General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Some (not so) esoteric questions on swim cadence and power Rss Feed  
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2006-04-19 12:29 PM

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Coach
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Subject: Some (not so) esoteric questions on swim cadence and power
OK, it's pretty well accepted and easily understood that there is an inverse relationship in cycling to your cadence and how big of a gear you are in. If you are mashing at 60rpm, just switch to an easier gear and you can spin at 90. It's also pretty well accepted that it's generally better to spin at a higher cadence for better efficiency and less wear and tear on your knee joints. Debating the merits of higher cadence like lance or lower like jan are beside the point.

Now on to swimming. We hear a lot about stroke length and less about cadence. When people get the "ah-hah" that now they are swimmign easily, but not quickly, THEN we get to talking about the CATCH and PULL or the power phase of swimming.

This is where I am leading...

I recently had some feedback on my swim form that showed I was letting my hands "slip" through teh water, losing a lot of potential pull. In exchange, I could swim a relatively higher cadence and long yardage with little energy expended.

For teh past 2 weeks, I've been focusing on not lettign my hand slip and keeping my pull phase as powerful as possible by grabbing as much water as possible...no cheating, slipping or sculling. My pull is much stronger now, much more powerful. My muscles are getting stronger too, and I'm a little bit faster. But I can't swim nearly as far wihtout being short of breath and my heart racing.

I am still rotating my body and using my lats and core...but if your arms are noodles, you still won't move anywhere. So I feel good about the extra work that my arms have been doing.

It dawned on me that in swimmign, there is no way to "change gears" without altering yoru stroke mechanics. I can "slip" through the water (fishlike), and feel smooth, low heartrate, higher cadence and still be somewhat fast (9:30 for 500yd), or I can concentrate on a full catch and pull phase of my stroke, be faster, more powerful, but not go as far, and not be able to stroke as fast.

In contrast to this, when biking, changing gears does not change your form at all, but it allows you to spin faster or slower. In swimming, "changing gears" means changing form.

TI was a great help to me, but now I feel like it's actually hindering me because it let me cheat on my pull phase in order to slip through the water. There are TI drills that actually have you pull your lead arm straght back without meeting any resistance at all. This isn't an anti TI post, but I've just come to this sudden realization about swimmign form.

My hunch is that what I'm doing now is good, and I need to give it time to build up strength and endurance again. But with my swim from Alcatraz coming up in about 7 weeks, I don't want to be gasping for air half way through and get swept into the pacific.

Has anyone else thought about this? Do I need to suck it up and continue building my upper body strength while concentrating on my new form?


2006-04-19 1:04 PM
in reply to: #400291

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Lethbridge, Alberta
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Subject: RE: Some (not so) esoteric questions on swim cadence and power
At a recent masters swim workout, the coach had us working with this exactly. She had us do some swimming with higher cadence strokes but slipping water to keep the effort easy, contrasted with long, slow cadence, hard pulls for distance. She had us start with the long hard pulls as an effort to get our lowest stroke count for a length. Towards the end, she then had us try about 8 strokes of hard fast pulls and finish the lap with hard slow pulls to rest. Maybe when you shift to the hard pulls you have to slow your turnover down more to stay aerobic? You still pull hard but not as often.

Edited by Micawber 2006-04-19 1:07 PM
2006-04-19 1:12 PM
in reply to: #400291

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Some (not so) esoteric questions on swim cadence and power

Swimming is like running and not so much like cycling. When you ride a bike, you have the mechanical advantage of gears. You don't have that with swimming or running. In swimming, you can do two things to make yourself go faster:

  • increase your rate (cycles per second or CPS).
  • increase your distance per stroke (DPS).

These things are not mutually exclusive, but at some point for every swimmer there's a point where you become less fast by increasing wither one of those things: you either end up "spinning your wheels" or you end up gliding too much to eek out as much possible distance for each cycle.

By doing swimming "golf" counting your strokes and adding that to your time to get the lowest possible total, you'll get a feel for what your sweet spot is: the most efficient (fastest) combination of DPS and CPS

2006-04-19 1:13 PM
in reply to: #400291

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Subject: RE: Some (not so) esoteric questions on swim cadence and power

I disagree that you have to change your stroke mechanics to change gears.  I think you reach that conclusion because it's harder.  Yes, at some point if you are sprinting your a$$ off, your mechanics may start to suffer, but for me, that doesn't happen until I am about 90%+ effort. 

It's all relative - power in the pull + cadence = speed.  All the while slipstreamed in the water.  You need to get to a point where you have the power AND the cadence.  And as you've found out, it's a lot harder than just having one or the other.

The other day I was swimming next to a guy who is a very very fast swimmer, 100s on the :55.  This was during a longish set.  To look at him you'd never think he was fast, and his form is a little wonky, but he gets the job done.  As I turnded to breath, I saw him going past me, I was doing a decent effort, about 75%, good form, but he was still beating me.  His cadence was higher than mine.  I started matching his stroke for stroke and voila, suddenly we we swimming the same speed.  But I couldn't do it for as long as he did........



Edited by ChrisM 2006-04-19 1:14 PM
2006-04-19 1:30 PM
in reply to: #400291

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Expert
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Subject: RE: Some (not so) esoteric questions on swim cadence and power
In swimming, both your stroke and cadence are important. Taking bigger, harder strokes will build strength, but it isn't always the most efficient way to go. You need to balance your stroke and cadence and figure out what works best for you. However, you should probably err on the side of more powerful stroke and slower cadence in training, as this will build strength and eventually you'll be able to do that stroke faster.

I think the point of your post seemed to be that in order to up cadence, you need to sacrifice your form to some degree, and I think that's correct. Personally, when I'm trying to swim faster, I probably don't reach that extra inch or two out in front, I probably take a little narrower and less powerful catch, and I might not get every inch in the finish, but I can do that a lot faster and it makes up for the loss of form. That's why I can probably do a lap with 10 or 11 strokes, but typically take 12 or 13 when pushing it. What I do NOT do is drop my elbows, turn my hands sideways, etc. It's more of skimping on the parts of your stroke that you have the least strength at.

-Matt
2006-04-19 1:44 PM
in reply to: #400291

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Some (not so) esoteric questions on swim cadence and power
The main problem I encounter when switching from the TI focus to a more traditional swim approach was that TI does not teach you how to develop different swimming speeds. Last year when I was still using the TI approach I was doing a workout with friend (great swimmer) and he questioned me about just having one swimming speed. We were following a workout including easy, steady and hard efforts.  Well apparently my speed was pretty much the same all the time and when trying to “speed up” my mechanics will fall apart. At 1st I though he was talking Chinese to me. I also thought (same like you) that there was no way to switch swimming speed gears without affecting my stroke mechanics. I though that attempting to swim faster was wrong because I had to “waste” energy and increase my stroke count.

It took me months in the pool to realize that it is possible but it does take time and lots of work. At first I was swimming 100s faster than before but I was totally spent and out of breath. (Sort of like when I began swimming) It was very hard to understand the trade off between one form and the one I spend months developing (TI). I had awful days in which I wasn’t able to pass this daunting plateau. But I had others where I could swim fast and comfortable. There were many times when I doubted the new swimming form and I wanted to switch back, but I am so happy I stick to. My times are faster than ever, for real!

Be patient. IMO it’s worth it, in particular if you are trying to improve your times in the long run. You will be very please when things finally begin to click and all of the sudden you can swim faster, longer and still feel very comfortable as you feel right now with TI. The best part is that you will feel and look stronger


2006-04-19 1:48 PM
in reply to: #400372

Master
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Subject: RE: Some (not so) esoteric questions on swim cadence and power
ChrisM - 2006-04-19 2:13 PM

I disagree that you have to change your stroke mechanics to change gears.  I think you reach that conclusion because it's harder.  Yes, at some point if you are sprinting your a$$ off, your mechanics may start to suffer, but for me, that doesn't happen until I am about 90%+ effort. 

It's all relative - power in the pull + cadence = speed.  All the while slipstreamed in the water.  You need to get to a point where you have the power AND the cadence.  And as you've found out, it's a lot harder than just having one or the other.

The other day I was swimming next to a guy who is a very very fast swimmer, 100s on the :55.  This was during a longish set.  To look at him you'd never think he was fast, and his form is a little wonky, but he gets the job done.  As I turnded to breath, I saw him going past me, I was doing a decent effort, about 75%, good form, but he was still beating me.  His cadence was higher than mine.  I started matching his stroke for stroke and voila, suddenly we we swimming the same speed.  But I couldn't do it for as long as he did........



For a (still beginner after one year), like me, taking the "swim like fish" theory from TI was something I was trying to do for a long time but with no speed gains (& slightly more frustration). There is an older guy that usually swims at the same time that is doing the same to me as your conterpart did (seeminly less effort with more speed).
I'll keep a closer eye on him as you did and try to match the same. This guys does have a higher cadence as well. Finding that "sweet spot" is something I should've been looking for all along and I think I may be close to it with a recent discovery in slight change in form with higher cadence recently.

Good post all.
2006-04-19 1:54 PM
in reply to: #400291

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Some (not so) esoteric questions on swim cadence and power

In swimming, the recovery portion of the stroke requires raising the arm up and over the water.  From the standpoint of propulsion this is lost energy.  In contrast to running where your feet are barely raised above the pavement and cycling where the upstroke can even add propulsion, swimming's recovery losses are much larger.  By getting the most distance from each stroke (reducing strokes per lap) you reduce the percentage of energy lost on the recover stroke.  Ok.  So longer strokes are better for efficiency.  You get a better grip on the water by keeping your forearm and hand perpendicular to the direction of the stroke from the front quadrant of the stroke all the way to the finish.  This is better for long strokes and is the key thing to work on your stroke (once you get your body narrow and balanced to reduce drag.).  So that too is always a good thing.  Now the tricky part, how hard do you pull against the water?  Here just as in cycling and running there is an optimum pull force for maximum efficiency and speed that is just below the lactate threshhold for your swimming muscles.   In swimming, the force of the pull is proportional (more or less) to the velocity of your hand and arm through the water so it is directly related to the stroke rate.   You can have good form and swim at a slower rate to stay right at the optimum efficiency point for your swim muscles.  The difficulty is that you can feel the grip on the water more easily at a faster rate and harder pull so you tend to pull too hard.  You will have to slow your stroke and add some glide to get back to the point where you are down in comfort zone for effort.  It is down there, but you have to find it again.

I agree with the swim golf advice.  It is an approximation but it is about right for measuring efficiency and taking out the speed dependence.  I think you will have an ah-ha moment in the next couple of swim sessions and all the pieces of the new stroke will fit together again. 

TW

2006-04-19 4:16 PM
in reply to: #400291

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Some (not so) esoteric questions on swim cadence and power
THanks to everyone for great advice!  I have been having this EXACT problem, AdventureBear, but couldn't describe it nearly so succinctly so I'm really glad you asked
2006-04-19 4:33 PM
in reply to: #400291

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Some (not so) esoteric questions on swim cadence and power

BTW, longer strokes “might” be better for efficiency but not for speed, hence the need for every swimmer to find a sweet spot between distance per stroke and frequency...

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