General Discussion Triathlon Talk » 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how?? Rss Feed  
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2005-10-01 11:41 AM

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Subject: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
I started training this season, in April. Since then, I've run a 5k, a one-mile beach run, a sprint tri and today an 8k. It's really rewarding to see what my body is capable of doing and I'm having a great time with the training. I can run 10-minute miles fairly consistently now, and my tri 5k was actually 9:46 min/mi.

I want to go faster.

What sort of training/conditioning should I do over the winter to improve my run times? Ideally I'd like to do eight-minute miles, but I don't know if that's realistic or not. Weights? Speed? Hills? (

I'd also like to get a lot faster on my bike, but for that I'm pretty sure I need to a) put my clipless pedals on and learn to use them and 2) just bike A LOT more. That's for another post.

Thanks for any advice I can get.


2005-10-01 12:48 PM
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Coach
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
run, run, run... how many miles do you currently run a week? To run faster you have to run longer, build a base and then you can focus on getting faster...
2005-10-01 1:09 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
amiine - 2005-10-01 1:48 PMrun, run, run... how many miles do you currently run a week? To run faster you have to run longer, build a base and then you can focus on getting faster...


Not that many--maybe 5-10 a week, sometimes less. I don't like it as much as the other two, so I do it less. Gotta get over that.  So if I, say, doubled that, would that be enough?
2005-10-01 1:22 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
I would tell you to do speed workouts on a track or run intervals on your route but I think you need to get your weekly base up first.  My speed workouts helped me drop 13 mins off my 10 mile time. Where I used to run my 10k + route in around 12:00- 12:30 per mile , I can usually do  it in 10:45 - 11:10 per mile.  Not speedy by any means but I am seeing good results.  I usually run 25 - 30 miles a week.  You need to build that base up.


Edited by CVSURF 2005-10-01 1:22 PM
2005-10-01 1:33 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
I would agree with the other posters -- first get your mileage up. Maybe about double what you're already doing.

Then, I would suggest doing at least 3 runs a week -- a long run, a tempo run and an interval run. I followed that (sometimes tossing in an extra run when I had time) and dropped about a half minute off my per mile pace over just a few of months. For example, my 5k time at the beginning of the season: 26:15. This August: 24:45. I think the interval runs (as much as I hated them) really helped.

It took me a little over a year of training (about 8-9 months of it were consistent training) to drop my 10 m/m pace to a 8 m/m pace for a 5k. In that same time period, I also went from a 10:45 m/m pace to a 9 m/m pace for a half marathon. So - definitely possible if you work at it.


Edited by StartingToTri 2005-10-01 1:45 PM
2005-10-01 2:06 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
i''m no speed demon, and 10 min miles are sounding fast to me, but...

Reading Joe Friel''s book, he recommends this early in the winter season, to work mainly on endurance (long slow zone 1-2 runs) and "speed skills". I wish he'd come up with a different name for those, because it has nothing to do with how fast you do them, rather how efficiently you perform the skills. For running, he suggests short easy intervals of running on a slightly downhill grade in a park for 20 seconds at a time, then turning around and hopping/walking back up the hill. Practice perfect form with these.

I think the idea is what others have mentioned, you are building a base with the endurance runs, but also, in a very short workout, get to practice perfect form without pushing your aerobic or anaerobic capacity and breaking form.

If only we could do that with swimming by swimming downhill!



2005-10-01 4:00 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
I average about 20 miles per week, sometimes a bit less...my training speed is sub 9, my race speed is sub 8. Expanding your base will make you faster, no doubt about it....just don't expect to get faster overnight ...there is a lagging effect, body has to absorb the increased load and adapt first...no instant gratification...can take a few months before it becomes really noticeable...
2005-10-01 4:44 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
Thanks everyone!  Ok, I'll work on doubling it over the next few months to expand the base, then work in intervals, etc. for the rest of the winter.  This is gonna hurt, I'm guessing.
2005-10-01 7:21 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
I suggest getting a heart rate monitor, doing the tests to figure out your zones, and then spend lots of time in Z2 or below. Yes, it seems counterintuitive, but to get faster, you have to run slower.

What happens when you are working on your base is that you'll get faster while running at a lower heart rate. Closer to race season, throw in speed work, and you'll be faster.

A caveat, I'm not a coach, but I have one and last winter I spent a lot of time just running slow. My running goals were based in minutes, not miles. My stand alone 5K time last summer was consistently 27:30. After a winter of base and then speed trainning, I ran a 5K of 25:25 at my last tri. And that was after a 1/2 mile swim and a moderately difficult 18 mile bike. I'm a huge believer in spending lots of time in Z2 while you are building your base.

2005-10-01 7:23 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
I started training with a heart rate monitor about 10 months ago, My pace has gone from running 10 minute mile in zone one around 148, now I'm running 7:30-8:00 minute pace for over a 10k run, still at 148.  Look into the heart rate monitor, It's damn frustrating at first but you will notice results over time.
2005-10-01 8:43 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
I agree increasing your mileage will help. But, to run fast; you have to train fast. Intervals are the best. Once a week at least. And vary the workout. I went from an 8 minute mile to 5:10 best. I also dropped my average from 9 minutes to 6:45 for distances over 5K. Oh but, it took 5 years to do it too.


2005-10-01 9:58 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??

This post's title really caught my eye because this is EXACTLY what I did this year.  I went from 10:00min/mile in zone 1 in January 2005 to 8:15min/mile in zone 1 in August/September 2005.

What I realized is that after 6 months of almost all zone 1 and zone 2 running I did about 6-8 weeks of SLOWLY incorporating speed work (you can check my logs for specifics) and what was so amazing is that my run times plummeted in a matter of weeks!!  I was VERY amazed.

Additionally, what I found amazing is that while I didn't do ANY speed training for 8 months, my lactate threshold heartrate remained exactly the same!  174 bpm for 2004 Chicago Marathon and 174 bpm during my V02 max test in mid summer 2005.

What I've learned is that 1 speed workout a week after a SOLID base (12 weeks at least) is plenty to get your min/mile pace down.  I also learned that doing speed work more often than this for more than a couple weeks will actually make you slower because your body does not recovery fully and consequently does not benefit from the frequent speed workouts.

So to directly answer your question.  It's my opinion based on my experience that during these winter months you do all zone 1 runs because if you do any tempo or speed work during these months you'll be setting yourself up for peaking too early into next year AND your speed workouts won't have nearly the potent affect they will with a strong/solid base in your legs.

Anyway, that's just my own personal empirical evidence of moving a several year zone 1 10:00min/mile pace down to 8:00min/mile (give or take) pace.

Hope this experience helps you formulate your own execution to your goal!



Edited by Steve- 2005-10-01 10:02 PM

2005-10-01 11:45 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
what an AWESOME thread... thanks for asking chriscal, because that is exactly my goal as well, and thanks for everyone's response.  Ricci's post has convinced me to do the 30 min TT once the season is over, now I have a plan for 3 months of base work.

It'll be boring, but being able to report a 8:00 miles rather than the current 9:50 will make it worthwhile
2005-10-02 7:13 AM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
This has been a very interesting and thought provoking thread for me . This is what is so great about this site (Thanks Ron, again). Can I throw in a few questions?

I wonder if maybe Dr. Hammer, or anyone who knows something about this, can give us an example of some interval workouts. I think many of us know that they are useful but perhaps do not know the first thing about planning/executing them.

I am also wondering about those of us with a dual purpose. I train, not just for races, but for weight-loss, weight control and overall fitness. For me, getting under 225lbs is more important than getting under 8minute miles. How will running slower affect my weight loss progress?

Thanks,
Mike

Edited by mscotthall 2005-10-02 7:14 AM
2005-10-02 7:21 AM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??

mscotthall - 2005-10-02 6:13 AM This has been a very interesting and thought provoking thread for me . This is what is so great about this site (Thanks Ron, again). Can I throw in a few questions? I wonder if maybe Dr. Hammer, or anyone who knows something about this, can give us an example of some interval workouts. I think many of us know that they are useful but perhaps do not know the first thing about planning/executing them. I am also wondering about those of us with a dual purpose. I train, not just for races, but for weight-loss, weight control and overall fitness. For me, getting under 225lbs is more important than getting under 8minute miles. How will running slower affect my weight loss progress? Thanks, Mike

Changing your body's fuel usage ratio to burn a higher % of fatty acids compared to a higher % of glycogen is the way to....well...burn fat. 

Be sure you are doing no running or biking higher than mid zone 2.  I highly recommend not going out of zone 1 for several months.

Once your fuel usage ratio is changed (which actually takes longer than that to realize a substantial change...but...) then not only will your speed work be more effective in reducing your min/mile pace but your long runs will also be more effective in reducing your weight.

2005-10-02 10:54 AM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
Not to open up a huge can of worms here, but... Can you give me a general/estimated idea of what zone 1 would be when using an HR monitor? I know, this brings up the whole idea of max HR and lactate threshhold, etc. but is it possible for you to give me a ballpark idea without having to do loads of scientific work to find an exact number?

thanks,
mike


2005-10-02 11:04 AM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??

Same as Steve I spent 4+ months doing only aerobic training at zone1-2 of my LT and maybe a few tempo runs now and then but no speed workouts as I was developing a base first. After a solid base I started incorporating speed workouts slowly, doing races and my long distance pace (16 miles or longer) dropped from 8:30 per mile to a whooping sub 7:00!

I agree with the statement about to race fast you have to run fast, but it will only help until you have a solid base. If not you will be limiting your ability to perform better at a higher speed. Yes you might be running faster than before but you won’t be ripping the whole benefit and still you’ll be running slower than your potential…

2005-10-02 11:13 AM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
mscotthall - 2005-10-02 5:13 AM

This has been a very interesting and thought provoking thread for me . This is what is so great about this site (Thanks Ron, again). Can I throw in a few questions? I wonder if maybe Dr. Hammer, or anyone who knows something about this, can give us an example of some interval workouts. I think many of us know that they are useful but perhaps do not know the first thing about planning/executing them. I am also wondering about those of us with a dual purpose. I train, not just for races, but for weight-loss, weight control and overall fitness. For me, getting under 225lbs is more important than getting under 8minute miles. How will running slower affect my weight loss progress?



No problem. Here's several of my favorites. After warming up with a mile or 2....

1) Repeat 400's. Start with 6 and increaseby one each week until you reach a total of 12.
Recovery is half the time it took you to sprint the 400. I usually jog/shuffle a 200.

2) Hard/Easy 200's - 3 miles worth.

3) Decreasing Pyramid. You will sprint a 1200/800/400/200/400/800/1200 (eventually you can add a 1600 to both ends). Recovery time is a jog of half the distance you just completed.

4) Jog/Stride/Sprints. 3-4miles of these. Jog 200 Stride 100 Sprint 100. A stride here is increasing your stride length without increasing speed.

Then DO NOT forget a proper cool down. I hope this helps anyone who is willing. Enjoy the fun. Enjoy the pain. But, don't blame me!
2005-10-02 12:36 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??

amiine - 2005-10-01 12:48 PM run, run, run... how many miles do you currently run a week? To run faster you have to run longer, build a base and then you can focus on getting faster...

Of course a good base is important, but to race faster you have to train faster. That means speedwork/tempo runs. Of course, doing speed work w/out a good base can get you injured.

Also, if you're carrying around any extra weight, a good thing to do in the off season is to get down to your "fighting" weight. It's estimated that you run 2 sec./mile faster for each pound of bodyweight you lose.

Please not that this is not an endoresement for losing excessive amounts of weight.i only advocate getting to a "healthy" weight. i'm also not a doctor of nutritionist. And body fat% should always be your goal, not an absolute weight.

2005-10-02 1:17 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
I am not the best runner, but I was able to make significant strides to drop from 10+min to sub 8 min/mi by spending a lot of time last off season running on a treadmill. It taught me the cadence I would need to hit my desired speed. I would often take that speed and run shorter distances outside to verify that I could maintain the same speed outside. This worked for me.
2005-10-02 2:11 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
Did this this year. Maybe I did it wrong, but for me, I just started incorporating some faster periods during my normal run. Start with speeding up for a block or two (15-30 seconds duration) every mile. Add an additional burst here and there, and when you have 2 or 3 bursts per mile, start doing a longer burst instead of two shorter ones. Your bursts may only be 10% faster than your normal run, but they'll help train your body what a faster pace feels like. As you get to 9 min/mile, you'll find it gets easier to run (mechanically more efficient) as long as you can convince your heart and lungs to keep up.

I may try to do some real speedwork next year.


2005-10-02 2:17 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??

Thanks for all the great tips on this thread.  This is my goal exactly...all the advice will really help!

2005-10-02 3:47 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
That was a really good question...I need to work on building my base also, but want to increase my time. It's taking forever b/c i don't have much time to workout.
2005-10-02 8:13 PM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??
Just wanted to put this back up -- good discussion going here.
2005-10-03 6:43 AM
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Subject: RE: 10 min./mi to 8 min/mi--how??

Thank you for this thread. I will at least double my mileage to get a good base.

My question is, in order to do the longer runs, I might need to go to a walk. Say run 8/walk 2, or run 13/walk 1, or some such.  I could use some guidance on how to build up distance and what distances to work up to, how many times a week? One long run, how long? Short run 2-3-4-5 miles? I have the Tufts 10K coming up next week, i know they will have water stops at every mile. I was thinking i would just walk through the water stops (or try to).

It sounds like i'm saying....."please tell me what to do". 

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