General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes... Rss Feed  
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2006-04-17 9:41 PM

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Subject: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
Hey all...

This is my first Tri season, and I'm getting back into shape after several years in the corporate world (too many meals on the company credit card I guess). I've always been decent at most sports, and pretty good at a few. However, I suck at swimming and so I am taking swimming classes (at the Y - I feel like I'm 4 years old). Anyway, my current problem is I can't kick at all - well, I kick but go nowhere. So, finally my coach said he's going to make me wear ballerina shoes. :-) Seriously, my feet just aren't flexible enough to point them enough. If I kick hard enough I can actually go *backwards* quite well. Has anyone been through this and overcome it? I would just say forget kicking and work on everything else, but this is just too embarrassing to not fix... so any suggestions are welcome.


2006-04-17 10:20 PM
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Champion
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
There is this guy I swim with... and he kicks... but goes no where.

We figured out that it's because he is kicking too much from bending his knees, and not kicking any from the hip.

I can't imagine that your feet not being pointed is the only reason why you aren't going forward.

2006-04-17 10:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
Its been over a year of practice for me and I still go backwards when I kick. My last tri was a 500yard swim and it took me 19 minutes. I was by far the slowest. I took one on one instruction and a masters class for awhile. Plus all the practicing on my own. But on the bright side I am probably the exception not the norm and I think improvement is right aound the corner.
I believe some people hardly kick at all when they swim. Just enough kick to keep the feet floating.
Good luck I am sure you will do great and someone will have better advice then me.

Edited by blessteve 2006-04-17 10:24 PM
2006-04-17 11:12 PM
in reply to: #398642

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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
Give it a try. My swim coach used to have us swim in sneakers. It helps strengthen your legs. I had a hard time keeping my foot in the correct position for TKD (not exactly swimming) and what I would do is sit at my desk and practice keeping my foot in the proper position. It helped strengthen the muscles .. I'd recommend it.
2006-04-17 11:36 PM
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Coach
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
Concentrate on starting yoru kick in the hip and let teh rest of the leg relax.
2006-04-18 6:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
When I taught swimming the way we overcame this problem was putting fins on the person for a while. It's very difficult to kick from your knees with your feet dorsiflexed with fins on. Once the person got used to the correct motion, we would take the fins back off them and they tended to do better. What a ballet shoe might try and do is force you into plantar flexion but that still won't correct the other biomechanical issues with your kick. Good luck.


2006-04-18 7:36 AM
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Crystal Lake, IL
Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...

Yep, think of your hip as a hinge from which your straight (or nearly so) leg swings.  You have runner's kick which means you don't point your foot and you bring your knees up.  When I want to focus on a specific form I repeat a short phrase over and over while I"m doing it.  For this I say, "The hinge is the hips, the hinge is the hips" over and over again while I'm swimming.  As far as pointing the toes, most people with a martial arts or gymnastics or dance background have very little problem with this.  Other people just don't have much reason to practice pointing their toes.  It sounds ridiculously simple, but it is something you need to practice.  Lay on your back and do a slight leg lift, maybe 4-8 inches.  Then focus on lenthening your legs and point the toes.  Really bend your foot into it.  Repeat.  Add a little scissors motion to emulate kicking in the pool.  Don't bicycle your legs like you would do for an ab workout, just scissors kick up and down while keeping your legs looooooong.

Good luck.

2006-04-18 7:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...

Frankly, I'd say your best bet is to stop kicking.  Focus on improving your balance, your rotation, and your catch.  These three will do much more for your overall time than your kick.

Don't worry about 'not fixing it' or being embarrassed.  There are some triathletes that don't kick (and others that only kick minimally).  I'm one of them -- it uses a lot of energy and doesn't benefit me very much.

Like you , I have a terrible kick.  So during races and most training, I try not to kick at all.  (When I do side-balance drills, I almost always use fins so that I can focus on the balance.)  Yet, over the past year, I've managed some significant improvements (to me) in my swim time by working with a coach and focusing those other areas. 

2006-04-18 8:19 AM
in reply to: #398793

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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
i second dave. it's not a big deal.
kick minimally just for balance and proper rotation until you master the rest of your stroke. plenty of us don't kick and save the legs for the bike/run.
2006-04-18 8:19 AM
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New England
Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
I have trouble kicking too... it is very frustrating.

I was watching a strong (and fast) swimmer in the pool the other day. She only kicked twice for every 6 to eight strokes she took with her arms.

I have heard that kicking is important, but triathletes do not focus on it as much because you need to conserve energy in your legs for the bike and the run. Is this true?
2006-04-18 8:24 AM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
I don't profess to be an expert, but I am another one in the "no kick" camp..I kick only often enough to help with balance...usually, it is minimal to no kick at all.


2006-04-18 8:38 AM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...

you have to kick.  There is a difference (BIG DIFFERENCE) between no kick and minimal kick.  No kick and your legs act like anchors draging you down.  Minimal kick will maintain body position and help with your rotation.

the fastest way to learn how to kick?  Go in the deep end and tred water.  Staying upright, start kicking hard and lift your hands into the air.  If your kick is good you will stay above water.  If not, you sink like a rock.

2006-04-18 9:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
Having a few years of ballet dancing in my past, I don't think your swim coach knows anything about dance or dance shoes. If he is referring to toe shoes, a ballet dancer can stand flat footed in them. There is nothing about the shoe that makes you point your toes. It is the years of training and good technique that allows you to get up en pointe.

Tell your coach to take a few ballet lessons!

Dance lessons will probably allow you to develop a better kick but it won't be because of the shoes. Many dancers swim as part of their training.

Edited by maureen 2006-04-18 9:24 AM
2006-04-18 9:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
vortmax - 2006-04-18 2:38 PM

Go in the deep end and tred water.  Staying upright, start kicking hard and lift your hands into the air.  If your kick is good you will stay above water.  If not, you sink like a rock.



Ahhh you can't beat a good old baptism of fire.
2006-04-18 10:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
I think your coach is telling you that you have no flexibility in your ankles (in regards to wearing ballet shoes).
If you kick with your feet flexed, your not going to go anywhere. Try working on ankle flexibility by sitting on the backs of your heels with toes pointed. Also, invest in some Zoomers -they not only help you go faster, but are designed to increase ankle flexibility.
2006-04-18 12:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
I was gong to mention what Jellyfish just posted. You can really make a difference in ankle flexibility by sitting on the feet. Do it slowly at first!

I also am a non-swimmer who attended a Total Immersion workshop this year. I kick only enough to help with the balance as I rotate from side to side. Since TI teaches to drive from the hip during rotatation I just have no need to kick any more than that. If you get your balance right kicking almost becomes an option.

Fred


2006-04-18 1:33 PM
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Supersonicus Idioticus
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
I'm like the 2nd worst kicker of my team of 40... ankle flexibility is everything! If it's flexible, your ankle can kick water backwards without bending your knee as much (i.e bent knee = more drag). I kick 1min, 5sec per 50m Long course meters. Start now, and get them better - before every workout do your ankle rotations. When sitting down at your desk, take off your shoe, and write the alphabet with your toes.

For extreme cases, grab a 30cm by 70cm slab of wood, fix a strap to the front of it to hold your feet down. Sit on the ground, and slide the board forward to stretch your feet.
2006-04-18 1:45 PM
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Supersonicus Idioticus
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
also, if it makes you feel better, I have a friend who is horrible at kick, a fairly good swimmer, and placed 6th at Canadian Junior Nationals and went to the ITU worlds in Japan
2006-04-18 1:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...

So Fresh So Clean - 2006-04-18 2:45 PM also, if it makes you feel better, I have a friend who is horrible at kick, a fairly good swimmer, and placed 6th at Canadian Junior Nationals and went to the ITU worlds in Japan

Yeah...but that's Canada.

I kid.

I am and always have been about the worst kicker on every swim team I've been on, but still was a decently fast distance swimmer (4:34 for 500 yards, 4:03 for 400 LC meters). It's all about ankle flexibility.

And a word of caution about trying to increase your ankle flexibility: it is good for swimming, but not so good for running, as it decreases your lower leg stability and that can lead to, among other things, a propensity towards shin splints.

2006-04-18 10:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
So Fresh So Clean - 2006-04-18 2:33 PM


For extreme cases, grab a 30cm by 70cm slab of wood, fix a strap to the front of it to hold your feet down. Sit on the ground, and slide the board forward to stretch your feet.


For us Southerners in the States, is that like a standard size? like saying "grab a 2x4"? Cause 30cm x 70 cm just sounds totally random to me.
2006-04-19 8:13 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
Thanks everyone for your thoughts - I think I'll go out and get a pair of zoomers ot practice with, but it's good to know that there are plenty of others who aren't good at kicking as well. I'll try kicking from the hip a little more as well and see what that does.


2006-04-19 11:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
Chiming in at the last minute here... but before dropping cash on a pair of zoomers, something simple I used to with kids when I taught swimming was to try putting a pair of socks on your feet and try to kick them off. You have to have the right "flop" in your foot (ie loose but slightly pointed) to get them to come off. If your feet are too rigid you can't get them off.

It is a cheap and easy way to practice... and you find a new use for the mismatched socks in your drawer.
2006-04-19 6:19 PM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
So little of your actual propulsion comes from your legs. I do a simple two beat kick just to keep them afloat and help my roll. Of course in a race, you have your wetsuit on which will keep your legs afloat quite nicely.
2006-04-20 8:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
2006-04-20 9:38 AM
in reply to: #398642

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Subject: RE: Swimming coach wants me in ballerina shoes...
I'm also chiming in a little late here. I am a no kick to minimal kick person. I was on a swim team from 5'th grade through HS and never had a strong quick even though I was a strong runner. When I swim in a pool I use the "leg buoy" (not sure what its called) to keep my legs up and keep the balance - when doing intervals I kick. When swimming in open water my wetsuit (full body) does the job so I don't have to kick. I don't have problems with balance at all in the wetsuit. If you don't have a wetsuit and don't mind paying the money, get one. they are amazing how much easier they make swimming. I didn't want to buy one last year, and can't believe that I ever thought that way.
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