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2006-02-22 9:45 AM

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Subject: question for the swim gurus
I am at best a bottom third of the pack swimmer. I'm taking an intermediate adult swimming class now to try and improve this. So far, it has made a big difference. However, one thing I'm wondering about is the breathing. The instructor wants us to start breathing every third stroke and eventually work up to every fourth stroke. How important is this?

Thanks.


2006-02-22 9:46 AM
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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus
Stroke/breathing pattern is integral to swimming. It is swimming.
2006-02-22 9:55 AM
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Expert
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus
Breathing is over-rated. DON"T DO IT!!!!!!!

Seriously . . . I breathe every stroke (left arm pull, right arm pull, breathe left side/arm pull).

Seems like what that coach wants is to work on cardio capcity. . .which is great and fine and dandy, but the stroke technique is more important. . .

I say do what is comfortable to you. You will probably get a million different opinions on this.

I think of it like this, in a Triathlon I breathe every stroke during the race and sometimes while I am looking straight ahaead to get my bearings. . .When I am swimming in a Masters meet, say 50 Freestyle or 100 Free then I will not take a breath every stroke. . .crap in the 50 I might take 2 at the most.

Basically putting in the laps and time will make you better. . not if you breathe every 4 strokes compared to 3. .
2006-02-22 9:57 AM
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Champion
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus

uh, yeah, breathing is kinda important. Otherwise, you don't get any oxygen and you die.  And that ruins your whole workout.

Every 4th stroke?  Hmm. I have always heard 3  or 5 is optimal. By breathing on both sides, your roll is more balanced, and for triathletes, the ability to sight on both sides is also helpful. 

2006-02-22 10:06 AM
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus
i've been breathing bi-laterally since i began learning how to swim (~6 wks ago or so). i feel and notice the benefits, but also the negatives. while i am more balanced with even strokes, i tend to get out of breath pretty easily. it's a difficult breathing pattern for me to handle. i may have to breath more frequently during a race.
you'll just have to practice to find out what you're able to do best, in order to generate a good race that doesn't leave you feeling totally wiped.
~B
2006-02-22 10:13 AM
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Science Nerd
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus
Breathing every 3rd stroke is a good thing to learn.  It will help build your cardio/lung capacity.  But, it may not be as important for you right now as improving your stroke.  I would try to do it as much as you can, but not really focus on it.  Spend more of your energy focusing on your stroke.


2006-02-22 10:24 AM
in reply to: #351931

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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus
Artemis - 2006-02-22 11:13 AM

Breathing every 3rd stroke is a good thing to learn.  It will help build your cardio/lung capacity.  But, it may not be as important for you right now as improving your stroke.  I would try to do it as much as you can, but not really focus on it.  Spend more of your energy focusing on your stroke.


this is good advice, although the earlier you get into good habits, the better off you will be in the long run. its true that at the point you are right now, breathing habits shouldnt be your main concern. but, if you get into the habit of breathing every stroke it will be extremely difficult to break later on. ideally you would want to practice good stroke technique with good breathing technique at the same time although what artemis said is probably what you should do. just keep in mind that if you put something like this off, it may come back to haunt you so to speak. good luck!
2006-02-22 10:30 AM
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus
Over the last few years I've worked up to doing lots of things in the water that didn't seem "necessary" at first, and I notice that when I put them together they make a big difference in my comfort in the water and overall endurance. For example: breathing bilaterally, taking fewer breaths, flip turns, and developing mastery of other strokes and kicks make it possible to participate in full length workouts with the masters club and not annoy the hell out of the other swimmers. When I'm not in some tri-ghetto for people who don't have all the skills, I get more out of the workout and I'm more likely to come back. The benefits are in the big picture.
2006-02-22 10:37 AM
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over a barrier
Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus
Your breathing pattern should be based on your distance you're covering. imo. Doing 100 yd sets you may breath every 6 strokes while doing a 500 maybe every other stroke. When you get in the flow you'll know don't bother counting, just breath within the flow.

I very rarely bi-lateral breath...The only time I bilateral breath is if the sun is in my eyes or I need to see someone's position in the other lane.
2006-02-22 10:42 AM
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus

Breathing is key, but it changes depending on how far you're going.

If I was racing a 50 sprint I'd breathe 2 times down 3 times back. 

 For just about every distance over 100 yards I take a breath every 3 strokes (which of course alternates sides).   Somtimes I'll do a breathing drill where I'll swim, say a 200, and breathe on the 3rd, the 5th, then the 7th stroke, then repeat for the whole set.

2006-02-22 11:14 AM
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus
Until Last year I would breath every stroke on the right side. The coach for our local high school swim team suggested I learn to breath every third stroke so I practiced it. I found that when I tried to do sprint distance swims I would run out of air. I have since changed to twice out the right, twice out the left, alternating. I feel better this way,but could never do it if I hadn't learned bilateral breathing. It also helps to know that if I feel short of air I can breath on any stroke I want instead of having to wait for the next right stroke, for example. I haven't swam open water yet(first OW race this spring) but have read that being able to breath out both sides is beneficial when considering waves and wind. I guess what I am trying to say is maybe learn as many ways to breath as you can so you can mix and match to find the best one for you. You may not know whats best if you haven't tried them all.

For what its worth,
Mike


2006-02-22 11:17 AM
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus
The key to breathing in the water is to be comfortable in it. By the time you get a little more experience in the pool, you can breathe on any stroke and not lose a beat. I try not to focus on breathing as much as I do my stroke, breathing has now become "natural".
2006-02-22 11:36 AM
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus

Bottom line is you should be comfortable when you swim. Nothing will tire you more quickly than to struggle. If you're at your best breathing every stroke on the right side or the left side or out a blow hole in the top of your yead, then do that and don't worry about what others say or do. Since you're paying an instructor for help, however, you should probably try to do what he/she says - it might just work for you. And it wouldn't hurt you to learn to breathe bilaterally for short durations for sighting in a race, but do what works best for you.

 

2006-02-22 11:55 AM
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus
The way I read it was that the more you breath, the more oxygen your muscles are getting, and the better off you should be and stay. You can stay aerobic, and stay ready for the remainder of the race. I agree with what everyone else writes...there's a pretty big difference between the distances....swimming in meets and open water swims for a triathlon where you would like your heart rate ready for the bike.
2006-02-22 12:06 PM
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus

My .02 only.  The MOST important thingf for swimming IN TRIATHLONS is not to go into oxygen deficit on the swim (different if it's just a swim).  You don't want to start building lactic acid on the swim, so that by the time you get on the bike you are close to spent. Thus, if you need to breathe every second stroke, breathe every second stroke.  If you can do every third comfortably, do that.  Whatever it is YOU can do, do it. 

 If you starve your body of O2 in the swim, you will go anaerobic during the swim and might screw up the rest of your day.

 

2006-02-22 12:57 PM
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Champion
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus
I have always breathed every 2 strokes. I started that way when I joined a swim team 20 years ago... and I never broke the habit.

I tried to change to every 3 strokes... but I got winded.

Honestly, I think the advice for you to breathe every 4 strokes, is not so good... why?

1) In open water swims, you want to have the ability to breathe on the side of your body where the waves are NOT hitting. For me, I always end up sucking water, if it's hitting on my right side.

2) You want to have your head turning to both sides for extended distances. I swam 1.2 miles in a lake... and I had a horrible neck cramp at the end from only breathing on the right side.

Ultimately though, it's all about what works for you. But, I strongly suggest that you keep the ability to breathe from BOTH sides of your body.



2006-02-22 2:02 PM
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Coach
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus

riverdiver2 - 2006-02-22 9:45 AM I am at best a bottom third of the pack swimmer. I'm taking an intermediate adult swimming class now to try and improve this. So far, it has made a big difference. However, one thing I'm wondering about is the breathing. The instructor wants us to start breathing every third stroke and eventually work up to every fourth stroke. How important is this? Thanks.

Usually instructors/coaches do this with a purpose. Sometimes by breathing every 3rd or 5th stroke it forces you to work a bit more on your reach allowing you to keep you leading hand in front and gliding a bit more. (As you are not rushing to pull and roll to breathe). Also it might help you to find a better rhythm for your rolling from side to side and/or your kick. Finally, it might be because he wants you to become more efficient when breathing by making you swim holding your breath a bit longer than usual. Having bilateral breathing is a great skill to have and master for OWS regardless of your goals. In my case when I am racing, I usually breathe every other stroke and after 10-12 strokes I switch sides, still during my swim workouts I work my breathing every 3rd or 5th stroke during warm up/cool down.

trust your instructor…

2006-02-22 2:03 PM
in reply to: #352140

Elite
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus

okay....  training and racing are different.  Obviously you want to train how you race, but not all training sessions are race sims.

I breathe according to pace.  For a fast TT I by be forgetting the bilateral and going every 2 strokes, just to make sure I'm getting enough air.  I may go all right on one lap and all left on the other, but I just do what lets me have the most air and be comfortable.  Sometimes I'll even do 3 or 4 for a ways, then a few at every 2.  Whatever I feel I need to do.

When I'm doing stroke focused drills, especially catch drills, I will push it out to every 4 or 5 strokes.  Breathing takes a lot of mental concentration and tends to take focus off of form.  I find it easier to perfect my stroke if I breathe less.  Of course I am going slower, so my HR is lower and so is my demand for oxygen.  You will also find by doing this that your actual demand for oxygen is much lower then you think it is.  It's just like running.  When you are going full out at LT pace, you tend to breathe every 2 foot falls and you pant yourself to death.  If you focus and force yourself to breathe every 4 strides then you become more relaxed and breathe easier at the same pace.

and "not breathing enough" won't build "lactic acid" in you system. 

2006-02-22 4:32 PM
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus
I go to a tri specific swim group coached by a former pro and have learnt a LOT.

He has us swimming always breathing to the same side of the pool (ie left up, right back from swimmers perspective) that way you keep your stroke balanced and in a race can choose which side depending on conditions (ie sun, chop etc) but get enough oxygen in that you can concentrate on form rather than the spots developing in front of your eyes! His rationale being "do you want more or less oxygen?".

I wanted to test this and having posted the below

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...

and did time trials over 1km with both (that's the kinda guy i am ;-) ). Not much difference (15secs or so), but felt a lot fresher after the every cycle swim. Therefore to me, I know which one I'm practicing.
2006-02-22 4:46 PM
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Subject: RE: question for the swim gurus
One thing that nobody has mentioned about breathing only on one side is the greater chance of injury on the opposing shoulder.  Each time you roll to take a breath you put greater pressure on the shoulder that is pulling, and if you start swimming 20 or 30,000 yards a month you will notice that extra strain. 
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