General Discussion Triathlon Talk » New old study on foot strike Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
2011-12-12 8:10 AM

User image

Champion
7595
50002000500252525
Columbia, South Carolina
Subject: New old study on foot strike

I know this was already done in Japan in 2004 (published 2007) and before that in 1983, and before that in 1964, and that in any case many zealots will bend these observations to their preconceived view (whatever it may be), but here it is anyway, a study that just came out about foot strike in actual runners in an actual race.

          http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640414.2011.610347

The full story is complicated in a number of interesting ways (and the authors mention many of them), but the simple take-home (IMHO) is this:  "Among marathon runners, we found no significant relationship between foot strike patterns and race times."

For the curious:  the race was the Manchester City Marathon in 2009.  They used a high-speed camera to film the runners.



2011-12-12 8:15 AM
in reply to: #3934810

User image

Elite
3779
20001000500100100252525
Ontario
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike
Although there is perhaps no correlation to run speed, is there any correlation to injuries from other studies based on strike patterns?  (I have no idea, hence my question)
2011-12-12 8:16 AM
in reply to: #3934810

User image

Runner
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike
Steve Magness has a series of posts talking about foot strike versus cadence versus stride length. I haven't read some of the newer stuff (stupid filters at work), but hey generally does a pretty good job of treating the subject.
2011-12-12 8:17 AM
in reply to: #3934816

User image

Runner
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike
GoFaster - 2011-12-12 9:15 AM

Although there is perhaps no correlation to run speed, is there any correlation to injuries from other studies based on strike patterns?  (I have no idea, hence my question)


I have never seen any study that showed a definitive correlation between foot strike pattern and frequency/severity of injury.

Most people get injured due to poor training management, and not biomechanical issues.
2011-12-12 8:28 AM
in reply to: #3934816

User image

Champion
7595
50002000500252525
Columbia, South Carolina
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike

GoFaster - 2011-12-12 9:15 AM Although there is perhaps no correlation to run speed, is there any correlation to injuries from other studies based on strike patterns?  (I have no idea, hence my question)

The authors touch on it, but (wisely) draw no conclusions.  I think that would be a very very difficult study to perform, in large part because of the observation that Scout made -- overuse is probably a more significant cause of injury.  In any case, one would then definitely need to distinguish footstrike pattern from footstrike location relative to center of graviy because the latter does have a demonstrable effect on impact forces, which are presumably related somehow to injury.  

There are reasons to think that a heel strike under your c.o.g. followed by the natural rolling action (mostly heel to toe, but there is also some pronation involved) minimizes impact forces (because it spreads the transfer of momentum over a longer time, which, by definition, reduces the forces).  But what the actual differences are between heel, midfoot, and forefoot wrt injury are more complicated than just making that observation, because in those three cases, the forces are directed to different parts of the body (even to the point where, for example, it affects the forces on your hips), and muscle activation is also somewhat different in the three cases.

2011-12-12 9:41 AM
in reply to: #3934810

User image

Expert
1263
10001001002525
Wendell, NC
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike

Don Goss of UNC-CH is currently conducting a study on foot strike/running style related to joint stress.   I don't know when his study will be published but keep an eye out for it.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/11/07/1624758/tracking-touch-the-ground-running.html



Edited by La Tortuga 2011-12-12 9:44 AM


2011-12-12 2:46 PM
in reply to: #3934810

User image

Master
1366
10001001001002525
PNW
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike

Based on the abstract, I'm getting the impression that they looked only at how the foot struck the ground, not where it did in relation to the runner, correct?  So a heel striker who over-strides out front would count the same as someone who heel-strikes somewhere closer to under the c.o.g.? 

If that's truly how they looked at the categories, then I'm not even a little surprised at the inconclusive findings.

2011-12-12 2:56 PM
in reply to: #3935499

User image

Champion
9407
500020002000100100100100
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike
GLC1968 - 2011-12-12 4:46 PM

Based on the abstract, I'm getting the impression that they looked only at how the foot struck the ground, not where it did in relation to the runner, correct?  So a heel striker who over-strides out front would count the same as someone who heel-strikes somewhere closer to under the c.o.g.? 

If that's truly how they looked at the categories, then I'm not even a little surprised at the inconclusive findings.



Regardless of how people try to shape the debate, what defines a runner as a heel, mid-foot or forefoot runner is the part of the foot that touches the ground first.

Shane
2011-12-12 3:08 PM
in reply to: #3934819

User image

Champion
5781
5000500100100252525
Northridge, California
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike

Scout7 - 2011-12-12 6:17 AM
GoFaster - 2011-12-12 9:15 AM Although there is perhaps no correlation to run speed, is there any correlation to injuries from other studies based on strike patterns?  (I have no idea, hence my question)
I have never seen any study that showed a definitive correlation between foot strike pattern and frequency/severity of injury. Most people get injured due to poor training management, and not biomechanical issues.

And...though it isn't PC to say it...weight can be a contributing factor.  My boss (as one example sitting in my line of sight at the moment) would certainly not have had meniscus damage if he wasn't persisting in trying to run at 275-290 lbs. (vs the 200 lbs he used to weigh when he was younger and doing marathons).  Sometimes it's wiser to hold down the mileage (or emphasize walking) while one is still seriously overweight.  (Which is just another species of training management, I guess.)

Anyhow, interesting to see that this study was even more emphatic than the older Japanese study in pointing out predominance of heel strike in REALITY as opposed to the lab.  One of the things I appreciated in the Japanese study is that it documented that elites at the half mar distance were every bit as likely to have a heel strike gait (and were almost totally lacking in forefoot strikers as a group).

...And X2 to Scout's comment...I've yet to see anyone come forward with definitive evidence of a causal relationship between footstrike and injury.

2011-12-12 3:21 PM
in reply to: #3934810

User image

Coach
9167
5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike
Experior - 2011-12-12 7:10 AM

I know this was already done in Japan in 2004 (published 2007) and before that in 1983, and before that in 1964, and that in any case many zealots will bend these observations to their preconceived view (whatever it may be), but here it is anyway, a study that just came out about foot strike in actual runners in an actual race.

          http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640414.2011.610347

The full story is complicated in a number of interesting ways (and the authors mention many of them), but the simple take-home (IMHO) is this:  "Among marathon runners, we found no significant relationship between foot strike patterns and race times."

For the curious:  the race was the Manchester City Marathon in 2009.  They used a high-speed camera to film the runners.



This repeats similar conclusions that as race distance goes on, runners tend to convert to more heel striking.

For the umpteenth time, it's not a bout the part of the foot that strikes the ground first...it's were the force is directed and is it helping or hindering your speed?
2011-12-12 6:42 PM
in reply to: #3935556

User image

Champion
7595
50002000500252525
Columbia, South Carolina
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike
AdventureBear - 2011-12-12 4:21 PM
Experior - 2011-12-12 7:10 AM

I know this was already done in Japan in 2004 (published 2007) and before that in 1983, and before that in 1964, and that in any case many zealots will bend these observations to their preconceived view (whatever it may be), but here it is anyway, a study that just came out about foot strike in actual runners in an actual race.

          http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640414.2011.610347

The full story is complicated in a number of interesting ways (and the authors mention many of them), but the simple take-home (IMHO) is this:  "Among marathon runners, we found no significant relationship between foot strike patterns and race times."

For the curious:  the race was the Manchester City Marathon in 2009.  They used a high-speed camera to film the runners.

This repeats similar conclusions that as race distance goes on, runners tend to convert to more heel striking. For the umpteenth time, it's not a bout the part of the foot that strikes the ground first...it's were the force is directed and is it helping or hindering your speed?

Agreed -- there isn't really anything new here.  And that is really the point -- we are at the stage now where, amongst those who study these things somewhat carefully, the conclusion that footstrke pattern is unrelated to performance is ho hum.



2011-12-12 6:47 PM
in reply to: #3935499

User image

Champion
7595
50002000500252525
Columbia, South Carolina
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike
GLC1968 - 2011-12-12 3:46 PM

Based on the abstract, I'm getting the impression that they looked only at how the foot struck the ground, not where it did in relation to the runner, correct?  So a heel striker who over-strides out front would count the same as someone who heel-strikes somewhere closer to under the c.o.g.? 

If that's truly how they looked at the categories, then I'm not even a little surprised at the inconclusive findings.

The findings weren't particularly inconclusive.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is important, for some purposes, to distinguish between heel-striking under one's c.o.g. versus heel striking out in front of one's c.o.g..  At the same time, as Shane mentions, "heel-striking" is typically defined as "heel hits ground first", and so many people vilify this way of running (regardless of where the strike occurs in relation to c.o.g.) that studies such as this one are useful, for counterbalancing such vilification.

But yes, it would be very interesting to see a similar analysis that subdivided the 'heel-strike' category into those who strike under their c.o.g. and those who do not.  I suspect (as I mentioned above) that this distinction would be even more important for studying the relationship (if any) between footstrike pattern and injury.

2011-12-12 7:11 PM
in reply to: #3935764

User image

Master
1366
10001001001002525
PNW
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike
Experior - 2011-12-12 4:47 PM
GLC1968 - 2011-12-12 3:46 PM

Based on the abstract, I'm getting the impression that they looked only at how the foot struck the ground, not where it did in relation to the runner, correct?  So a heel striker who over-strides out front would count the same as someone who heel-strikes somewhere closer to under the c.o.g.? 

If that's truly how they looked at the categories, then I'm not even a little surprised at the inconclusive findings.

The findings weren't particularly inconclusive.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is important, for some purposes, to distinguish between heel-striking under one's c.o.g. versus heel striking out in front of one's c.o.g..  At the same time, as Shane mentions, "heel-striking" is typically defined as "heel hits ground first", and so many people vilify this way of running (regardless of where the strike occurs in relation to c.o.g.) that studies such as this one are useful, for counterbalancing such vilification.

But yes, it would be very interesting to see a similar analysis that subdivided the 'heel-strike' category into those who strike under their c.o.g. and those who do not.  I suspect (as I mentioned above) that this distinction would be even more important for studying the relationship (if any) between footstrike pattern and injury.

 

I agree, which is why I asked.  So is there still really a 'debate' about foot strike patterns amongst the truly educated set?

I recently completed a Chi Running clinic and the instructor was clear that what part of your foot touched down first wasn't the important part.  How and where your foot landed meant a lot more in terms of speed, comfort and ultimately, injury prevention. 

2011-12-13 2:20 AM
in reply to: #3935532

User image

Fort Walton Beach
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike
tcovert - 2011-12-12 3:08 PM

And...though it isn't PC to say it...weight can be a contributing factor.  My boss (as one example sitting in my line of sight at the moment) would certainly not have had meniscus damage if he wasn't persisting in trying to run at 275-290 lbs. (vs the 200 lbs he used to weigh when he was younger and doing marathons).  Sometimes it's wiser to hold down the mileage (or emphasize walking) while one is still seriously overweight.  (Which is just another species of training management, I guess.)

True, I think that has been a factor for me. I've packed on some mid-forties lbs and now have more problems on less mileage. My weight gain is more on the order of 10-12 lbs, but I think it still makes a different. Hence part of my recovery plan is to make sure I get that weight off.  Tough goal during the holidays!

 

2011-12-13 6:51 AM
in reply to: #3935779

User image

Champion
9407
500020002000100100100100
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike
GLC1968 - 2011-12-12 9:11 PM

I agree, which is why I asked.  So is there still really a 'debate' about foot strike patterns amongst the truly educated set?


IMO there is no debate amongst those who have taken the time to review the literaure, have experience coaching a wide variety of athletes and are not trying to sell you on the "true" program/shoe for running success.

Shane
2011-12-13 7:09 AM
in reply to: #3935779

User image

Champion
7595
50002000500252525
Columbia, South Carolina
Subject: RE: New old study on foot strike
GLC1968 - 2011-12-12 8:11 PM 

I agree, which is why I asked.  So is there still really a 'debate' about foot strike patterns amongst the truly educated set?

There's still plenty to learn about the biomechanics of running, but the specific issue of whether footstrike pattern is correlated to performance is, IMO, settled.



New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » New old study on foot strike Rss Feed