General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Relationship between Cadence and Turnover Rss Feed  
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2005-11-03 1:09 PM

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Subject: Relationship between Cadence and Turnover
This suddenly dawned on me this morning. Target cadence for cycling is 90 rpm. Target turnover for running is 180 bpm. Is the mathematical relationship between these numbers coincidence or based on some physical (or physiological) principle?

Inquiring minds want to know...

- Heidi


2005-11-03 1:12 PM
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Giver
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Subject: RE: Relationship between Cadence and Turnover
Yeah, I dunno? Probably? Cool question, though. Any of you PhD. kinesiologist-types have some insight?

hpadkisson - 2005-11-03 1:09 PMThis suddenly dawned on me this morning. Target cadence for cycling is 90 rpm. Target turnover for running is 180 bpm. Is the mathematical relationship between these numbers coincidence or based on some physical (or physiological) principle?Inquiring minds want to know... - Heidi
2005-11-03 1:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Relationship between Cadence and Turnover
And does anyone swim 180 strokes per minute??

Edited by the bear 2005-11-03 1:20 PM
2005-11-03 1:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Relationship between Cadence and Turnover
the bear - 2005-11-03 1:19 PM

And does anyone swim 180 strokes per minute??


No. At least nobody good for any distance....
2005-11-03 2:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Relationship between Cadence and Turnover
Interesting observation!

I'm guessing something along the lines of rate of muscle twitch vs. exertion or something like that. Kind of like the whole car horsepower approach.

Horsepower has a correlation to torque by a constant and rpms. The more torque at a certain rpm you have, the more horsepower you get. Muscle cars go for really high torque numbers, but cannot achieve that torque at high rpms so fizzle out once the revs rise. High strung smaller engines have very little in the torque department but have higher redlines and their peak torque is much higher in the rev range and so the power builds in a more linear fashion peaking out much later. That's the reason my Prelude with only 205 hp can hit about 145 mph while a Mustang from the same year with 260hp can barely hit 140-ish, but it can kill me in drag race (top speed is a function of horsepower and aerodynamics, straight line acceleration is more a torque factor). All its power comes in a lower range.

The human body obviously can only produce so much "torque," so maybe the higher cadence/turnover results in more power/speed?? I know, probably talking out of my azz here, but I have always found a higher cadence to be more efficient and is how I've always ridden/run.

Edited by Daremo 2005-11-03 2:26 PM
2005-11-03 2:52 PM
in reply to: #277367

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Subject: RE: Relationship between Cadence and Turnover
As I understand it, the run turnover rate is that high at least partially to benifit from some elastic rebound in your connective tissues. And from what I've read, for endurance the bike rate has to be fast enough to keep the individual stroke force lower than what would require fast-twitch muscles. I haven't heard of a connection except that I find it a lot easier maintain that rhythm with my legs when both sports reinforce the same rate. I think your bike cadence could go higher, like Lance does it, but I'm guessing that pushing your run turnover even higher might require more fast-twitch forces from your legs.

Edited by Micawber 2005-11-03 3:00 PM


2005-11-03 4:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Relationship between Cadence and Turnover
here are my thoughts:

assuming you had no training and just got on a bike and a track, i suspect that there would be some relationship to the cadence and running turnover. if non-trained persons settled into a comfortable groove during each of those disciplines i suspect there would be some proportional relationship that boiled down to what hurts too much and what feels right.

for the scientifically minded triathlete however i think the odds of there being a ratio go out the window pretty fast. we have scientific means of determining what an optimum sprinting cadence and long distance cadence is regardless of how it makes us feel. we have to work to be able to maintain that cadence since it does not (normally) come natural to us.

likewise we analyze our stride, modify the way we land on our foot, and generally meddle with our own geometry and mechanics to achieve greater performance. since we all respond differently and each of us trains in a way specific to our own selves the simple probability of it all that some magic ratio exists for each of us (even within reasonable tolerances) is pretty unlikely.

in short we just f*$# with what comes natural to us so much that a "naturally" occuring ratio just isn't, um natural.
2005-11-03 4:36 PM
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Crystal Lake, IL
Subject: RE: Relationship between Cadence and Turnover
Wow, you guys are smart. Makes my instructions for running look pretty dumb.

To run: lean forward until you begin to fall. Stick out foot to break your fall. Repeat.
2005-11-03 8:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Relationship between Cadence and Turnover
I would recommend reading "Racing the Antelope: What Animals Can Teach Us About Running and Life". It is an excellent book. The author, a biology professor at the University of Vermont, evaluates the world of animals around us to determine what the human body is capable of. It is an excellent read. His background is as a runner but much of the topics can be applied to many aspects of exercise.

Richard

2005-11-04 6:18 AM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Relationship between Cadence and Turnover

I've found that my cycling cadence and running cadence are very similar 95rpm (or 90-95 full strides per minute) ...therefore I have found there is carryover from the bike to run and vice versa.

My coach has told me what has been alluded to here...you muscles "learn" and "adapt" to the turnover which helps both running and cycling.

2005-11-04 6:22 AM
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Giver
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Subject: RE: Relationship between Cadence and Turnover
High running cadence has the added benefit of decreasing force per footfall, thereby lessening the risk for impact-related injuries like shin splints.


2005-11-04 7:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Relationship between Cadence and Turnover
I come from the cycling world. There it is preached that by increasing your cadence you shift the work load to the cardio system and lessen the force by the muscles over time. There by you can "save" the muscle groups and can remain stronger longer. Of course there is a limit to effective cadence and limits on each cardio system, hey this sounds suspeciously like LT to me.
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General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Relationship between Cadence and Turnover Rss Feed