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2011-11-19 10:31 AM

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Subject: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?

I am looking to break the 5:00 mark on a HIM next year.  Here are my splits:

Swim00:36:36.10700:36:36.107160+00:10:50.727116+00:10:50.72719+00:09:32.99800:01:44.0 min/100yds
T100:03:16.01200:39:52.119104+00:01:39.96470+00:01:37.54211+00:00:52.469none
Bike02:41:52.14803:21:44.26798+02:40:52.62282+02:40:52.62212+00:14:53.59520.8 MPH
T200:01:32.49603:23:16.763122+00:01:13.16484+00:00:55.71114+00:00:44.927none
Run01:45:51.26205:09:08.02592+01:45:38.09572+00:32:22.25110+00:12:41.11800:08:04.8 min/mi

So what should I focus this off season to get under 5 hrs?

 



2011-11-19 11:00 AM
in reply to: #3908188

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Master
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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?

focus on getting faster.

j/k.  In all honesty bike and run.  Just maintain swim.  Easier at this point to sharpen up on the bike and run and drop 10-15 minutes then to bother shaving off 5 minutes on the swim.  Bigger bang for the buck.

Also, course and conditions are huge.  I know my sub 5 at Rev3 quassy although close in time to my sub 5 at Timberman was a much more superior performance that would have been probably 10 or 15 minutes faster at Timberman.  It makes a huge difference...especially on the bike.  Some places you can go 2:20 or 2:40 with the same effort.

If you just pick a course other than Mooseman and get a little more fit over a year you easily have sub 5....that's kind of cheating though.  I would opt for tackling the same course.  You can easily shave it off just being consistent.  My first HIM at Timberman I went 5:35 and then the next year I went back and did 4:57...you can drop 10 minutes....I didn't do it this year but was under 5 at Quassy and it easily would have been <4:50 at Timberman based on the course differences.  Your first couple years in the sport all you have to do is be consistent and you'll get faster and faster gradually but it adds up over the course of a year.

2011-11-19 11:36 AM
in reply to: #3908188

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?
If you're willing to run a different course, just go to Augusta and the current will take 9min off your swim.

Seriously though, just having seen tons of race splits, it seems that your run is there. 1:45 HIM run split is what the 5:00 guys run.

Get the bike to 21.8 and the swim to 1:35/100 and you're there. (Didn't do the math, but I'd bet on it shaving 9min). THAT seems like it should be do-able in a season.

E
2011-11-19 12:05 PM
in reply to: #3908188

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?
Sorry, double post.

E

Edited by E-Dub 2011-11-19 12:06 PM
2011-11-19 1:10 PM
in reply to: #3908188

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?
I'd attack all three disciplines.  Your splits look reasonably balanced to me (the bike may be a bit slow).  How did the run feel?  Did the wheels come off at the end, or did you feel strong all the way through?  If you felt very strong, then you can push the run a bit harder during the race -- if you blew up on the run, then you need more bike fitness.  Of course, better bike fitness is ALWAYS a good thing.

How about the swim?  What's your heart rate coming out of the water?  If you feel gassed at the end of the swim, or if the first few miles of the bike are spent recovering from the swim, then you'd benefit from better swim fitness.  I know, swim training is a real time sink, but I personally think people underestimate how much the swim can take out of you if you are undertrained for it.

I broke 5 hours this year for the first time.  For me it came down to (1) learning what pace I could sustain on the bike/run so that I didn't die on the run, (2) LOTS of bike training (easy rides, long rides, interval rides, etc), and (3) an increased willingness to suffer during the latter half of the run. 

2011-11-19 3:58 PM
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2011-11-19 4:29 PM
in reply to: #3908188

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?
Ok....how about 4:45?
2011-11-19 4:56 PM
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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?

Another question is how close was your 5:09 to your perfect race?  What I mean is that a perfect race is rare, so to go sub-5, you need to be capable of going closer to 4:30-4:45 to allow for less-than-perfect execution and race day conditions.  If you feel your 5:09 was close to perfect, then the improvement has to come from fitness gains.  If the 5:09 was farther off your current potential due to execution, then it could be as simple as getting part of the gains from fitness, plus another 10-15 minutes by working on the mental aspects and learning to execute more efficiently, then you end up crushing 5 easily, maybe even hitting 4:45.

2011-11-19 5:21 PM
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2011-11-19 6:11 PM
in reply to: #3908188

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?
Perhaps you could fill in a little more on what you did to get to get your 5:09, and what is your background. Are you a new swimmer or have you been swimming for years? Do you come from a running background? Were you running 20 mpw or 50 mpw leading up to the HIM? Are you already at your optimal race weight? One poster said that your run was already fine, so you should work on the other two, but for others it could be that there's more to be gained in the run. 
2011-11-19 6:26 PM
in reply to: #3908188


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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?

Your bike and run times are pretty good!!   36 min for a 1.2 mile swim is I think were you are lacking.    Also, I am guessing that swimming takes a lot of energy out of you therefore your bike and run could naturally improve. 

I would try to swim longer sets (if you swim in a pool) such as:  swimming 200s or 300s.   This will get your endurance up.



2011-11-19 7:33 PM
in reply to: #3908188

over a barrier
Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?
Bike and Run....Still some low hanging fruit on the bike.
2011-11-19 7:36 PM
in reply to: #3908188

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?
I agree with Fred, but assuming that your real question is how to take off 10 minutes on the same course under similar conditions, I think that the lowest hanging fruit is probably on the bike (I'm taking the actual course into account here -- otherwise there is no telling).  But that judgment depends in part on the assumption that the difference between your HIM run time and your open HM time is not too drastic.  (If it is, then whether your run training or your bike training/performance is to blame is an important question as well, and harder to answer without more details.)  But I wouldn't discount the swim either, especially if you had to wrk very hard to get that time.
2011-11-19 9:32 PM
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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?
Bike and run
2011-11-19 10:34 PM
in reply to: #3908188

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?

Bike faster.  

Pardon me for asking some obvious questions.  Just looking for speed.  

Are you riding a tri-bike?  Aerohelmet?  race wheels?  Have you ever had a professional bike fit?  Power analysis, video analysis.  Is your bike training solo, or have you done some group rides with hammerhead cyclists?  While racing are you using heart rate? powermeter?  Are your 10mile bike splits consistent? Negative split?

Are you in the aerobars 99% of the bike leg?  

At your 5:09 did you nail your nutrition?  How was your fuel level during the run?  

2011-11-20 7:05 AM
in reply to: #3908188

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?
While I agree that 5:00 is pretty arbitrary and very course dependant, since it is a nice round number, it is a pretty common goal. What I would wonder beyond your race splits is:

1) What is your 1000m TT?
2) What is your power (or speed) for a 40km TT?
3) What is your 5k, 10k or HM best?

Shane


2011-11-20 10:36 AM
in reply to: #3908188

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?

Thanks for the feedback.  I realize its an arbritray goal but if I am looking to do better next year I need a goal time....right?  I would want to the hit the sub 5 on the same course.  

I am fairly new to the sport.  I started Spring of 2009.  I had no previous background in any of the sports (couch potato basically).  Actually, I could barely run 1 mile in March of 2009.  My logs are up to date.  I average about 15-20 miles per week(run).  I think I peaked at 30 miles running when training for the race.  I was injured going into the race with a stress reaction. So I think I held back a bit on the run.  But I didn't have any problems with nutrition,etc.  I weighed around 188 lbs for the race.  I have about 8-10 lbs to lose.  I ride a tri bike with aero helmet. I was on the aerobars about 80% during the race. 

5K: 17:31

10K: 42:00

HM: Never done one before

Never completed a bike TT.

2011-11-20 12:07 PM
in reply to: #3908188

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?

If you can get in a standalone swim of 1k-2k (yards or meters) at threshold it would be helpful to see where your swim is at.  What do you have for bike times or power output? Do you have power output for anything from 20 min to an hour? Any kind of bike standalone bike event?  Standalone is to see what your bike capability is. This will help with recommendations on how much concentration each of these should get.  For both, recommendations will likely concentrate on doing more at or near threshold, and it might help determine pacing.

With the run times posted, I would think more run volume would help. To build fatigue resistance.  You have a decent 5k time, but it seems to fall of going to 10k. Experience in pacing will help (in all 3 disciplines), and so will biking as the run can depend quite a bit on that.



Edited by brigby1 2011-11-20 12:14 PM
2011-11-20 2:31 PM
in reply to: #3908893

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?
Based on this:

MRDAVIDALEXANDER - 2011-11-20 12:36 PM

5K: 17:31

10K: 42:00



You need to spend more time running; not necessarily trying to get faster but just build run volume as this indicates that you lack endurance. A 17:31 5k predicts about 36:30 10k and a 1:20 HM. If you can address your run endurance, with a well executed swim and bike, should be looking to run 1:25-1:30 for a HIM.

However, in terms of truly making progress, you need to spend time working on your bike and swim. Your swim time would indicate that you should be able to make solid gains in the water; I would suggest you aim to spend 3-5x/week in the pool with a coach on deck for at least a couple of workouts over the winter and spring and you could easily shave 5 minutes off your swim time next year. As for the bike, use the winter to follow Jorge's plan and hit the spring ready to log some serious miles; mostly hard, sometimes easy. Focus on building threshold and spend a great deal of time riding at this intensity and also lots of time at race intensity. If you accomplish both of these and pace well, you should be able to go (well) under 5:00 next year.

Shane

2011-11-21 9:36 AM
in reply to: #3908188

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?
Also, check your transition times compared to others for that race and see if there is improvement you can make.  If this was your first HIM, I think the experience factor will be helpful at your next one.  Sub 5:00 should not be a problem for you.
2011-11-21 11:30 AM
in reply to: #3908188

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?

I'm with Shane on this one. If you have a 17 anything 5k, you should be doing a Lot better on the run.

With consistent training, and enough running, you should go sub 5 with No additional speed improvements.



2011-11-21 12:02 PM
in reply to: #3908188

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?

Swim  - 2 minutes faster

T1 - 1 Minute faster

Bike - 4 minutes faster (21.4mph)

T1 - Fine

Run - 2 minutes faster (7:47 pace)

9 minutes.  There you go!  Sound achievable?  Now get out there and train!

 

2011-11-21 4:08 PM
in reply to: #3909061

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?
gsmacleod - 2011-11-20 2:31 PM Based on this:
MRDAVIDALEXANDER - 2011-11-20 12:36 PM 5K: 17:31

10K: 42:00

You need to spend more time running; not necessarily trying to get faster but just build run volume as this indicates that you lack endurance. A 17:31 5k predicts about 36:30 10k and a 1:20 HM. If you can address your run endurance, with a well executed swim and bike, should be looking to run 1:25-1:30 for a HIM. However, in terms of truly making progress, you need to spend time working on your bike and swim. Your swim time would indicate that you should be able to make solid gains in the water; I would suggest you aim to spend 3-5x/week in the pool with a coach on deck for at least a couple of workouts over the winter and spring and you could easily shave 5 minutes off your swim time next year. As for the bike, use the winter to follow Jorge's plan and hit the spring ready to log some serious miles; mostly hard, sometimes easy. Focus on building threshold and spend a great deal of time riding at this intensity and also lots of time at race intensity. If you accomplish both of these and pace well, you should be able to go (well) under 5:00 next year. Shane

My whole basis for asking how to go to 5:09 to 5:00 was to figure out what I should focus on this winter.  It seems like I should spend the bulk of my time biking and swimming.  But if I focus on this how much should I be running? Miles?

2011-11-21 6:51 PM
in reply to: #3910614

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?
MRDAVIDALEXANDER - 2011-11-21 6:08 PM

My whole basis for asking how to go to 5:09 to 5:00 was to figure out what I should focus on this winter.  It seems like I should spend the bulk of my time biking and swimming.  But if I focus on this how much should I be running? Miles?



IIWY I would run 5-6x/week with a long run of 75 minutes and the other runs of 30-45 minutes. But this would depend on what you are used to running and how much time you have to train.

Shane
2011-11-29 8:51 PM
in reply to: #3908893

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Subject: RE: 5:09 HIM to sub 5:00?
MRDAVIDALEXANDER - 2011-11-20 10:36 AM

I am fairly new to the sport.  I started Spring of 2009.  I had no previous background in any of the sports (couch potato basically).  Actually, I could barely run 1 mile in March of 2009. 

This is very similar to my story. One item I'd suggest is taking a look at the book 'Racing Weight' by Matt Fitzgerald, if you haven't already. Two years ago before I did my first sprint tri, I was al ost 60 lbs heavier and not very active. I did my first HIM (Pigman) at my last tri of the year with a 5:09 time. Next year's goal is to do 4:50 (shave off 20 min). Getting lean(er) makes one bike and run faster at the same effort. Also, have fun finding your go-fast.
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