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2006-01-05 7:32 AM
in reply to: #314915

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Waterboro, Maine
Subject: RE: bike cadence vs run turnover
I just got a heart monitor and have only used it running twice. I cannot really answer whether my heart race increased. But my gut feeling is that yes, my HR increases when I run at a faster cadence. Maybe an increase of 5 to 10 bpm. But I am not running flat out, or feeling like it is not sustainable. Also, my hips tend to get sore after running (I feel them the next morning when I am coming down the stairs) and I will say that the faster cadence method reduces the pain in my hips - doesn't eliminate it - but makes it barely noticeable.

I still find I have to concentrate on faster cadence. It doesn't come naturally. If I start to daydream (the best part of running!) I start to revert to my usual slog.

As an ex-fieldhockey player, I must have strong calves. My calves never bother me when running .

- Maureen, a 43-year old mother-of-two trying to balance all life throws at me!


2006-01-05 7:53 AM
in reply to: #314915

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Crystal Lake, IL
Subject: RE: bike cadence vs run turnover
This is going a little off topic, but Ken, how does the difference in running on ground vs. running on a treadmill play into the concept of elastic recoil?  Is it similar, or is elastic recoil affected on a treadmill because the track/belt is moving underneath you?  I'm one of the few who actually likes running on a treadmill.  I prefer it outside, but I like the way I can use the treadmill to force me to maintain a specific pace on a longer run when my mind tends to wander.  I've recently started trying to run the way you describe, but let's assume I'm running completely trained in your efficient running style.  Once the weather changes should I stay away from the treadmill because I'm not getting the full benefit of training in your running style?
2006-01-05 8:51 AM
in reply to: #316819

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, Texas
Subject: RE: bike cadence vs run turnover
Brent1812 - 2006-01-04 8:52 PM

TH3_FRB - 2006-01-04 9:47 PM

Did your HR stay about the same as when you usually run that course?

maureen - 2006-01-04 4:46 PMI ran today and focused on higher turnover. I dropped three minutes off my time on a 5.3 mile course. That is proof enough for me!


Yes typical same HR for 'normal' running and 'high' stride rate running!

I just tried running at increased cadence last night and my HR did go up. I had to slow my pace about 15-20 sec/mi to maintain approx the same HR as with my normal low (155 - 160) 12 min/mi cadence.

I also ran some short (3-5 min) stretches at 10 min/mi and 11 min/mi and found it much easier to maintain the high turnover at those paces. I think right now I'm going to concentrate on low HR (MAF) running and then work on leg turnover once my pace increases.
2006-01-05 9:18 AM
in reply to: #316984

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Subject: RE: bike cadence vs run turnover
The economics of treadmill running do differ significantly from running on the ground. Incorrect technique is underpenalized on a treadmill.

Excessive vertical displacement isn't as costly because, at foot-strike, the treadmill bed deflects downward, reducing the energy cost of support (energy expended to catch your bodyweight).

Also, an overstriding runner slows down during flight phase, but if you push up in the air, the treadmill bed doesn't slow down while you're in the air.

Finally, the softness if a treadmill bed reduces the energy stored from the previous stride in the elastic tissues. So techniques that keep the foot in contact with the ground too long don't slow you down as much.

The horizontal dynamics of running over a moving treadmill belt versus moving over a still ground - thought the earth does rotate, we don't count that - are extremely minor. The difference in speed between the runner and the surface is what matters. Whether the speed difference is the ground at 0 mph and the runner at 9 mph or the runner at 0 mph nd the treadmill bed at 9 mph, the dynamics are the same. The momentum of your bodyweight moving forward when you run outside has he same affect as the treadmill belt pulling your foot back.

The treadmill is a very useful tool because we can control speed, temperature, humidity, hills, etc. Definitely don't do all of your in-season running on a treadmill - especially speedwork (both aerobic capacity sets and economy sets) - but the treadmill remains a useful tool and the negatives aren't that big of a deal. Just be aware that your tendency to overstride will be even stronger on a treadmill.

I have a metronome attached to each of my treadmills so that athletes can monitor turnover.

Ken
2006-01-08 10:00 PM
in reply to: #314915

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Subject: RE: bike cadence vs run turnover
Holy crap!!!!!

I have been jogging on and off for 19 years and have been doing wrong the whole time.
When I try to go faster I have always concentrated on a longer stride. No bullshit!! I have never read about biking or running but always assumed bigger stride and less rpms on the bike where better. After reading that article they have me convinced. I will count my steps, get more of them and see how much I improve. If I have been trying for longer strides for 19 years I bet my improvements will be great!!! I cant wait to get in shape and try it out.

Steve
2006-01-09 7:15 AM
in reply to: #314915

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Crystal Lake, IL
Subject: RE: bike cadence vs run turnover
I want to see if this makes sense and if I'm coming at this the right way.  This weekend I did an 8 miler which is really long for me.  I noticed how when I shortened my stride and increased my cadence my breathing got more labored but thanks to this thread I was able to mentally tell myself that I was being more efficient with my legs.  Of course running for over an hour leaves time for the mind to wander and I would catch myself going back to old form, but then I'd get back on track and concentrate.  Here's my question.  When I run relaxed and not thinking about it (longer strides) my upper body feels loose and twists a little with each stride (reminds me of reaching in the pool) and when I concentrate on shorter strides my upper body feels tight and rigid, my arms move forward and back in short motions and I don't twist at all.  Is this good or bad?  Neither one really feels better or worse, they just feel different.


2006-01-10 10:14 PM
in reply to: #314915

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Washington DC
Subject: RE: bike cadence vs run turnover
Reducing the rotation is good. Before your next run, stand for several minutes and see where your HR plateaus. Now rotate the upper body quickly for 30 seconds and see what happens.

The ridig part is not good, but will probably correct itself with time. Keep your arm action short and quick with an arm bemd of about 90 degrees. Try to pump your hands forward and back in front of the shoulders with very little lateral movement. Make sure that your arms pump backward as far as they pump forward. Give it time and relaxation should come.

Ken
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