2011-09-14 2:37 PM

Sorry your race didn't turn out the way you wanted.

What did your coach think about you being 1.5 hours ahead of your goal in relation to you having to DNF?  Are you sure it's a hydration issue and not a pacing issue?

 



No definitely a hydration issue.  I am a slow first timer so my goal was to finish. I was looking at a 15:30 finish with the way things were going. So in my mind I was about 1.5 ahead.  In reality a 15:30 would probably be right where I am supposed to be.  No the hydration issue comes from a sweat rate of between 60 -70 ounces per hour and even more on very hot and humid days.  I am taking a ton of sodium which has helped considerably.  Just need more ideas/strategies/etc..
2011-09-14 3:46 PM
in reply to: #3686686

Expert
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Golden, CO
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues
Also..the pace I usually go has a very low heart rate..usually Zone 2 - in races some Zone 3.  If pace is the issue then I guess becoming more fit then I currently am would help the hydration issue as well.  Plus the fact that more fit should equal faster times which equals less time on the course and less time to dehydrate.
2011-09-14 3:48 PM
in reply to: #3686686

Expert
2547
200050025
The Woodlands, TX
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues
See if your hospital system has a sports medicine dept. Down here we have the Memorial Hermann Ironman Sports Institute (a partnership of some kind. Used to be the Roger Clemens Sports Institute, but, well ....). Maybe they even have stuff online. Also check for info at the Olympic Training Center site. They have great docs and might have some insight online. Also Austrailan Academy of Sport...


2011-09-14 3:49 PM
in reply to: #3686686

Runner
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues
What do you do in training?
2011-09-14 3:59 PM
in reply to: #3686728

Expert
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Golden, CO
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues
Scout7 - 2011-09-14 2:49 PM What do you do in training?


Try to figure out the hydration issues...lol.  We knew going into the race that hydration may be an issue.  My best long training day turned out to be temps in the 50s.  Have used training days to hone in on what works best.  The upped sodium intake has definitely helped.  Going to more water than sports drinks has helped.  It has been a very hot summer so every long training day was a new day to work on nutrition.  It has definitely improved but for IM and even HIM I think it has to get better.  When I saw the forecast for IMMOO I knew there could be problems.  I am still at 205 at 6'1" so I could definitely lose more weight which may help.
2011-09-14 4:02 PM
in reply to: #3686744

Runner
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues
jdbadger - 2011-09-14 4:59 PM

Scout7 - 2011-09-14 2:49 PM What do you do in training?


Try to figure out the hydration issues...lol.  We knew going into the race that hydration may be an issue.  My best long training day turned out to be temps in the 50s.  Have used training days to hone in on what works best.  The upped sodium intake has definitely helped.  Going to more water than sports drinks has helped.  It has been a very hot summer so every long training day was a new day to work on nutrition.  It has definitely improved but for IM and even HIM I think it has to get better.  When I saw the forecast for IMMOO I knew there could be problems.  I am still at 205 at 6'1" so I could definitely lose more weight which may help.


What about training paces versus what you were doing during the race?
2011-09-14 4:09 PM
in reply to: #3686686

Expert
821
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Golden, CO
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues
My pace in the swim was higher..the bike was slower then training and probably more zone 3 then usual. The amount I did run was right at training pace for the IM. 
2011-09-14 4:58 PM
in reply to: #3686686

Pro
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Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues

I know this may seem counter-intuitive, but have you considered that the problem could be too many electrolytes?  You mention several times that you've increased your intake.

Listen to this podcast that Bryancd posted a few months ago before you answer:

http://www.enduranceplanet.com/sports-nutrition-a-new-take-on-electrolytes-and-more/

 



2011-09-14 5:08 PM
in reply to: #3686825

Elite
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Laguna Beach
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues

"I know this may seem counter-intuitive, but have you considered that the problem could be too many electrolytes?  You mention several times that you've increased your intake."

This is a strong insight. It is easy to over supplement electrolytes and sodium. Very easy. One issue this trend creates is dehydration since fluids need to be shunted to the GI system to facilitate the uptake of the sodium. Drink as much as you want- it won't matter if your sodium levels are too high. Making your sodium levels too high is very easy.

The 15 hour Ironman faces some significant obstacles. Their nutrition plan needs to interface well with hydration, depending on the environmental conditions (more heat= more fluid) and needs to facilitate easy uptake and metabolization without the need for copious fluid use in the G.I. system. It's a delicate balance, but one that is more easily moderated to a calorie deficit than a calorie surplus. In other words, you run a calorie deficit- you bonk, you drink a Coke. It gets you moving again. You ingest either too many calories or too much sodium, it is a more difficult thing to clear from the G.I. system and moderate.

It may be worthwhilte playing the calorie and electrolyte equation closer to the bone: Less is more, add more if you feel you need it during the event. Chances are, as your train at longer distances and longer durations your body will rapidly adapt to needing less.

I hope that insight helps. Good job at the race.

2011-09-14 5:15 PM
in reply to: #3686686

Elite
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Laguna Beach
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues

Additional note: U.S. athletes have a tendency to turn their nutrition plans into a real chemistry project. They make them more complex than they need be.

In countries outside the U.S. we see endurance and ultra-endurance nutrition plans that are extremely simple- but effective. Lasan Ahansal has won the 152 mile Marathon des Sables running race in Morocco on water and dates almost entirely. He also ate some naan bread and an orange. No supplements, no salt tabs, 152 miles of running in 120 degree heat. I didn't use salt tabs at MDS either.

If you stick to the basics of hydration and calories you'll likely get the electrolytes you need from the calorie source if you choose well.

2011-09-14 5:20 PM
in reply to: #3686686

Expert
821
500100100100
Golden, CO
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues
I know for a fact that the amount of fluids I take in are usually not enough to keep up with the sweat rate..and the large amount of electrolytes has seemed to help.  However, whether at some point I am taking in too many electrolytes is a valid question which I do not know the answer to. What is the right balance and how do you know you are there?  Unfortunately a lot of this is trial and error.  Such as if I drink Gatorade when I have hit a point of severe dehydration I actually make the situation much much worse..as opposed to Powerbar or Powerade brands. (We figured out it was the type of sugar in gatorade.)  Thus the matter is very complex and thus I am looking for some sort of guidance.
2011-09-14 5:27 PM
in reply to: #3686851

Expert
821
500100100100
Golden, CO
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues
Tom Demerly. - 2011-09-14 4:15 PM

Additional note: U.S. athletes have a tendency to turn their nutrition plans into a real chemistry project. They make them more complex than they need be.

In countries outside the U.S. we see endurance and ultra-endurance nutrition plans that are extremely simple- but effective. Lasan Ahansal has won the 152 mile Marathon des Sables running race in Morocco on water and dates almost entirely. He also ate some naan bread and an orange. No supplements, no salt tabs, 152 miles of running in 120 degree heat. I didn't use salt tabs at MDS either.

If you stick to the basics of hydration and calories you'll likely get the electrolytes you need from the calorie source if you choose well.



Thanks Tom -  I appreciate the advice.  It is very frustrating being a beginner athlete..doing the training and then being done in by nutritional issues. Just hoping for someone to help me even with a starting point for the trial and error that needs to be done.
2011-09-14 5:34 PM
in reply to: #3686686

Champion
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MA
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues

I used to do sweat rate tests and tried to learn to drink that amount...which as I got fitter sweat rate more than doubled...result I had to pee all the time when training.

Sweat tests were usually about an hour.

What I do now is train when going long, weigh myself before and after my 3-4-5+ hour bike and see how my weight is...if it is withing a couple pounds I know I did well. Trusting my thirst to drink the right amount meant drinking a lot less, but it worked out okay for the most part.

I also had a coach that pushed sodium intake so I was taking up to 1000 mg/hour. Like Tom and others have said with wrong levels of sodium at times your body will want to shed water and make you urniate more to balance electrolytes which adds to any dehydration you may have. Since the sodium focus in past years I take in some but nearly as much.

How do you know it was hydration issues that came up and caused DNF?

What happened out on the run that had you stop?

For me when temps get over 90 I have to slow down, drop my power on the bike as I can get in some trouble. IM Canada I was throwing up and cramping on the bike starting at about mile 40 onward. It was 95 and no shade anywhere. I did a number things wrong, but pacing was one. Once it hits 90 at certain effort level on the bike I start refluxing up which can develop into vomiting.  I was bonking, all I wanted to do was lie on the side of road in shade and have cold water...it was such I couldn't do simple math like 112-90= I'm not sure and dehydrated. I was able to recover by going easy on the run, getting my core temp down, get calories and fluid in me. When I finally had to pee, it was like my brain turned on again...it was quite scary in hindsight.

I see you signed up for IMWI next year..hope training goes well!




2011-09-14 5:36 PM
in reply to: #3686866

Elite
3498
20001000100100100100252525
Laguna Beach
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues

Well, you Sir, fought the good fight and stuck with it. That's impressive.

2011-09-14 6:04 PM
in reply to: #3686880

Expert
821
500100100100
Golden, CO
Subject: RE: Suggestions regarding "expert" on hydration issues
KathyG - 2011-09-14 4:34 PM

How do you know it was hydration issues that came up and caused DNF?

What happened out on the run that had you stop?



I have had hydration issues before and have done the sweat tests.  On some I will drink upwards of 50 ounces per hour and will not have to urinate and drop pounds. Unfortunately I have not had to urinate at all during training rides..until my last one which was 4 hours in length..the temp was about 55 degrees compared with the 70 or above that I was usually riding in.

During the race I took in probably 400 (roughly 20 20 ounce bottles) ounces of fluid on the bike and didn't have to urinate. (usually picked up 3 bottles at each aid station) Started the run..felt like I had to urinate and all the came out was blood. My sister-in-law the surgeon was at the run course with me and knows my history - diagnosed the severe hydration - had me walk and drink.  Drank about 80 ounces(filled my fuel belt up twice and drank at two aid stations) in the next 40 minutes and still nothing.  Without providing TMI - pain got progressively worse and we decided there was no way I was going to catch up with the hydration to a point where I could keep walking let alone run.  Decide better safe then sorry. 
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