General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Interesting data points on IM volume Rss Feed  
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2011-12-07 6:20 PM

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2011-12-07 7:00 PM
in reply to: #3930311

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Subject: RE: Interesting data points on IM volume
Interesting data points. The things that brings to my mind are:

-- I agree, recovery is important
-- those miles didn't disappear when you raced each race, so there is some benefit to being in year 3 of that racing program
-- I wouldn't discount how much the crash impacted the race. Were you injured? With what you've said, its hard to know whether a crash vrs. changing bikes really offset each other.
-- How much did the wind at Cozumel play a role compared to more climbing at CdA?

It is some data, but its hard to draw conclusions based off of it.

Congrats on all of those finishes, they are all pretty impressive.
2011-12-07 7:19 PM
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2011-12-07 7:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Interesting data points on IM volume

those miles didn't disappear when you raced each race, so there is some benefit to being in year 3 of that racing program

First off, this is the most important factor for improvement.  Consistency for a LONG time--not just for an 18 week (or whatever) race training program.

Second, you swam more (and have been building for 3 years) and got out of the water much faster.  People drastically underestimate how big an advantage this is.  It's not just the 12min you saved in the water.  It's the energy saved that you can spend on the bike & run.

Third, Cozumel is a much faster course than CdA.  So, you get off the bike faster and, again, spend less effort there.  So you can also have a better run, all else equal.

I am not at all knocking your (well earned) improvements.  That is great and congrats!  But your attribution is probably largely misplaced.

2011-12-08 5:01 AM
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Edited by UrsusAdiposimus 2011-12-08 5:14 AM
2011-12-08 6:24 AM
in reply to: #3930607

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Subject: RE: Interesting data points on IM volume
UrsusAdiposimus - 2011-12-08 7:01 AM

The main point my data makes is that you don't necessarily have to do more volume year-to-year to improve. A lot of people, including, until recently, myself (and most of the people I train with), are under that false impression, and I think this data is a useful refutation of that mindset.


You are correct that this is a common misconception and that you don't need to do more volume in order to improve. However, you generally need to do more training (volume * intensity) so I would be curious as to the intensity in your program this past year.

And yes I agree CDA is a slower course than Cozumel. I was there after all Andy Potts won Cozumel in 2010 with an 8:16 and Coeur D'Alene with an 8:24. So, Cozumel is faster, but not 1:17 faster. If you look at AG'rs who've done both races, you see a similar difference in times.


While you did go faster, I would guess that part of your improvement was due to figuring out the distance and pacing better (not to mention a much improved swim). Your HIM in 2009 would suggest that you underperformed at CDA in 2010 so while I would suspect that some of the delta was due to improved fitness, I would guess that some of it was also because you had a better idea how to race.

Shane


2011-12-08 8:42 AM
in reply to: #3930311

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Subject: RE: Interesting data points on IM volume

I think having a huge aerobic base really helps with long course racing.  I can only use myslef as an n=1, but as my volume increased so did my race performances.  I actually wrote a blog post on the same subject:

http://somerandomthursday.blogspot.com/#!/2011/11/dont-make-me-herd-you-look-back.html

I'm not saying that othe facts don't play a role (intensity, race pacing, nutrition) but im my case, volume appears to have been the key.

2011-12-08 9:44 AM
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2011-12-08 10:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Interesting data points on IM volume
kaburns1214 - 2011-12-08 7:42 AM

I think having a huge aerobic base really helps with long course racing.  I can only use myslef as an n=1, but as my volume increased so did my race performances.  I actually wrote a blog post on the same subject:

http://somerandomthursday.blogspot.com/#!/2011/11/dont-make-me-herd-you-look-back.html

I'm not saying that othe facts don't play a role (intensity, race pacing, nutrition) but im my case, volume appears to have been the key.



No, the fact that you are 3+ years into consistent training was the key, Kel, not the volume. I know you really want to attribute a big volume approach to your improvements but it's just not the case.

Edited by bryancd 2011-12-08 10:17 AM
2011-12-08 10:16 AM
in reply to: #3930607

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Subject: RE: Interesting data points on IM volume
UrsusAdiposimus - 2011-12-08 6:01 AM

The main point my data makes is that you don't necessarily have to do more volume year-to-year to improve. A lot of people, including, until recently, myself (and most of the people I train with), are under that false impression, and I think this data is a useful refutation of that mindset.

Your first statement is undoubtedly true.  However, you still appear to be leaving other 'false impressions' for yourself and for others.  Your 'data' is not nearly complete and, on its own, is of limited use in making the conclusion that you are trying to make.

2011-12-08 10:22 AM
in reply to: #3931027

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Subject: RE: Interesting data points on IM volume
bryancd - 2011-12-08 11:15 AM
kaburns1214 - 2011-12-08 7:42 AM

I think having a huge aerobic base really helps with long course racing.  I can only use myslef as an n=1, but as my volume increased so did my race performances.  I actually wrote a blog post on the same subject:

http://somerandomthursday.blogspot.com/#!/2011/11/dont-make-me-herd-you-look-back.html

I'm not saying that othe facts don't play a role (intensity, race pacing, nutrition) but im my case, volume appears to have been the key.

No, the fact that you are 3+ years into consistent training was the key, Kel, not the volume.

x2.  Your 'huge aerobic base' comes not just from your increased volume this year, but all the training you did before that (which, of course, allowed you to do that huge volume this year). 

People seem to constantly try to 'compartmentalize' their training around a race or a year.  And then they see what was 'different' and assume that led to the changed performance.  It is generally not possible to do that with any degree of certainty, despite the 'feeling' that it must be right.  You (speaking generally to any individual) are not a 'control' group.



2011-12-08 10:31 AM
in reply to: #3931045

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Subject: RE: Interesting data points on IM volume
...and they want to ascribe their improvements to specific protocols of trainign they adhere to when at the end of the day, it's just that they trained, not how they trained.

I have been totally guilty of this as well. As Fred and JK and other old timers will recall, I used to think that HR based training was THE ONLY way to train. I have since learned it is simply one of many, non really better then the next. What matters is that you TRAIN. High volume/low intensity, low volume/high intensity, whatever. Mst improtant, do a little of EVRYTHING. Long and slow works only to a point as does short and fast.

Edited by bryancd 2011-12-08 10:36 AM
2011-12-08 10:51 AM
in reply to: #3931027

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Subject: RE: Interesting data points on IM volume
bryancd - 2011-12-08 11:15 AM
kaburns1214 - 2011-12-08 7:42 AM

I think having a huge aerobic base really helps with long course racing.  I can only use myslef as an n=1, but as my volume increased so did my race performances.  I actually wrote a blog post on the same subject:

http://somerandomthursday.blogspot.com/#!/2011/11/dont-make-me-herd-you-look-back.html

I'm not saying that othe facts don't play a role (intensity, race pacing, nutrition) but im my case, volume appears to have been the key.

No, the fact that you are 3+ years into consistent training was the key, Kel, not the volume. I know you really want to attribute a big volume approach to your improvements but it's just not the case.

I agree that consistency is the key.   Consistency, for me, led to bigger volume.  There would have been no improvement, if I didn't do the work (whether long and slow or short and hard) day in and day out.

2011-12-08 11:43 AM
in reply to: #3931059

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Subject: RE: Interesting data points on IM volume

bryancd - 2011-12-08 11:31 AM

As Fred and JK and other old timers will recall

Watch who you're calling old there, pops! 

 

2011-12-08 12:40 PM
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2011-12-08 12:41 PM
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2011-12-08 1:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Interesting data points on IM volume
I miss Rick.
2011-12-08 1:06 PM
in reply to: #3930311

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Subject: RE: Interesting data points on IM volume

Just to echo the thread, the accumulated training is the key here, not the reduced mileage. The fitness from year 1 helped year 2 and 2 helped 3. One of the reasons people often say that it takes years of training to get to a level to KQ.

Nice race by the way!

2011-12-08 3:56 PM
in reply to: #3930311

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Subject: RE: Interesting data points on IM volume
I agree with the accumulated training as a reason for improvement.

One thing I have noticed in my training: I have made some of my biggest physiologic gains during my vacation weeks. Not because I am able to train more but instead because I am able to rest more.

In my typical life I get 5-6 hours of sleep per night and I am on my feet for 7-10 hours per day. On vacation I can get 8-9 hours of sleep per night and get in some serious rest time to boot.

Maybe I just feel better after all of the rest but I am convinced that if I could rest as aggressively as I train I could be making better long-term gains.

The OP emphasized that he made rest a priority. That may have helped more than many will acknowledge/realize.

Just my 2 cents.
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