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2011-12-04 2:08 PM

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Subject: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO7KhmzPXmM

(Can anyone help me with the embedding? The embed code from youtube doesn't seem to work.)

Sorry that the angle isn't the best; I had nobody to video me so I did it on my own. Next time I'll put the camera more on the side of the pool. I don't think the first set of shots is too helpful but maybe someone else will be able to see something I'm not seeing. I think the underwater shots came out pretty well.

The video is the same series of shots twice, once normal, once in slow motion. (watching the guys on the cardio equipment in slow mo is kinda fun too!)

A little background: I took swimming lessons when I was a kid. No formal coaching ever. I used to swim occasionally just for a different workout and only looked to really improve my form this year. I had a former competitive swimmer friend give me a few pointers and got some more from TI, but I think I've gone as far with TI as I can, as I have trouble translating a lot of what I read to what my own body wants to do.

A few of my observations (feel free to correct them if I'm off):

*holy crap, my head is sticking out of the water. I couldn't tell that by feel. That said, it's REALLY hard for me to keep my head down. It takes a lot of effort, it hurts my neck, and it feels way harder to get my face out of the water enough to take a breath. Any tips as to how to make it easier?

*my legs are way far apart. Again, tips for getting that under control?

*my feet look...err....floppy. Should I be concerned and how should I be holding them? Toes pointed back, down, where?

*I. Am. Pigeon. Toed. I didn't realize it was so obvious when I swim, but it makes sense - I do EVERYTHING pigeon-toed - run (got orthotics for that), bike (if my cleats aren't tight enough I'll start pulling them sideways), stand, walk, yoga (yoga tends to be more forgiving of biomechanical differences), etc. It's been that way since I could walk. (As a kid I literally used to trip over my own feet; I'm proud to report I no longer do that!) So I can try to fix that part of things but that may very well be an "it is what it is" sorta thing.

*I'm not totally sure what to do with my arms besides reaching forward. After that....elbow bent, not bent, when to bend it....having trouble figuring that out.

*I don't look as awesome as I feel BUT I'm happy that I don't look horrible - IMO.

*I'm strongly considering trying the Finding Freestyle curriculum. I've heard a lot of good things about it and I'm trying the first week right now. So, if I do, should I even be too worried about these things right now, or will FF correct them as I go through it? Or should I just be aware and try to tweak those things (it'll probably be a natural reaction now that I'm aware of them) without putting a ton of effort into it?

 

Anything anyone else caught that I'm missing?? (Feel free to note good things, too. )



2011-12-04 2:18 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions

Nice video, real clear.

I'll start by saying I'm no coach and don't pretend to be one.

But it looks to me (hard to tell) that on some of the strokes your arms aren't really getting out of the water, so you'll be fighting against the water reaching forward before you begin the actual stroke. Does that make sense? 

2011-12-04 2:23 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
abqtj - 2011-12-04 3:18 PM

Nice video, real clear.

I'll start by saying I'm no coach and don't pretend to be one.

But it looks to me (hard to tell) that on some of the strokes your arms aren't really getting out of the water, so you'll be fighting against the water reaching forward before you begin the actual stroke. Does that make sense? 

Yep!

And that's one of the things I'm not sure about - how far out of the water my arm should come and where to put it back in - and it's one of the things about TI that confused me (I think they say something like your arm should enter the water near your goggles, and when I tried to put it into practice, it was a big wtf moment) - and that is the result.

2011-12-04 2:25 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
This video has some good explanations that I've been trying to work on myself. Maybe something in there will help a little
2011-12-04 2:33 PM
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2011-12-04 3:04 PM
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2011-12-04 3:43 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions

It is really hard to tell from the camera angles.  The first thing that jumped out at me was the extremely low recovery which seems to be coming from swimming flat.  The second was the wide kick.

Fred's suggestion to use the fingertip drag drill is a good one.  The other thing you can do is the 6-kick switch drill to help teach more body roll.  Here is a good video of it.

My last suggestion is to focus on only one issue at a time to avoid becoming overwhelmed.

2011-12-04 4:34 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions

abqtj - 2011-12-04 3:25 PM This video has some good explanations that I've been trying to work on myself. Maybe something in there will help a little

That was helpful - so much more explanation than other swimming videos that show some guy swimming and say, "Here, do this!" I pretty much fail at imitating what I see.

2011-12-04 4:38 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
Fred D - 2011-12-04 3:33 PM

The elbows need to be much, much higher on both the recovery and the pull.

I don't think I have seen a stroke where the elbows were so low on the recovery before.

Could try some drills like fingertip drill where you concentrate on getting the elbow higher on recovery and try to drag just the tips of your fingers on top of the water. Hand and arm and fingers should be very relaxed at the time of the recovery.

A coach would be another good suggestion.

If money were no object, I'd have a coach with me all the time in all three sports. I actually started another thread pretty much devoted to that very question. In the end, a coach is out of the range of what I can afford right now.  Lessons (with an instructor, not a coach) were the other option and there is so much hit and miss potential that I've decided to explore other options online - and apparently I'll be posting lots of videos in the process!

I'll try the fingertip drill. Is there any more to it than just what you said? And if it's a DRILL then where should my elbow/fingertips be, realistically, during recovery in a normal stroke?



Edited by runk8run 2011-12-04 4:38 PM
2011-12-04 4:39 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
TSimone - 2011-12-04 4:04 PM

I usually try to answer the specific questions asked in these types of threads but I'm honestly not qualified to do so on this one.  What I can tell you is that Fred is right.  I just started working with a swim coach and it will very likely be the best money I spend.  Technical flaws spotted and instant feedback received.  That's a big deal to me. 

Just a quick example.  In my first lesson we worked on my head position, point of entry for my hands, and when the pull should begin.  And she was constantly emphasizing the need for me to relax more.  When I go back this week she will , then determine if it's time to move on to other things or keep working on these three. 

I'd recommend this type of instruction to anyone with technique issues or questions.

Do you have any recommendations for poor people?

2011-12-04 4:44 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
TriMyBest - 2011-12-04 4:43 PM

It is really hard to tell from the camera angles.  The first thing that jumped out at me was the extremely low recovery which seems to be coming from swimming flat.  The second was the wide kick.

Fred's suggestion to use the fingertip drag drill is a good one.  The other thing you can do is the 6-kick switch drill to help teach more body roll.  Here is a good video of it.

My last suggestion is to focus on only one issue at a time to avoid becoming overwhelmed.

Swimming flat....I'm guessing you mean not enough roll? That's good to know. It's hard to tell how much roll is enough. I can assure you that I'm not swimming as flat as I used to!

The 6-kick drill looks very similar to the statue of liberty drill in finding freestyle; the SoL drill just doesn't have the middle part.



2011-12-04 4:55 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions

Good job with the video!  What a fabulous tool to use. 

I have been swimming since 1972 - May I make some helpful suggestions?  I'm not a coach, by choice, but can happily share through my experience.

1.  The feet and legs need to be closer together - almost touching.  The fact that they are open produces a negative pressure thus increase the amount of drag...slowing you down.  Get the legs together and kick at a quicker cadence independent of your stroke.  I good drill for this is to go to the deep end of the pool in a vertical position.  Kick fast to keep your head above water without using your arms.  Do this for 10 seconds, then from that position, start swimming across the pool as you use the same cadence of kick throughout your swim.  Repeat until it becomes natural.

2.   Your body does have enough roll from side to side.   Try some drills which work specifically on this like;  6-kick drill on your side.  This drill will help.

3.   As another replier commented about the arms being too flat.  After your pull through on your stroke, imagine running your thumb from the side of your leg, up the side of your body to just below your arm-pit before reaching and setting up for your next pull-through.  This exercise will help you get your elbow up high.  Don't forget your body rolling from side-to-side for this to work.

I hope you found this helpful.  I really enjoyed your video.  It was clear and I'm jealous that you get to swim indoors.  Kudos to you and keep swimming.

2011-12-04 5:20 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
2011-12-04 6:00 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
Thanks for uploading the video and asking for help. lots of people are too fearful or bashful to do that!

SO good things about your swim...you look relaxed, you are not thrashing no big serious splashing and you are makign forward progress.

Some of the other comments above are right on. More body rotation is needed in order to lengthen and streamline as well as get your recovery arm out of the water.

You said you have gone as far as you can with TI...not to start a debate of any sort, but I'm just curious if you can elaborate on that? Is it that you feel like you can't implement what you read and/or watch? What materials do you have? Pretty much everything here is consistent with what TI teaches, but I'll readily admit that it can be hard to learn from reading (if you only have the book).

Practicing superman glide to learn to let your head relax into the water, and practicing skating position to learn how to rotate the body and clear the high side shoulder just a hair...and then practicing recovery with an elbow that swings wide and outside body line.

Entering the water at the goggles is fine but the angle needs to be steep enough to create a streamlined entry...a single hole that your finterips enter followed by your wrist, elbow and forearm. When you have the feel of that, you could play with moving that entry foward more.

Like someone else mentioned, focus on just one element at a time. As far as the TI materials go, their latest DVD is the 10 lesson series and has a ncie breakdown of all the drills that may help you break out of where you are right now.

I think your kick is fine at the moment and is not the biggest of your issues. If I had to prioritize them, I'd suggest in this order:

1) Relax head into the water more. This will decrease drag and neck strain as well as bring the hips closer to the surface
2) Introduce more rotation (hips & shoulder) on each side of your stroke
3) relax the legs and allow the knees and ankles to come closer & draft behind the torso
2011-12-04 6:54 PM
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2011-12-04 7:20 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
Fred D - 2011-12-04 3:33 PM

The elbows need to be much, much higher on both the recovery and the pull.

I don't think I have seen a stroke where the elbows were so low on the recovery before.

Could try some drills like fingertip drill where you concentrate on getting the elbow higher on recovery and try to drag just the tips of your fingers on top of the water. Hand and arm and fingers should be very relaxed at the time of the recovery.

A coach would be another good suggestion.

 

X2....what he said

 



2011-12-04 7:47 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
This drill is good for you: combines several of what was discussed above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=c1tOqjKTPJI
2011-12-04 8:38 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions

AdventureBear - 2011-12-04 7:00 PM

You said you have gone as far as you can with TI...not to start a debate of any sort, but I'm just curious if you can elaborate on that? Is it that you feel like you can't implement what you read and/or watch? What materials do you have? Pretty much everything here is consistent with what TI teaches, but I'll readily admit that it can be hard to learn from reading (if you only have the book). Practicing superman glide to learn to let your head relax into the water, and practicing skating position to learn how to rotate the body and clear the high side shoulder just a hair...and then practicing recovery with an elbow that swings wide and outside body line. Entering the water at the goggles is fine but the angle needs to be steep enough to create a streamlined entry...a single hole that your finterips enter followed by your wrist, elbow and forearm. When you have the feel of that, you could play with moving that entry foward more. Like someone else mentioned, focus on just one element at a time. As far as the TI materials go, their latest DVD is the 10 lesson series and has a ncie breakdown of all the drills that may help you break out of where you are right now. I think your kick is fine at the moment and is not the biggest of your issues. If I had to prioritize them, I'd suggest in this order: 1) Relax head into the water more. This will decrease drag and neck strain as well as bring the hips closer to the surface 2) Introduce more rotation (hips & shoulder) on each side of your stroke 3) relax the legs and allow the knees and ankles to come closer & draft behind the torso

Sure...I mean I've gotten as much as I can get out of watching videos online and reading the book. I am really NOT good at reading something and translating it into action, nor at watching someone and imitating them. A lot of what I read in the book I just could not figure out how to do in real life. And as far as watching videos, I am great at thinking I'm imitating someone exactly, and I look nothing like them. (I am like that with EVERYTHING - don't even bother trying to teach me dance moves.) It's just not the way my brain works. So the things I have read and seen that make sense to me and I know I can do, I've implemented....but I think a few of them have screwed up my stroke. I know my elbows are low because I'm thinking of reaching forward like I'm reaching for the wall, which is what the TI book says.

(By the way, I don't know which TI book it was because I got it from the library.)

*sigh*

I'll have to look up the skating drill again. I have NO idea how to enter the water at the goggles. None. And when I relax my head, it floats. It does not go into the water. I have to force the crap out of it to get it in there.

I know I asked for advice.....but holy crap if I'm not getting completely overwhelmed now! Eep!

2011-12-04 8:44 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions

TSimone - 2011-12-04 7:54 PM Some instructors will give "private" instruction to more than one person at a time.  Mine will take up to three students which makes the lessons more affordable than individual private lessons and less crowded than full blown group lessons.  My instructors rate goes from $50 per 1 hour lesson for 1 student to $60 for 2 students and $75 for three.  I can't imagine she's the only one who structures her fees this way but maybe she is.  Hope you find what you're looking for!         

I found something like that with the local college instructors, but I know nothing about them. I don't know if they primarily teach people who can't swim at all or if they'd be helpful to someone like me. I got enough responses in my other thread that were along the lines of "I paid for an instructor and they pretty much weren't helpful at all" to be nervous about spending money on one.

I have tried to find others who are interested in lessons but to no avail. They're either worse off than I am and are doing group lessons to make sure they don't drown, or they're way better than I am. I would be on my own, and I have yet to find someone who is willing to give semi-private lessons if I don't find my classmates myself.

I'm finding coaches for $60-70 an hour. That's steep to me. Not for one, maybe even two hours of lessons but I'm afraid they'll tell me I need ten sessions with them or something.

2011-12-04 8:46 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
pocodino - 2011-12-04 5:55 PM

Good job with the video!  What a fabulous tool to use. 

I have been swimming since 1972 - May I make some helpful suggestions?  I'm not a coach, by choice, but can happily share through my experience.

1.  The feet and legs need to be closer together - almost touching.  The fact that they are open produces a negative pressure thus increase the amount of drag...slowing you down.  Get the legs together and kick at a quicker cadence independent of your stroke.  I good drill for this is to go to the deep end of the pool in a vertical position.  Kick fast to keep your head above water without using your arms.  Do this for 10 seconds, then from that position, start swimming across the pool as you use the same cadence of kick throughout your swim.  Repeat until it becomes natural.

2.   Your body does have enough roll from side to side.   Try some drills which work specifically on this like;  6-kick drill on your side.  This drill will help.

3.   As another replier commented about the arms being too flat.  After your pull through on your stroke, imagine running your thumb from the side of your leg, up the side of your body to just below your arm-pit before reaching and setting up for your next pull-through.  This exercise will help you get your elbow up high.  Don't forget your body rolling from side-to-side for this to work.

I hope you found this helpful.  I really enjoyed your video.  It was clear and I'm jealous that you get to swim indoors.  Kudos to you and keep swimming.

Thanks! The suggestions for drills are very helpful. And I really wish I could be swimming outside - I hate laps in the pool!!

2011-12-04 9:03 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
runk8run - 2011-12-04 4:39 PM
TSimone - 2011-12-04 4:04 PM

I usually try to answer the specific questions asked in these types of threads but I'm honestly not qualified to do so on this one.  What I can tell you is that Fred is right.  I just started working with a swim coach and it will very likely be the best money I spend.  Technical flaws spotted and instant feedback received.  That's a big deal to me. 

Just a quick example.  In my first lesson we worked on my head position, point of entry for my hands, and when the pull should begin.  And she was constantly emphasizing the need for me to relax more.  When I go back this week she will , then determine if it's time to move on to other things or keep working on these three. 

I'd recommend this type of instruction to anyone with technique issues or questions.

Do you have any recommendations for poor people?

 

YOUTUBE! There are lots of great videos out there on youtube to watch that will help you. 



2011-12-04 9:14 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
No advice but I wanted to thank you for the idea, it never occured to me do record my swimming!
2011-12-04 9:21 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions

I agree with the others on the fingertip drill.  Just bear in mind that this is a drill to focus on the difference in position between your elbows (high) and fingertips (low).  When really swimming you won't drag your fingertips across the water surface. 

When doing the drill, and when swimming for real, imagine that you are a marionette, and the strings controlling your arms are attached at your elbows.  The elbow is the support point and the forearm hangs from it. The string lifts your elbows out of the water and your forearm follows, hanging below.

When doing the drill keep the elbows high on the recovery and skim your fingertips across the water.  When swimming for real, keep your elbows high, but clear the water with your fingertips by an inch or two.

One reason for the creation of the fingertip drill is for swimmers who lift their hand high up to the sky, way above their elbow on the recovery.  You'll even see nationally ranked swimmers who do this.   

In your video I also noticed your fingers are pretty far apart on the pull through.  Concentrate on closing them.  It takes a while for your hands to develop a feel for the water and your fingers don't have to be clamped together in a death grip, but concentrate on bringing your fingers together comfortably and slightly firmly.

2011-12-04 9:21 PM
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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
Skimmed through responses, I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, but your fingers seem to be spread wide!  Try keeping them nice and tight to make a better "paddle"!  Otherwise, advice given so far is good!
2011-12-04 9:26 PM
in reply to: #3925592

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Subject: RE: my first swim video (be nice :)) and a few questions
OK.....any practical ideas for putting all this into practice so I don't frustrate myself??? How many new drills to try at a time, how to integrate them into a normal swim workout, how to know which to do first.....etc. Be specific. Be very specific.
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