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2011-12-03 11:29 AM

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Subject: Pit Bull at the Day Care

I have a border collie that has boundless energy.   We have been taking her to doggie daycare a few days a week for a while, especially in winter with the short days of sun, and long days of work for me.   She loves going, and the staff says she loves to play, and they are very affectionate with my dog.    I had a conference to go to this week, and they are all involving into the evenings.  Even though it was in town, I boarded Mandy at the day care and checked into the hotel.

Thursday I get a phone message that Mandy was hurt in some "rough play".    They did reach my husband (who is out of town across the state), and vet care was arranged at our vet.  By the time I got on the phone with them, the manager was not in, and would not be available until the next day.  I spoke to one of the nice staff members who told me about what the incident was.   She was pinned down by a pit bull and her shrieking attracted the attention of the pack and another dog got ahold of her too.   The manager cleaned her wounds and they put them in the kennels.   Mandy was not in “group” but let out on her own into the yard for periods of time.   She “started putting her back leg down to walk just today” which prompted the question of when the attack took place.   “Tuesday”.  

WTF – my dog is wounded on Tuesday to the point of blood and inability to walk on 4 legs and I am told on Thursday?   When I questioned the young woman more about why I was not called earlier, she didn’t know what to say – agreeing that was not right and finally said “the manager was very flustered that day and I guess it was not a priority to him”.   I felt bad for her having to cover for him.

The swelling is coming down, and the puncture wounds look ok.   She still hops around the house holding her leg up about half the time, so we are going to get that checked again today.   She must have been so scared to be hurt and away from home.   I know, she is a farm breed, but she is accustomed to a town life style and sleeping on the couch, and getting lots of love.   Thinking of her hurt and all alone for two days breaks my heart.   Even if I was also out of town, I do “have people” in town who could have gotten her and taken her home to their house, had they deemed it logical to call me Tuesday

I get the rough play and the risk at doggie day care.  I do.   She has had some scrapes and such before, and I do not freak out.    I am also not anti-pit bulls to the point of destroying them or even banning them via law from a town, but owners should not think that they are the same as other dogs.   Years ago my friend went to the pound and picked out a goofy looking puppy that  turned out to be a pit bull.    That dog was sweet to man, child and dog for all the years of her life (16), but my friend acknowledged the responsibility of having such a dog, and care was taken to keep her in controlled environments.   At the time I had a Rottweiler mix as well.  All dog owners, of course, need to be responsible, but I do think some breeds require some extra thought.   I spoke yesterday with an acquaintance who has pit bulls and he thought it was ridiculous that anyone with a pit bull would think that putting them in general day care was a good idea.   They would interpret a heal-nipping border collie’s play as aggression and respond with more aggression.    They do not play the same.

Anyway, I am going to make an appointment with the manager to discuss this.   Not that we can ever take our dog their again, but I have a few things to ask of and to say to the guy.



2011-12-03 11:43 AM
in reply to: #3924758

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
100% agree Mary. You have to talk with the manager and get some questions answered. How horrible for your dog. I wonder if they were hoping your dog would be fine and not even discuss the incident with you. Why else would they wait 2 days after the attack?
2011-12-03 12:30 PM
in reply to: #3924769

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
Yeah, I think they were hoping the injuries may go away or become less noticable to downplay the severity, IMO.  I would also be tempted to take your dog to a vet for a carefull once over, and make the day care pay for it.  It's the least they can do.  And give you your money back for the "care" they provided.

Edited by Kido 2011-12-03 12:32 PM
2011-12-03 12:45 PM
in reply to: #3924758

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
Oh man! I am so sorry for you and your pup That really, really sucks. I would be SO angry!!

I love dogs, and have nothing against pit bulls. They make wonderful pets and can be some of the sweetest, gentlest dogs I know. But, just like with ANY breed, it's important to understand what they've been bred for. For example, if someone had small children, and they wanted a dog, I wouldn't recommend a herding breed. If someone had rabbits or other small pets, I wouldn't recommend a terrier. And if there is a breed that should never be allowed to play with other dogs unsupervised, it's a pit bull. There are tons of pits that will play wonderfully with tons of dogs, for hours and hours, but that doesn't undo the genetics of what a pit was bred to do, and what they are capable of. Obviously, any dog can injure another dog in the blink of an eye, and plenty of them do, but nearly all other dogs were not bred specifically for fighting and killing other dogs. Pits make wonderful human companions, and I think they are more trustworthy with humans than other dogs.

I hope your pup feels better soon, and that you find another doggie daycare that she likes!
2011-12-03 3:43 PM
in reply to: #3924758

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care

We just came home from a follow-up at the vet.   He checked her out and felt around the leg alot.   He doesn't think anything is broken, and did not order an x-ray at this point.    We go back on Wednesday again.  

 

2011-12-03 4:36 PM
in reply to: #3924758

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care

Sorry to hear that your pup was injured.  Glad they are doing radiographs and hopefully they will start some pain medications (and antibiotics if indicated).  I sure would given the presence of puncture wounds.   

Regarding the risk - I don't see this as a "Pit Bull" issue.  There is inherent risk for injury, including serious injury and death, in any pack situation.  I think I understand why people use doggie days cares but I think they're a horrible idea for this reason.  I know in most cases the dogs get a great workout and mental stimulation, but the uncontrolled nature of the play makes it dangerous and as an owner participating in this, you have to accept some of the risk. 


That being said, it was 100% inappropriate for the kennel not to contact you.  You should have been involved at time zero, and your dog should have received immediate vet care (maybe she did based on the original post?)  That should be your main talking point when you meet with the manager.   The breed of the offending dog is well beside the issue.



2011-12-03 11:05 PM
in reply to: #3924960

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
bootygirl - 2011-12-03 3:43 PM

We just came home from a follow-up at the vet.   He checked her out and felt around the leg alot.   He doesn't think anything is broken, and did not order an x-ray at this point.    We go back on Wednesday again.  

 

Oh, good.  Really glad she seems to be OK.  I saw border collie + carrying the leg and immediately thought of my border collie mix who has destroyed both of her ACLs (requiring two surgeries).  But if he felt around her knee he surely would have known if that was the case.

Back to the original topic...as the owner of a dog aggressive dog...fights happen.  I keep my dog out of every situation I can think of where a fight might start (she would NOT go to doggie day care).  However, dogs will be dogs and sometimes fights will just happen.  I wouldn't read too much into it being because it was a pit.  Kinda like kids in the playground...fights just happen.

If I were the day care I would supervise the dog that started it a bunch until they can prove it was an isolated incident.  And I'm sure they MUST have multiple play yards and can rearrange the residents of each yard as many times as needed to make sure each yard has harmony.

2011-12-03 11:56 PM
in reply to: #3924758

Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care

I use to have a Malamute.  It was a great dog for me and everyone loved him.  However he woudl hunt and kill everything.  He never killed any other dogs, but he did not play well with others.  I know I had a hunter and I woudl never leave him alone with other dogs. 

When we had our daughter he was old and was having alot of problems.  He was fine around her but very protective.  His head was bigger then her body.  We did not figure he would survive another winter so I put him down.  The suffering he was in and the slight chance he may snap or bite the daughter was not worth the risk.  My point is owners of dogs need to understand the breed and make choices that prevents anyone from getting hurt.  Another dog, in your case, maybe a smnall child next time.

Fast forward to today and our Goolden Doodle, best dog I have ever owned. 

2011-12-04 12:25 PM
in reply to: #3924758

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care

My dog has been to a few cageless boarding places.

He went to one regularly that was ran out of someone's home with a max of 10 dogs per day. He did wonderfully here. 

We went to another place that was a total $hit show. Seriously. 25+ dogs in open play with 2 or 3 people watching. He was the dog that would get involved when another dog was distressed, so we never took him back there. 

PLEASE don't say pit owners shouldn't take their dogs to these places!!! 

You said "They would interpret a heal-nipping border collie’s play as aggression and respond with more aggression. They do not play the same." You are stereotyping. Some dogs of various breeds don't see that as play, not just pits. The concern should be in how the dog handles it. If my dog has a dog trying to play with him in ways he doesn't like, he turns and snaps at the dog. Generally, the dog gets the message and leaves him alone. That's just how dogs work.

I'd be much more concerned that you didn't hear about the incident until Thursday when it happened on Tuesday. If they are irresponsible about that, how responsible are they about screening the dogs they let in??

2011-12-04 6:38 PM
in reply to: #3925230

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
Puppetmaster - 2011-12-04 12:56 AM

I use to have a Malamute.  It was a great dog for me and everyone loved him.  However he woudl hunt and kill everything.  He never killed any other dogs, but he did not play well with others.  I know I had a hunter and I woudl never leave him alone with other dogs. 

When we had our daughter he was old and was having alot of problems.  He was fine around her but very protective.  His head was bigger then her body.  We did not figure he would survive another winter so I put him down.  The suffering he was in and the slight chance he may snap or bite the daughter was not worth the risk.  My point is owners of dogs need to understand the breed and make choices that prevents anyone from getting hurt.  Another dog, in your case, maybe a smnall child next time.

Fast forward to today and our Goolden Doodle, best dog I have ever owned. 

Funny, I have gone from Malamutes to a mini Golden Doodle   My male mal, who is no longer with us, was a mal I could trust even around the cat.  My girl, who is still with us, cannot be trusted around much of anything.  I rescued her as a young adult and she was never trained.  Despite my best efforts, I couldn't get her to a place where I felt she'd be ok around small animals and children.  I still don't think she'd attack a kid but I have heard some horror stories about mals and attacks on kids. Bottom line is that some breeds are more dangerous and need special handling.  But so too, some individual dogs need special handling.

2011-12-06 7:02 AM
in reply to: #3925495

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
ratherbeswimming - 2011-12-04 1:25 PM

PLEASE don't say pit owners shouldn't take their dogs to these places!!! 

I'd be much more concerned that you didn't hear about the incident until Thursday when it happened on Tuesday. If they are irresponsible about that, how responsible are they about screening the dogs they let in??

I agree 100% with both of these statements.  The lack of communication is a MAJOR issue.  The dog fight...not so much.

And my sister-in-law's pit bull is the dog her day care uses to greet and feel out new dogs to get accepted into the care.  She is the sweetest, friendliest, most playful dog ever.  I'm not sure how you can say you aren't anti-pit but then say pits can't go to day care?  A cocker spaniel with an irresponsible owner can do just as much damage.



2011-12-06 7:12 AM
in reply to: #3927701

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
mehaner - 2011-12-06 7:02 AM
ratherbeswimming - 2011-12-04 1:25 PM

PLEASE don't say pit owners shouldn't take their dogs to these places!!! 

I'd be much more concerned that you didn't hear about the incident until Thursday when it happened on Tuesday. If they are irresponsible about that, how responsible are they about screening the dogs they let in??

I agree 100% with both of these statements.  The lack of communication is a MAJOR issue.  The dog fight...not so much.

And my sister-in-law's pit bull is the dog her day care uses to greet and feel out new dogs to get accepted into the care.  She is the sweetest, friendliest, most playful dog ever.  I'm not sure how you can say you aren't anti-pit but then say pits can't go to day care?  A cocker spaniel with an irresponsible owner can do just as much damage.

This is my feeling as well.  It doesn't matter the type/breed of dog - any of them can be bad tempered and bite at another dog. 

The much bigger concern here is that the daycare not only didn't get your dog cared for immediately (WHY?), but they were also completely negligent in contacting you about the event (again, WHY?). 

2011-12-09 8:21 PM
in reply to: #3924758

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care

After two more followup visits to the vet (my vet is so great - no charge), all signs of infection are gone, the swelling is gone, there appears to be no bone or joint injury, and Mandy is signed off for ball chasing and park play.

After three drive by stops at the place, I finally spoke to a manager, but not the one who exercised the poor judgement.   There seems to be alot of intercompany issues about incoming and outgoing managers, and the owners being slow to realize that when they go from 15 dogs to 75 dogs, they need more structure to their proceedures, not just a larger space and more staff.   I spoke with "incoming" manager, who has been ther 5 months.   He says Mandy is one of his favorite dogs, and it has really bothered him that we were not called and that she did not get treated sooner.  He was surprised that the owner had not called to ask how she was.    I was assured that my dog was not a fight instigator, and that the other dog seemed fine when at day care, but not fine when boarding, and they will not put that dog in play with other dogs again.  The other dog involved is not invited back.    He told me that they have no full breed pits in their place, but they do have some mixes.   He expressed some frustrations with the company, as he wants to institute changes but the outgoing manager won't give a date to leave, so he is tied for now.   I told him I would be happy to help move that along.   He gave me the owner's card, and I will follow up with the owner.   I told him (incoming manager) that I have lost faith with the management of the company, and I could not trust them with my dog at this time.  I like "incoming manager" and if he can actually manage, I think I might deem the place worthy of my Mandito again.

Regarding the breed issue.  Yes, any dog can hurt another in a blink of an eye, and any dog can become very agressive for a variety or reasons.    I do not doubt that pitbulls can be excellent dogs for some owners.  As I said, my friend's Pit, Brewster, was the sweetest dog for its whole life.   But I will not feel bad about "stereotyping" a breed as having the traits that they have been bred to have.   Breeds are created, by man, to have certain traits to perform certain tasks.  What has a pitbull been bred for?    The first pitbull website to come up from google http://www.pets.ca/dogs/articles/pit-bull-information/  says "It is common knowledge however, that the Pit Bull breed was developed for blood sports: Bull baiting, bear baiting, and later, dogfighting. "  That is a pro-pitbull site.  I work with a guy who breeds pitbulls, and he agrees with what I am saying here.

While in the vet's office for the last followup, an old cowboy came in with his old border collie.  We acknowledged each other, and as I looked from my dog to his, I said "these two look like they have gone through the same troubles".  He told me "my neighbors three pitbulls got ahold of her - one on her neck and the other two worked over her haunches".  His neigbor swore they had never done anything like that before.  Cowboy said "well, you can never day that again, can you?".  The neighbor did  pay for all care and vowed never to walk off leash with them again.  I am bettin' that cowboy doesn't ever go walking his dog without a gun ever again.

The only other dog that has gone after Mandy has been a pitbull (unattended at dog park by a real jerk of a guy - that dog wound up being destroyed by animal control after several more attacks.  Yes, I do blame the jerk of a man for that one - that poor dog had no chance).

From imperical evidence alone, I would be an idiot to tell my dog "go play" with another pitbull.   



Edited by bootygirl 2011-12-09 8:24 PM
2011-12-09 8:58 PM
in reply to: #3924758

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care

Unfortunate situation, certainly should have been contacted the day of, fights happen and oh yeah, you're still completely off the mark with Pit Bulls.  Being a former trainer and someone who had operated some of the premium boarding facilities in the country (no longer do), I think I can speak intelligently when I say the breed is not the issue.  Personally, I think the issue with Pit Bulls is solely do to the "type" of people that are attracted to the breed and their (lack of) training and socialization.  By type I mean people that want a "big mean dog that will kill people if they come close".  As far as "my dog isn't an instigator", that's almost impossible to know without actually having been there.  Being a border collie, which inherently means a herding dog, there's a chance that its herding instincts weren't well received by another (more dominant) dog.   However, I will say there is a right way and a wrong way to do things and it sounds  like they followed the outline for the wrong way.  

 

Glad to hear your pup is ok!  You want a hard phone call to make, it's the one when the dog (for no reason other than natural causes) passes away while in your care. 

2011-12-09 11:14 PM
in reply to: #3933110

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
thebigb - 2011-12-09 8:58 PM

Unfortunate situation, certainly should have been contacted the day of, fights happen and oh yeah, you're still completely off the mark with Pit Bulls.  Being a former trainer and someone who had operated some of the premium boarding facilities in the country (no longer do), I think I can speak intelligently when I say the breed is not the issue.  Personally, I think the issue with Pit Bulls is solely do to the "type" of people that are attracted to the breed and their (lack of) training and socialization.  By type I mean people that want a "big mean dog that will kill people if they come close".  As far as "my dog isn't an instigator", that's almost impossible to know without actually having been there.  Being a border collie, which inherently means a herding dog, there's a chance that its herding instincts weren't well received by another (more dominant) dog.   However, I will say there is a right way and a wrong way to do things and it sounds  like they followed the outline for the wrong way.  

 

Glad to hear your pup is ok!  You want a hard phone call to make, it's the one when the dog (for no reason other than natural causes) passes away while in your care. 

I do agree that there is a subset of pit owners that don't do any favors to the reputation of the breed or other owners.   As I said, my friend's dog, Brewster, was the sweetest dog ever.  

When I wrote "I was assured my dog was not an instigator of fights", it was in response to me asking directly if she is a pest to any dog who doesn't  want to play with her and if she did do the heel nipping type of behavior there.   When I take her to a park - she is primarily interested in chasing her ball, not playing with other dogs, so I wanted to know more about how she does play in that atmosphere.    The guy said that she does not do too much "herding" of other types of dogs, and that she generally sticks to playing with her "kind", running fast as "teammates", and they are not too interested in other types of dogs.   Eye witnesses say she did not seek out this dog  that harmed her at all - he "cornered" her and would not let her get away, and the staff were on it as fast as they could be.   She put no injury on the other dog.

I guess the long and short of my opinion of the boarding facility is that not everyone is an idiot, just the guy in charge the two days that my dog was injured, alone and in need of vet care, when he chose not to call me.   The rest of the staff is very sorry that they did not have the authority to call me.    As I said, I will see what I can do to expedite the exit of "outgoing manager" by wriiting to the owner.    

2011-12-12 9:38 PM
in reply to: #3933082

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
bootygirl - 2011-12-09 9:21 PM

After two more followup visits to the vet (my vet is so great - no charge), all signs of infection are gone, the swelling is gone, there appears to be no bone or joint injury, and Mandy is signed off for ball chasing and park play.

After three drive by stops at the place, I finally spoke to a manager, but not the one who exercised the poor judgement.   There seems to be alot of intercompany issues about incoming and outgoing managers, and the owners being slow to realize that when they go from 15 dogs to 75 dogs, they need more structure to their proceedures, not just a larger space and more staff.   I spoke with "incoming" manager, who has been ther 5 months.   He says Mandy is one of his favorite dogs, and it has really bothered him that we were not called and that she did not get treated sooner.  He was surprised that the owner had not called to ask how she was.    I was assured that my dog was not a fight instigator, and that the other dog seemed fine when at day care, but not fine when boarding, and they will not put that dog in play with other dogs again.  The other dog involved is not invited back.    He told me that they have no full breed pits in their place, but they do have some mixes.   He expressed some frustrations with the company, as he wants to institute changes but the outgoing manager won't give a date to leave, so he is tied for now.   I told him I would be happy to help move that along.   He gave me the owner's card, and I will follow up with the owner.   I told him (incoming manager) that I have lost faith with the management of the company, and I could not trust them with my dog at this time.  I like "incoming manager" and if he can actually manage, I think I might deem the place worthy of my Mandito again.

Regarding the breed issue.  Yes, any dog can hurt another in a blink of an eye, and any dog can become very agressive for a variety or reasons.    I do not doubt that pitbulls can be excellent dogs for some owners.  As I said, my friend's Pit, Brewster, was the sweetest dog for its whole life.   But I will not feel bad about "stereotyping" a breed as having the traits that they have been bred to have.   Breeds are created, by man, to have certain traits to perform certain tasks.  What has a pitbull been bred for?    The first pitbull website to come up from google http://www.pets.ca/dogs/articles/pit-bull-information/  says "It is common knowledge however, that the Pit Bull breed was developed for blood sports: Bull baiting, bear baiting, and later, dogfighting. "  That is a pro-pitbull site.  I work with a guy who breeds pitbulls, and he agrees with what I am saying here.

While in the vet's office for the last followup, an old cowboy came in with his old border collie.  We acknowledged each other, and as I looked from my dog to his, I said "these two look like they have gone through the same troubles".  He told me "my neighbors three pitbulls got ahold of her - one on her neck and the other two worked over her haunches".  His neigbor swore they had never done anything like that before.  Cowboy said "well, you can never day that again, can you?".  The neighbor did  pay for all care and vowed never to walk off leash with them again.  I am bettin' that cowboy doesn't ever go walking his dog without a gun ever again.

The only other dog that has gone after Mandy has been a pitbull (unattended at dog park by a real jerk of a guy - that dog wound up being destroyed by animal control after several more attacks.  Yes, I do blame the jerk of a man for that one - that poor dog had no chance).

From imperical evidence alone, I would be an idiot to tell my dog "go play" with another pitbull.   

Glad to here your dog is doing well!

Anytime I've taken my dogs to the dog park the only dog breed that ever caused regular trouble was the pit bull.  And these were different dogs on different occasions, and I always gave them the benefit of the doubt.  If a pit bull was there, one of my dogs would usually end up being chased, bit, harassed by a pit bull.

Our neighbor got a pit bull in the fall of 2010 and early on (as a 10-11 month old pup) it had somehow come into our yard and attacked our two dogs a total of 3 times in just a month.  The 3rd time I told my neighbor, as he came to collect his dog, that I would kill the dog next time and showed him the baseball bat that was literally sitting at my backdoor.  I told him I prefer he just control his animal.  I'm very mama bear when I hear my dogs howling in pain from an attack and I get even more upset when I have to come in between a vicious dog fit.  After the confrontation, I then I took my injured dog to the vet, got $1000 in vet bills racked up, and gave it to them.  They got rid of the dog realizing that it was a huge liability.

I will never give pit bulls the unbridled benefit of the doubt like I used to.  I really used to believe that a pit bull was like any other dog.  Unfortunately my experience tells me I must assume the worst for my safety and the safety of my dogs.

Andi



Edited by Anditrigirl 2011-12-12 9:38 PM


2011-12-12 10:03 PM
in reply to: #3924758

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care

I'm so glad to hear your dog is OK. Completely unacceptable for the day care. I would have been irrate.

I had a Rottwieler that unfortunately became dog aggressive as she got older. There are many dogs that are dog aggressive. After an incident with the neighbors dog, the Animal control officer that came over was not in the least concerned. "Dogs do that". She said. The worst of all are small Terriers.

Growing up I had a Norwegian Elkhound. Sort of a Malamute and German Shepherd for hunting Elk. The males of the breed will attack any other male dog. Females are fine.... male, it's on, no warning, no questions asked, no stopping. Great dog. Incredibly smart, loyal, and affectionate... huge problem keeping him secure.

Many many dog were bread for working... and working mostly meant hunting. Jack Russel Terriers are renowned for their tenaciousness. German Shepherds, Mastifs, Akitas, Terriers, Chows, Bull dogs... the list goes on.

2011-12-13 8:26 AM
in reply to: #3935913

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
powerman - 2011-12-12 11:03 PM

I'm so glad to hear your dog is OK. Completely unacceptable for the day care. I would have been irrate.

I had a Rottwieler that unfortunately became dog aggressive as she got older. There are many dogs that are dog aggressive. After an incident with the neighbors dog, the Animal control officer that came over was not in the least concerned. "Dogs do that". She said. The worst of all are small Terriers.

Growing up I had a Norwegian Elkhound. Sort of a Malamute and German Shepherd for hunting Elk. The males of the breed will attack any other male dog. Females are fine.... male, it's on, no warning, no questions asked, no stopping. Great dog. Incredibly smart, loyal, and affectionate... huge problem keeping him secure.

Many many dog were bread for working... and working mostly meant hunting. Jack Russel Terriers are renowned for their tenaciousness. German Shepherds, Mastifs, Akitas, Terriers, Chows, Bull dogs... the list goes on.

Agreed.  Small aggressive dogs are the most ubiquitous, but they're small.  They aren't going to kill or seriously injure another animal or human (unless it's a very small baby).  Large or medium sized/very muscular aggressive dogs ARE much much more of a social problem than small aggressive dogs and continued aggression on the part of large dogs should definitely be dealt with differently than aggressive small dogs.  It doesn't matter if all dogs breeds do it.  Some dog breed do it and people/other dogs wind up injured or dead.

Andi

2011-12-13 8:52 AM
in reply to: #3936238

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
Anditrigirl - 2011-12-13 7:26 AM
powerman - 2011-12-12 11:03 PM

I'm so glad to hear your dog is OK. Completely unacceptable for the day care. I would have been irrate.

I had a Rottwieler that unfortunately became dog aggressive as she got older. There are many dogs that are dog aggressive. After an incident with the neighbors dog, the Animal control officer that came over was not in the least concerned. "Dogs do that". She said. The worst of all are small Terriers.

Growing up I had a Norwegian Elkhound. Sort of a Malamute and German Shepherd for hunting Elk. The males of the breed will attack any other male dog. Females are fine.... male, it's on, no warning, no questions asked, no stopping. Great dog. Incredibly smart, loyal, and affectionate... huge problem keeping him secure.

Many many dog were bread for working... and working mostly meant hunting. Jack Russel Terriers are renowned for their tenaciousness. German Shepherds, Mastifs, Akitas, Terriers, Chows, Bull dogs... the list goes on.

Agreed.  Small aggressive dogs are the most ubiquitous, but they're small.  They aren't going to kill or seriously injure another animal or human (unless it's a very small baby).  Large or medium sized/very muscular aggressive dogs ARE much much more of a social problem than small aggressive dogs and continued aggression on the part of large dogs should definitely be dealt with differently than aggressive small dogs.  It doesn't matter if all dogs breeds do it.  Some dog breed do it and people/other dogs wind up injured or dead.

Andi

I don't have a problem with saying small dogs are not as big as threat as large ones. But what I am saying is dog aggression is in no way "exclusive" to the terrible Pit Bull breed. It is in fact a pretty common trait in dogs. One that is commonly excused in breeds that are more cute than that mean looking Pit Bull down the street. Many breeds have been bred for blood sports... this is not exclusive to Pit Bulls. Even the misconception that they have the strongest jaws is not true... that would be a German Shepherd that has been trained to attack humans for some time now. Just sayin'.

2011-12-13 9:05 AM
in reply to: #3936289

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
powerman - 2011-12-13 9:52 AM
Anditrigirl - 2011-12-13 7:26 AM
powerman - 2011-12-12 11:03 PM

I'm so glad to hear your dog is OK. Completely unacceptable for the day care. I would have been irrate.

I had a Rottwieler that unfortunately became dog aggressive as she got older. There are many dogs that are dog aggressive. After an incident with the neighbors dog, the Animal control officer that came over was not in the least concerned. "Dogs do that". She said. The worst of all are small Terriers.

Growing up I had a Norwegian Elkhound. Sort of a Malamute and German Shepherd for hunting Elk. The males of the breed will attack any other male dog. Females are fine.... male, it's on, no warning, no questions asked, no stopping. Great dog. Incredibly smart, loyal, and affectionate... huge problem keeping him secure.

Many many dog were bread for working... and working mostly meant hunting. Jack Russel Terriers are renowned for their tenaciousness. German Shepherds, Mastifs, Akitas, Terriers, Chows, Bull dogs... the list goes on.

Agreed.  Small aggressive dogs are the most ubiquitous, but they're small.  They aren't going to kill or seriously injure another animal or human (unless it's a very small baby).  Large or medium sized/very muscular aggressive dogs ARE much much more of a social problem than small aggressive dogs and continued aggression on the part of large dogs should definitely be dealt with differently than aggressive small dogs.  It doesn't matter if all dogs breeds do it.  Some dog breed do it and people/other dogs wind up injured or dead.

Andi

I don't have a problem with saying small dogs are not as big as threat as large ones. But what I am saying is dog aggression is in no way "exclusive" to the terrible Pit Bull breed. It is in fact a pretty common trait in dogs. One that is commonly excused in breeds that are more cute than that mean looking Pit Bull down the street. Many breeds have been bred for blood sports... this is not exclusive to Pit Bulls. Even the misconception that they have the strongest jaws is not true... that would be a German Shepherd that has been trained to attack humans for some time now. Just sayin'.

http://atts.org/breed-statistics/

Pit Bull breeds score in the 80% range... generally slightly above the average of all breeds. Of course, dogs tested are generally raised/handled by responsible people. That's the key. The owner, not the dog.

Other dogs around the same percentage score? Boarder Collies. Cocker Spaniels. German Shephards. Golden Retreivers. Saint Brenards.

2011-12-13 9:15 AM
in reply to: #3936313

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
ratherbeswimming - 2011-12-13 10:05 AM

powerman - 2011-12-13 9:52 AM
Anditrigirl - 2011-12-13 7:26 AM
powerman - 2011-12-12 11:03 PM

I'm so glad to hear your dog is OK. Completely unacceptable for the day care. I would have been irrate.

I had a Rottwieler that unfortunately became dog aggressive as she got older. There are many dogs that are dog aggressive. After an incident with the neighbors dog, the Animal control officer that came over was not in the least concerned. "Dogs do that". She said. The worst of all are small Terriers.

Growing up I had a Norwegian Elkhound. Sort of a Malamute and German Shepherd for hunting Elk. The males of the breed will attack any other male dog. Females are fine.... male, it's on, no warning, no questions asked, no stopping. Great dog. Incredibly smart, loyal, and affectionate... huge problem keeping him secure.

Many many dog were bread for working... and working mostly meant hunting. Jack Russel Terriers are renowned for their tenaciousness. German Shepherds, Mastifs, Akitas, Terriers, Chows, Bull dogs... the list goes on.

Agreed.  Small aggressive dogs are the most ubiquitous, but they're small.  They aren't going to kill or seriously injure another animal or human (unless it's a very small baby).  Large or medium sized/very muscular aggressive dogs ARE much much more of a social problem than small aggressive dogs and continued aggression on the part of large dogs should definitely be dealt with differently than aggressive small dogs.  It doesn't matter if all dogs breeds do it.  Some dog breed do it and people/other dogs wind up injured or dead.

Andi

I don't have a problem with saying small dogs are not as big as threat as large ones. But what I am saying is dog aggression is in no way "exclusive" to the terrible Pit Bull breed. It is in fact a pretty common trait in dogs. One that is commonly excused in breeds that are more cute than that mean looking Pit Bull down the street. Many breeds have been bred for blood sports... this is not exclusive to Pit Bulls. Even the misconception that they have the strongest jaws is not true... that would be a German Shepherd that has been trained to attack humans for some time now. Just sayin'.

http://atts.org/breed-statistics/

Pit Bull breeds score in the 80% range... generally slightly above the average of all breeds. Of course, dogs tested are generally raised/handled by responsible people. That's the key. The owner, not the dog.

Other dogs around the same percentage score? Boarder Collies. Cocker Spaniels. German Shephards. Golden Retreivers. Saint Brenards.




That test is with humans and has nothing to do with dog-dog behavior. I do agree that Pits are wonderful human-companions.

From the first page:
"The pass-fail rate is not a measure of a breed’s aggression, but rather of each dog’s ability to interact with humans, human situations, and the environment. See a description of the test on the TT Test Description page."


2011-12-13 9:16 AM
in reply to: #3936289

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Alpharetta, GA
Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
powerman - 2011-12-13 9:52 AM
Anditrigirl - 2011-12-13 7:26 AM
powerman - 2011-12-12 11:03 PM

I'm so glad to hear your dog is OK. Completely unacceptable for the day care. I would have been irrate.

I had a Rottwieler that unfortunately became dog aggressive as she got older. There are many dogs that are dog aggressive. After an incident with the neighbors dog, the Animal control officer that came over was not in the least concerned. "Dogs do that". She said. The worst of all are small Terriers.

Growing up I had a Norwegian Elkhound. Sort of a Malamute and German Shepherd for hunting Elk. The males of the breed will attack any other male dog. Females are fine.... male, it's on, no warning, no questions asked, no stopping. Great dog. Incredibly smart, loyal, and affectionate... huge problem keeping him secure.

Many many dog were bread for working... and working mostly meant hunting. Jack Russel Terriers are renowned for their tenaciousness. German Shepherds, Mastifs, Akitas, Terriers, Chows, Bull dogs... the list goes on.

Agreed.  Small aggressive dogs are the most ubiquitous, but they're small.  They aren't going to kill or seriously injure another animal or human (unless it's a very small baby).  Large or medium sized/very muscular aggressive dogs ARE much much more of a social problem than small aggressive dogs and continued aggression on the part of large dogs should definitely be dealt with differently than aggressive small dogs.  It doesn't matter if all dogs breeds do it.  Some dog breed do it and people/other dogs wind up injured or dead.

Andi

I don't have a problem with saying small dogs are not as big as threat as large ones. But what I am saying is dog aggression is in no way "exclusive" to the terrible Pit Bull breed. It is in fact a pretty common trait in dogs. One that is commonly excused in breeds that are more cute than that mean looking Pit Bull down the street. Many breeds have been bred for blood sports... this is not exclusive to Pit Bulls. Even the misconception that they have the strongest jaws is not true... that would be a German Shepherd that has been trained to attack humans for some time now. Just sayin'.

I completely agree.  Although I think small dogs are excused because they're, well, small.  Some are really anything but cute.  More like irritating for some of them!!

Andi

2011-12-13 9:26 AM
in reply to: #3936313

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Alpharetta, GA
Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
ratherbeswimming - 2011-12-13 10:05 AM
powerman - 2011-12-13 9:52 AM
Anditrigirl - 2011-12-13 7:26 AM
powerman - 2011-12-12 11:03 PM

I'm so glad to hear your dog is OK. Completely unacceptable for the day care. I would have been irrate.

I had a Rottwieler that unfortunately became dog aggressive as she got older. There are many dogs that are dog aggressive. After an incident with the neighbors dog, the Animal control officer that came over was not in the least concerned. "Dogs do that". She said. The worst of all are small Terriers.

Growing up I had a Norwegian Elkhound. Sort of a Malamute and German Shepherd for hunting Elk. The males of the breed will attack any other male dog. Females are fine.... male, it's on, no warning, no questions asked, no stopping. Great dog. Incredibly smart, loyal, and affectionate... huge problem keeping him secure.

Many many dog were bread for working... and working mostly meant hunting. Jack Russel Terriers are renowned for their tenaciousness. German Shepherds, Mastifs, Akitas, Terriers, Chows, Bull dogs... the list goes on.

Agreed.  Small aggressive dogs are the most ubiquitous, but they're small.  They aren't going to kill or seriously injure another animal or human (unless it's a very small baby).  Large or medium sized/very muscular aggressive dogs ARE much much more of a social problem than small aggressive dogs and continued aggression on the part of large dogs should definitely be dealt with differently than aggressive small dogs.  It doesn't matter if all dogs breeds do it.  Some dog breed do it and people/other dogs wind up injured or dead.

Andi

I don't have a problem with saying small dogs are not as big as threat as large ones. But what I am saying is dog aggression is in no way "exclusive" to the terrible Pit Bull breed. It is in fact a pretty common trait in dogs. One that is commonly excused in breeds that are more cute than that mean looking Pit Bull down the street. Many breeds have been bred for blood sports... this is not exclusive to Pit Bulls. Even the misconception that they have the strongest jaws is not true... that would be a German Shepherd that has been trained to attack humans for some time now. Just sayin'.

http://atts.org/breed-statistics/

Pit Bull breeds score in the 80% range... generally slightly above the average of all breeds. Of course, dogs tested are generally raised/handled by responsible people. That's the key. The owner, not the dog.

Other dogs around the same percentage score? Boarder Collies. Cocker Spaniels. German Shephards. Golden Retreivers. Saint Brenards.

I had a cocker and I couldn't take him anywhere.  He hated everyone and every dog but me and my hubby.  And as an owner I knew I couldn't allow him to go to the park, dog park, etc.  He was so flippin cute and kids would just want to RUN to him and that would have been disaster.

I do think that the very breed of some dogs tends to attract less than desirable owners.  But the end result is the same - if the dog has the potential to do serious damage I will not give it (or the owner if I don't know them) the benefit of the doubt.  On the other hand, a small dog, like a little terrier, just isn't going to raise red flags for me or freak me out no matter how viscious it is.

And some "dangerous" breeds I just love - like german shepards and dobermans.  They are just so awesome looking (my next dog will be a german shepard).  I just won't trust any of certain breeds if I don't know the dog.  That means if I'm out biking in the country and I get chased by two pit bulls (happened recently), rottweiler, german shepard, etc I will do what is necessary to protect myself.  I won't do the same to a small dog I know won't do me serious harm.

Andi



Edited by Anditrigirl 2011-12-13 9:29 AM
2011-12-13 1:41 PM
in reply to: #3924758

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Subject: RE: Pit Bull at the Day Care
Sorry that your dog was injured at doggie daycare and glad to hear she is recovering well.

Since we're arguing from anecdote, I'll chip in with my experience: In our neighborhood we have (categorized by owner, separated by the commas) a mean Dalmation and a mean Pit Bull, a super nice and friendly St Bernard and a super nice and friendly Pit Bull, three mean German Shepherds, two very nice mixed breed dogs with an aggressive Yorkie, an indifferent mixed breed dog, and a yappy/skittish Weimaraner. We used to have another mean German Shepherd and GS mix but they were put down by their owners due to old age.
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