General Discussion Triathlon Talk » My Heart Rate training questions for the week Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
2006-02-23 8:38 PM

User image

Member
414
100100100100
Subject: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
When I read about heart rate training, everything seems to talk about specific numbers and pegging them. For instance, in TTB there is a fitness test in which you are supposed to run a one mile test at a specific heart rate, well I have performed the test 3 times and while I have been able to keep my average HR the same over these efforts at any given time it is probably +/- 5 BPM. This is pretty much the same for all my workouts. a long run at AeT ends up being +/- 5 BPM around that value, until it starts to creep and by the end of the run I am battleing to keep it under Zone 2, but that is a topic for another question.......

Just how much HR drift is ok over a long run? If I start my long run at AeT or mid Zone 1 and end at the top of Zone 2 am I going to hard or is this just to be expected over a long run? More food for thought, I tend to sweat ALOT, I can lose 5 lbs during the first hour of a run easy and it doesn't stop there, though I never documented it I know that I have lost at least 8 lbs on a run before and probably will continue to keep losing massive amounts of sweat on the run.


2006-02-23 11:15 PM
in reply to: #353439

User image

Pro
3870
200010005001001001002525
Virginia Beach, VA
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week

I was just reading an article that applies here earlier today.  HR drift over the course of an LSD session of 1-2 hours (at a steady pace) is a sign that your aerobic system isn't sufficiently developed yet.  Sounds like you need to focus on aerobic threshold training.  Read and learn my friend: http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=12685&category=triathlon

I believe the 1 mile test your talking about is to measure progress.  Basically, the goal is to run that 1 mile faster but at the same effort level...more efficiently.  I wouldn't consider a variable HR over the course of a run to be "drift" necessarily.  And I also wouldn't consider 1 mile long enough to draw any conclusions about if you have drift or not.  It takes me a couple miles before my HR even settles in for a workout.  There are lots of things that could impact your HR at any specific point along a run...hills, changes in the surface, wind, even what you happen to be thinking about at the moment.  HR drift refers to the tendency of your HR to gradually increase over the course of a longer session even though your pace is remaining constant.

2006-02-24 12:43 PM
in reply to: #353518

User image

Member
414
100100100100
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
thanks for the info. the drift and variable hr were actually two different questions. Sounds like I actually need to increase my intesity after a brief read. My focus on long days has been keeping the HR in zone 1 and 2, starting in zone one and by the end being at the top of zone 2. If my interpretation is correct this guy wants you to train at or around the top of zone 2 or 20 bpm less than LT.

From reading on Gordo's sight I thought AeT was closer to the top of zone 1. Seems to be some disagreement here.

So is your point that the HR drift I am experiencing is normal for an under trained individual and will become less with training?
2006-02-24 4:48 PM
in reply to: #353439

User image

, Texas
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
As far as I know, "aerobic threshold" or AeT is not a physiological term and doesn't have a scientifically accepted definition. I've also seen it stated that AeT is 40 bpm below the LT.

For the drift, dehydration is a valid reason to cause HR drift. To prevent it, make sure you are getting in enough fluids. If you are losing 8 lbs, you are definately not staying hydrated and you should be taking in more fluids during your run.
2006-02-24 5:08 PM
in reply to: #353439

User image

, Texas
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
For more confusion on AeT, see:
http://www.coachgordo.com/gtips/endurance_essentials/aerobic_thresh...

Here's a snippet:
To guide my athletes, I will tell them that AeT typically lies near the top of Friel Heart Rate Zone 1 (“Friel Zn 1”). I’ve found that in nearly all triathletes, their AeT will be below this point. Indeed, for triathletes, their “weak sport” AeT will normally lie 10 bpm or more below the top of Friel Zn 1. This is important because, as coaches, we often specify Friel Zn 2 as the appropriate intensity zone for endurance training. In doing this we could inadvertently be giving our athletes tempo training in their endurance sessions.


Edited by camy 2006-02-24 5:26 PM
2006-02-24 5:37 PM
in reply to: #354098

User image

Member
414
100100100100
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
I am in fact drinking quite a lot during my runs, this was just an example. But there is no way I am going to drink 5+ lbs of water during an hour run. There is no way my stomach could take that, I doubt many could.


Side question how much fluid can the body absorb while putting forth various efforts? Obviously different for different people but what is the max?


2006-02-24 11:25 PM
in reply to: #354086

User image

Pro
3870
200010005001001001002525
Virginia Beach, VA
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week

Hmmm.  Not sure I agree with this Coach Gordo.  Z1 is primarily a recovery zone and used for aerobic compensation.  While alot of LSD work can and should be done in Z1 I can't understand how AeT could be down in Z1.  My understanding is that AeT defines the upper limit of Z2.  At least that's the way my training zones were established from my VO2max testing.

Based in Friel zones and Ken Mierke's work - Aerobic threshold is the intensity at which almost all of the endurance fibers are being used, but none of the speed-endurance or sprint fibers. Basic endurance training is best accomplished at or slightly below aerobic threshold intensity. Basic endurance training forms the backbone of any good triathlon run training program. This training should comprise a higher percentage of most triathletes’ training programs. Most triathletes spend too much time running medium-hard and would do better to slow down for most of their training. Running at a basic endurance pace, in heart rate zone 2, trains the endurance fibers. These fibers have tremendous capacity for endurance, but not much capacity for speed. They do most of the work in any triathlon. Endurance fibers generally produce 65 – 75% of the energy in for an elite athlete in an Olympic-distance race and well over 90% in an ironman distance race. Slower athletes rely even more on the slow twitch muscle fibers. These muscle fibers can withstand and benefit from enormous training volume if intensity is appropriate.

For a rather lenghty exchange on aerobic threshold have a read through this thread: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=28185&start=1

The article I posted earlier in this thread (by Friel) suggests that in order to fully develop your aerobic system it is important to work the top end of the aerobic zones...top of Z2 if AeT defines your Z2 limit.  That's not to say that you sholdn't be doing LSD in Z1 as well, but be sure to include sessions at AeT...either on their own or combined with your Z1/Z2 LSD work.

camy - 2006-02-24 5:48 PM As far as I know, "aerobic threshold" or AeT is not a physiological term and doesn't have a scientifically accepted definition. I've also seen it stated that AeT is 40 bpm below the LT. For the drift, dehydration is a valid reason to cause HR drift. To prevent it, make sure you are getting in enough fluids. If you are losing 8 lbs, you are definately not staying hydrated and you should be taking in more fluids during your run.

2006-02-25 9:08 AM
in reply to: #354221

User image

Member
414
100100100100
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss "this coach Gordo". He is generally considered one of the top experts on racing long and in fact co-wrote the book Going Long, as well as winning or being in the top of several Ironman and Ultraman events. I am going to post Friel's article over there because as I said it seems to be a contradiction to Gordo's ideas, and they wrote Going Long together.
2006-02-25 6:07 PM
in reply to: #353439

User image

Coach
9167
5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
I believe Joel's use of "this" as an adjective is referring to the (unstated) idea referred to in a previous post, as opposed to using "this" to refer to coach gordo.


I dont agree with this [piece of information] Coach Gordo...

as opposed to

I don't agree with "this coach Gordo"...



I'm certain he knows who coach gordo is... But then again, I could be wrong! In any case tone and inflection is absent in written communication as is all body language, so who knows.

Edited by AdventureBear 2006-02-25 6:08 PM
2006-02-25 10:47 PM
in reply to: #353439

User image

Pro
3870
200010005001001001002525
Virginia Beach, VA
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
I'm not dismissing Gordo...but I don't really agree with what he apparently had to say in the specific quote you posted.  This is only based on my relatively limited experience and what I've discussed with other experienced coaches.  I think it really comes down to how each person is specifically defining their training zones.  The way mine are established, limiting my base work to mid Z1 would be leaving a lot on the table.
2006-02-26 8:54 AM
in reply to: #353439

User image

Member
414
100100100100
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
Joel,

I get what you are saying and it makes sense. So the next question is how long does it take to get up to this HR during a long run or bike?

I am assuming that you don't just start out there and hold. If you could describe how your long run or bike goes with regard to pace and hr that would be great.


2006-02-26 4:00 PM
in reply to: #353439

User image

Pro
3870
200010005001001001002525
Virginia Beach, VA
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
I could go straight to aerobic threshold pace without any problems if I wanted.  The top of Z2 isn't particularly tough for me.  In fact, it's still a relatively easy effort that I could hold for hours without any trouble.  That's something to keep in mind that is probably different for each individual.  I was just talking to Coach Mike and he said that high Z2 work leaves him flat...he needs extra recovery...but he's fine with low Z2 or tempo pace.  So you may or may not find aerobic threshold (high Z2) work difficult to recover from.  It's definitely on of those things you really need to experiment with and learn how your body reacts.  Back to my training...I have been splitting my long runs up and doing 25-50% up at my Z2 limit and the rest in high Z1 and lower Z2.  My typical long run is currently 16-22 miles (2-3 hours) and I'll go out very easy to bring all my systems up to operating temp and get things going...maybe 15-20min trying to keep it ~140bpm or under (top end of Z1).  From there I just kind of settle into a comfortable pace and let my HR respond but I'm not looking to go much past 150bpm  (aerobic threshold) unless I happen to have a hill to climb.  Even then I try to not peak much above 155bpm.  Now that I'm only 6-7 weeks out from a big A race (Boston Marathon) I'm going to start inserting segments of Z3/Z4 pace into my longer runs.  This may amount to 10-15% of the total run divided over a few small blocks.  I want to push my aerobic system past it's limit a bit but not to the point where I require significant recovery time...I need to get back out an dtrain again the next day.  So right now for a typical long run I'd say I probably spend 60% in Z1 and low Z2, 30% near aerobic threshold, and 10% above aerobic threshold.  I fyou aren't approaching an important race then I'd suggest sticking with the top of Z2 as your max and begin with 25% of your long runat that level.  Spend the first half of the run building to that effort level, hold there for the next 25% and then bring it back down into Z1 for the rest of the run.  Treat the end of the run as a recovery which will help your muscles flush and process any accumulated lactic acid...which shouldn't be a concern if you didn't push too hard but it doesn't hurt to be safe.
2006-02-26 6:21 PM
in reply to: #354832

User image

Member
414
100100100100
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
Thanks a lot just the type of advice I was looking for when I started this thread.
2006-02-26 7:58 PM
in reply to: #353439

User image

Pro
3870
200010005001001001002525
Virginia Beach, VA
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
Happy to help...now get out there and train!
2006-02-26 8:00 PM
in reply to: #354958

User image

Member
414
100100100100
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
I have been, problem is that I suspect now that I have been putting in some too easy miles.
2006-02-26 9:54 PM
in reply to: #353439

User image

Pro
3870
200010005001001001002525
Virginia Beach, VA
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
I wouldn't be worried about that.  The downside of going too easy is minimal compared to going too hard.  I would always lean towards being conservative if you're not sure.  Going 1% too hard can result in accumulation of lactic acid and muscle damage that can impact training for several days.  Going 1% too easy just means you didn't squeeze every last ounce of benefit out of that workout but you're still able to get right back to it full power the next day.  The key is knowing where that limit is and just barely pushing it little by little.


2006-02-26 10:00 PM
in reply to: #354086

User image

Extreme Veteran
698
500100252525
SW part of US
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
"As far as I know, "aerobic threshold" or AeT is not a physiological term and doesn't have a scientifically accepted definition."

Technically, this is correct. But, the term AeT tends to be an applicable term used to describe a particular effort level... ala Gordo speak.

Joe
2006-02-26 10:23 PM
in reply to: #353439

User image

Pro
3870
200010005001001001002525
Virginia Beach, VA
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
I personally think it is a very useful term as long as everyone understands the specific definition being used in the discussion.  True, it's not like LT where there is a specific technical definition, but it's more about the concept that "aerobic threshold" stands for.  That's basically what the other long thread I linked came down to...disagreement on the label put on a concept.
2006-02-27 11:34 AM
in reply to: #353439

User image

, Texas
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
Reading back over this, it looks like I was putting down AeT training. That was not my intent. The point I was trying to make was to be cautious when reading about it as differnet coaches will use the same term for different HR ranges; much like "zone 1".
2006-02-27 7:17 PM
in reply to: #355414

User image

Member
414
100100100100
Subject: RE: My Heart Rate training questions for the week
Awesome run tonight!

Shortenened the long run down to an hour and folled Joel's advice went something like this on the treadmill. My LT is 182 and guessing my AeT is 162ish.

5 minutes at 6.4 144 hr
5 minutes at 6.5 144 hr
5 minutes at 6.6 150 hr
5 minutes at 6.7 151 hr
5 minutes at 6.8 153 hr
5 minutes at 6.9 154 hr
5 minutes at 7.0 154 hr
5 minutes at 7.0 159 hr
5 minutes at 7.0 161 hr
5 minutes at 6.4 158 hr
5 minutes at 6.4 156 hr
5 minutes at 6.4 157 hr

Felt good after words have to see how I feel tomorrow. Definately a lot more fun.
New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » My Heart Rate training questions for the week Rss Feed