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2012-01-29 11:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Thanks for the plan Jorge!

Some proof this really works:

Test 1:

20mn @ 215W - 5mn @ 258W

 

Test 2:

20mn @ 237W (+22W) - 5mn @ 287W (+29W)

 

On to the longer intervals. I can't wait. And I reaaaally hope to see the same kind of improvement during Test 3 and Test 4 !!



2012-01-30 6:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

KirkD - 2012-01-27 10:44 AM
axteraa - 2012-01-27 9:41 AM I just plugged your numbers into the spreadsheet I used from v3.0 last year and got 215 for CP.  GoldenCheetah gives 215 as well.  Maybe your spreadsheet has an error in it's calculation?
Thanks for checking. The only difference with the two calculations is the 3-point regression in the old one in which the line is forced to include the origin. I'm just curious if that is technically the correct thing to do or if it actually doesn't matter. 215. ugh. I have a long way to go.

The old spread sheet while correct would provide a bit off #s as it would consider a 3 data point entry. since we only do 2 tests I corrected this to get the best and most applicable #. It might be a bit of an ego buster to go with a lower number but in the long term, it might be better to have you train at the most current fitness level. Still, remember the CP model is based on equations that while rather accurate, still are just estimates. At some point I like to test my real CP with a true 60min all out test before the season starts. 

For now I would go with 215-220w and see how the workouts feel. 

2012-01-30 6:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
Very happy to continue to see all you guys making improvements, I am so happy the program is working for you. Keep it up!
2012-01-30 6:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
It was quite exciting to do a workout last week of 2x18' where the power for the two 18' intervals was higher than my first 20' test.  I remember feeling like I was going to pass out during that first test and certainly couldn't have done it again after a short rest while the two 18' intervals were tough but not crazy. 
2012-01-31 6:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

my second 5x1min at 150%...

I am starting to hate my mondays #painful!

2012-01-31 8:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

Day 57 of 112 - 6x4' @ 103%-108%

Starting the back nine!!!



2012-01-31 10:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
I'm just starting all the fun, and with all the posts recently discussing 6x4', etc. it looks like the fun has just barely begun!

I did Day 1 of Week 4 today - 5x1' @ 115-120% (259-270 for me), with the 5th one 3-5 watts higher. I kept within the range for the first 4 (average in the mid-160s), and then I was a few watts higher for the last one - 272. I'm supposed to use this new number - 272 - for next week's basis, but how do people generally do that? I see a few options:

1) Move all my numbers up by 3-5 watts, so that my range would be 264-275.
2) Shoot for 272 average for sets 1-4 next week, and set 5 shoot for 275-277.
3) Use 272 average +/- 5% (or any other %) next week, or 259-285.

I lean toward 1) since I doubt I could hold an absolute number consistently, and it does at least represent forward progress.



Edited by KirkD 2012-01-31 10:58 AM
2012-01-31 11:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

KirkD - 2012-01-31 12:56 PM I'm just starting all the fun, and with all the posts recently discussing 6x4', etc. it looks like the fun has just barely begun! I did Day 1 of Week 4 today - 5x1' @ 115-120% (259-270 for me), with the 5th one 3-5 watts higher. I kept within the range for the first 4 (average in the mid-160s), and then I was a few watts higher for the last one - 272. I'm supposed to use this new number - 272 - for next week's basis, but how do people generally do that? I see a few options: 1) Move all my numbers up by 3-5 watts, so that my range would be 264-275. 2) Shoot for 272 average for sets 1-4 next week, and set 5 shoot for 275-277. 3) Use 272 average +/- 5% (or any other %) next week, or 259-285. I lean toward 1) since I doubt I could hold an absolute number consistently, and it does at least represent forward progress.

Option #2 is what I do.  What I do to make it easier to target a power avg is setup a screen on my Edge 500 that shows me the lap average power and hit the lap button at the start/end of each interval.  It makes it really easy to see how you are doing on that interval.  Do you have a computer head that will do that?

2012-01-31 11:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
Thanks for the speedy response!

I have Joule 2.0 on which I can capture an interval and watch each interval's average. That would be very doable.

2012-01-31 8:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
I begin my 18week HIM plan this week but I am also on day 50 of the cycling program.  Do you think it will be too much stress on the body to complete the plan while starting my HIM plan.  Thoughts?
2012-01-31 8:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
I begin my 18week HIM plan this week but I am also on day 50 of the cycling program.  Do you think it will be too much stress on the body to complete the plan while starting my HIM plan.  Thoughts?


2012-02-01 1:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
Looking ahead, what is everyone planning to do when the program ends?  I am heading into a run focused block at the end before I start any specific plan for the race season, and I was wondering how to maintain the gains from the program or even continue to improve.  Should I start the program over taking out 1 or 2 workouts a week?  What are everyone's thoughts on how to proceed?  Thanks.  
2012-02-01 11:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

KirkD - 2012-01-31 9:56 AM I'm just starting all the fun, and with all the posts recently discussing 6x4', etc. it looks like the fun has just barely begun! I did Day 1 of Week 4 today - 5x1' @ 115-120% (259-270 for me), with the 5th one 3-5 watts higher. I kept within the range for the first 4 (average in the mid-160s), and then I was a few watts higher for the last one - 272. I'm supposed to use this new number - 272 - for next week's basis, but how do people generally do that? I see a few options: 1) Move all my numbers up by 3-5 watts, so that my range would be 264-275. 2) Shoot for 272 average for sets 1-4 next week, and set 5 shoot for 275-277. 3) Use 272 average +/- 5% (or any other %) next week, or 259-285. I lean toward 1) since I doubt I could hold an absolute number consistently, and it does at least represent forward progress.

And speaking to these workouts... I don't really get it.

I mean a 1 minute interval at 115-120% CP... then see if I can push 3-5w more for the last one.... but I know I can do a lot more as in my 5 minute test. So for me that 120% was 254, yet I can do 300 for 5'... so obviously I can do 300 for 1 minute.

Anyway... I did 270 for the last one, this week I did 270 and then 280 for the last one and I'll do that next week... then I tacked on a "extra shot" from Sufferfest. Not sure if that is good or bad, but I had it in me.

2012-02-01 11:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

rsmoylan - 2012-02-01 12:51 PM Looking ahead, what is everyone planning to do when the program ends?  I am heading into a run focused block at the end before I start any specific plan for the race season, and I was wondering how to maintain the gains from the program or even continue to improve.  Should I start the program over taking out 1 or 2 workouts a week?  What are everyone's thoughts on how to proceed?  Thanks.  

My plan was to do the TR programs Jorge setup there. Do some of thier other workouts and sprinkle in some Sufferfest. I really like TR and that Jorge is helping that out.

2012-02-02 10:00 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

KirkD - 2012-01-31 11:07 AM Thanks for the speedy response! I have Joule 2.0 on which I can capture an interval and watch each interval's average. That would be very doable.

That's what I do

2012-02-02 10:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

MRDAVIDALEXANDER - 2012-01-31 8:08 PM I begin my 18week HIM plan this week but I am also on day 50 of the cycling program.  Do you think it will be too much stress on the body to complete the plan while starting my HIM plan.  Thoughts?

I could but you won't know until you start trying it. See if you can get through the sessions and it is a challenge then start tweaking the pan to fit your needs. I know this is a vague answer but I could give you 10 different ones and none might be necessarily the right one



2012-02-02 10:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
powerman - 2012-02-01 11:32 PM

KirkD - 2012-01-31 9:56 AM I'm just starting all the fun, and with all the posts recently discussing 6x4', etc. it looks like the fun has just barely begun! I did Day 1 of Week 4 today - 5x1' @ 115-120% (259-270 for me), with the 5th one 3-5 watts higher. I kept within the range for the first 4 (average in the mid-160s), and then I was a few watts higher for the last one - 272. I'm supposed to use this new number - 272 - for next week's basis, but how do people generally do that? I see a few options: 1) Move all my numbers up by 3-5 watts, so that my range would be 264-275. 2) Shoot for 272 average for sets 1-4 next week, and set 5 shoot for 275-277. 3) Use 272 average +/- 5% (or any other %) next week, or 259-285. I lean toward 1) since I doubt I could hold an absolute number consistently, and it does at least represent forward progress.

And speaking to these workouts... I don't really get it.

I mean a 1 minute interval at 115-120% CP... then see if I can push 3-5w more for the last one.... but I know I can do a lot more as in my 5 minute test. So for me that 120% was 254, yet I can do 300 for 5'... so obviously I can do 300 for 1 minute.

Anyway... I did 270 for the last one, this week I did 270 and then 280 for the last one and I'll do that next week... then I tacked on a "extra shot" from Sufferfest. Not sure if that is good or bad, but I had it in me.

Ideally for the 5x1' (or 6x4') you will use your 5MP and 20MP #s. That is, if your 5MP is 300w then do 4x1' @300w and the last one 3-5w higher. Then next week you start at say, 303w sets 1-4 and last one push harder. the idea is that every week you increase your interval intensity some and when you retest, within 4-6 weeks, voila, you have increased your 5MP by 10-15w!

Same with the 6x4'. Now, for most people, the 5MP will be around 120%CP and 20MP around 105%CP. but since everyone is and responds different then it is hard to make a general plan match everyone. But if you know the above, then you can use the formula anytime as long as you know your 5MP, 20MP, CP or any specific duration you want to improve at!

Does that make sense?



Edited by JorgeM 2012-02-02 10:09 AM
2012-02-02 10:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
JorgeM - 2012-02-02 9:00 AM

That's what I do



Good enough for me!! 8^)

BTW, yesterday was 4x10' @ (80% for 1 and 3, 90% for 2 and 4). I have to say, that one hurt in a VERY different way.
2012-02-02 10:17 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
JorgeM - 2012-02-02 9:08 AM

powerman - 2012-02-01 11:32 PM

KirkD - 2012-01-31 9:56 AM I'm just starting all the fun, and with all the posts recently discussing 6x4', etc. it looks like the fun has just barely begun! I did Day 1 of Week 4 today - 5x1' @ 115-120% (259-270 for me), with the 5th one 3-5 watts higher. I kept within the range for the first 4 (average in the mid-160s), and then I was a few watts higher for the last one - 272. I'm supposed to use this new number - 272 - for next week's basis, but how do people generally do that? I see a few options: 1) Move all my numbers up by 3-5 watts, so that my range would be 264-275. 2) Shoot for 272 average for sets 1-4 next week, and set 5 shoot for 275-277. 3) Use 272 average +/- 5% (or any other %) next week, or 259-285. I lean toward 1) since I doubt I could hold an absolute number consistently, and it does at least represent forward progress.

And speaking to these workouts... I don't really get it.

I mean a 1 minute interval at 115-120% CP... then see if I can push 3-5w more for the last one.... but I know I can do a lot more as in my 5 minute test. So for me that 120% was 254, yet I can do 300 for 5'... so obviously I can do 300 for 1 minute.

Anyway... I did 270 for the last one, this week I did 270 and then 280 for the last one and I'll do that next week... then I tacked on a "extra shot" from Sufferfest. Not sure if that is good or bad, but I had it in me.

Ideally for the 5x1' (or 6x4') you will use your 5MP and 20MP #s. That is, if your 5MP is 300w then do 4x1' @300w and the last one 3-5w higher. Then next week you start at say, 303w sets 1-4 and last one push harder. the idea is that every week you increase your interval intensity some and when you retest, within 4-6 weeks, voila, you have increased your 5MP by 10-15w!

Same with the 6x4'. Now, for most people, the 5MP will be around 120%CP and 20MP around 105%CP. but since everyone is and responds different then it is hard to make a general plan match everyone. But if you know the above, then you can use the formula anytime as long as you know your 5MP, 20MP, CP or any specific duration you want to improve at!

Does that make sense?





Makes perfect sense to me.
2012-02-02 10:17 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

rsmoylan - 2012-02-01 1:51 PM Looking ahead, what is everyone planning to do when the program ends?  I am heading into a run focused block at the end before I start any specific plan for the race season, and I was wondering how to maintain the gains from the program or even continue to improve.  Should I start the program over taking out 1 or 2 workouts a week?  What are everyone's thoughts on how to proceed?  Thanks.  

since everyone is different it is hard to tell you how much you need to maintain your adaptations. in general, to maintain certain adaptations, you need to stress your body every 5-12 days. So, in my case, I know as long as I do a CP style workout (i.e. 2x20' @ CP) every 8-9 days plus other cycling training (i.e. long endurance steady state), I can maintain my CP pretty well.

If I want to continue to improve it, I need at least 2 style CP sessions (i.e. 2x20' @ CP and maybe some 10-15' @ CP effort within a long ride) every 5-6 days. The trick is the inverse relationship between training load where load= duration + intensity + frequency; but usually as we increase duration, we have to decrease intensity. So, I have to define what are my goals for a training block. if I am preparing for a HIM, then doing workouts around 2-3hrs @ 80-85% of CP will be specific for the race. If I do that plus 2 style CPs, then I have to make sure the load is not too much I can't recover (especially considering the run and swim training).

If you are running into a run focus block, it might mean just running more. Since running places a greater strain in your muscles, you might need more recovery time, thus, it might be a better strategy to maintain your CP during that block. Try doing a CP style session at least every 5-7 days to start and see how that works and balance with the run and other training. If every 7 days you can keep your power #s, then try every 8 or 9 or 10 days to learn what's your limitation.

I hope that helps!

2012-02-02 10:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
JorgeM - 2012-02-02 11:17 AM

rsmoylan - 2012-02-01 1:51 PM Looking ahead, what is everyone planning to do when the program ends?  I am heading into a run focused block at the end before I start any specific plan for the race season, and I was wondering how to maintain the gains from the program or even continue to improve.  Should I start the program over taking out 1 or 2 workouts a week?  What are everyone's thoughts on how to proceed?  Thanks.  

since everyone is different it is hard to tell you how much you need to maintain your adaptations. in general, to maintain certain adaptations, you need to stress your body every 5-12 days. So, in my case, I know as long as I do a CP style workout (i.e. 2x20' @ CP) every 8-9 days plus other cycling training (i.e. long endurance steady state), I can maintain my CP pretty well.

If I want to continue to improve it, I need at least 2 style CP sessions (i.e. 2x20' @ CP and maybe some 10-15' @ CP effort within a long ride) every 5-6 days. The trick is the inverse relationship between training load where load= duration + intensity + frequency; but usually as we increase duration, we have to decrease intensity. So, I have to define what are my goals for a training block. if I am preparing for a HIM, then doing workouts around 2-3hrs @ 80-85% of CP will be specific for the race. If I do that plus 2 style CPs, then I have to make sure the load is not too much I can't recover (especially considering the run and swim training).

If you are running into a run focus block, it might mean just running more. Since running places a greater strain in your muscles, you might need more recovery time, thus, it might be a better strategy to maintain your CP during that block. Try doing a CP style session at least every 5-7 days to start and see how that works and balance with the run and other training. If every 7 days you can keep your power #s, then try every 8 or 9 or 10 days to learn what's your limitation.

I hope that helps!

Jorge,  Thanks again.  I am absolutely in the best cycling shape I have every been in.  This program is brilliant, as are you.  



2012-02-02 12:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
JorgeM - 2012-02-02 11:17 AM

rsmoylan - 2012-02-01 1:51 PM Looking ahead, what is everyone planning to do when the program ends?  I am heading into a run focused block at the end before I start any specific plan for the race season, and I was wondering how to maintain the gains from the program or even continue to improve.  Should I start the program over taking out 1 or 2 workouts a week?  What are everyone's thoughts on how to proceed?  Thanks.  

since everyone is different it is hard to tell you how much you need to maintain your adaptations. in general, to maintain certain adaptations, you need to stress your body every 5-12 days. So, in my case, I know as long as I do a CP style workout (i.e. 2x20' @ CP) every 8-9 days plus other cycling training (i.e. long endurance steady state), I can maintain my CP pretty well.

If I want to continue to improve it, I need at least 2 style CP sessions (i.e. 2x20' @ CP and maybe some 10-15' @ CP effort within a long ride) every 5-6 days. The trick is the inverse relationship between training load where load= duration + intensity + frequency; but usually as we increase duration, we have to decrease intensity. So, I have to define what are my goals for a training block. if I am preparing for a HIM, then doing workouts around 2-3hrs @ 80-85% of CP will be specific for the race. If I do that plus 2 style CPs, then I have to make sure the load is not too much I can't recover (especially considering the run and swim training).

If you are running into a run focus block, it might mean just running more. Since running places a greater strain in your muscles, you might need more recovery time, thus, it might be a better strategy to maintain your CP during that block. Try doing a CP style session at least every 5-7 days to start and see how that works and balance with the run and other training. If every 7 days you can keep your power #s, then try every 8 or 9 or 10 days to learn what's your limitation.

I hope that helps!

 

awesome post...

I was about to ask this a couple week down the road

2012-02-03 12:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
JorgeM - 2012-02-02 9:08 AM
powerman - 2012-02-01 11:32 PM

KirkD - 2012-01-31 9:56 AM I'm just starting all the fun, and with all the posts recently discussing 6x4', etc. it looks like the fun has just barely begun! I did Day 1 of Week 4 today - 5x1' @ 115-120% (259-270 for me), with the 5th one 3-5 watts higher. I kept within the range for the first 4 (average in the mid-160s), and then I was a few watts higher for the last one - 272. I'm supposed to use this new number - 272 - for next week's basis, but how do people generally do that? I see a few options: 1) Move all my numbers up by 3-5 watts, so that my range would be 264-275. 2) Shoot for 272 average for sets 1-4 next week, and set 5 shoot for 275-277. 3) Use 272 average +/- 5% (or any other %) next week, or 259-285. I lean toward 1) since I doubt I could hold an absolute number consistently, and it does at least represent forward progress.

And speaking to these workouts... I don't really get it.

I mean a 1 minute interval at 115-120% CP... then see if I can push 3-5w more for the last one.... but I know I can do a lot more as in my 5 minute test. So for me that 120% was 254, yet I can do 300 for 5'... so obviously I can do 300 for 1 minute.

Anyway... I did 270 for the last one, this week I did 270 and then 280 for the last one and I'll do that next week... then I tacked on a "extra shot" from Sufferfest. Not sure if that is good or bad, but I had it in me.

Ideally for the 5x1' (or 6x4') you will use your 5MP and 20MP #s. That is, if your 5MP is 300w then do 4x1' @300w and the last one 3-5w higher. Then next week you start at say, 303w sets 1-4 and last one push harder. the idea is that every week you increase your interval intensity some and when you retest, within 4-6 weeks, voila, you have increased your 5MP by 10-15w!

Same with the 6x4'. Now, for most people, the 5MP will be around 120%CP and 20MP around 105%CP. but since everyone is and responds different then it is hard to make a general plan match everyone. But if you know the above, then you can use the formula anytime as long as you know your 5MP, 20MP, CP or any specific duration you want to improve at!

Does that make sense?

Perfect sense, and I now feel pretty silly. Darn it... two weeks behind. Didn't even dawn on me to use the 5MP numbers. And I have really been enjoying putting down the power too.... shoot.

2012-02-05 5:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012

I gotta say, a 3 hour and 15 min ride on the trainer with the last 15 mins at 85% is HARD!  Tough mental challenge and the last 15' make it a really tough physical challenge too!

One more week and then the final test week, I'm stoked!

2012-02-05 11:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling program v4.0 2011-2012
axteraa - 2012-02-05 3:35 PM

I gotta say, a 3 hour and 15 min ride on the trainer with the last 15 mins at 85% is HARD!  Tough mental challenge and the last 15' make it a really tough physical challenge too!

One more week and then the final test week, I'm stoked!

 

+1 - That was a tough workout. I attempted to run that afternoon, but bailed after 20 minutes. Nothing left in the legs. Even 2 days later, todays run felt sluggish.

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