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2011-12-12 10:09 PM

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Subject: Heart rate training
I'm currently training for my first Ironman and I'm following Fink's Ironfit competitive plan. I've never trained based on heart rate before - just however feels like a good level of exertion - that's always equated to maybe 8 or 9 minute miles while running. To keep my heart rate in zone 2, I find that I've had to slow WAY down - I'm jogging 11:00 min miles and still pushing into zone 3. My heart rate monitor is a Garmin 305 and I believe its working ok - on the bike I don't have a problem keeping in zone 2. Anyone else had this problem.. or should my pace really be slowed down this much? Thanks for the insight.


2011-12-13 4:19 AM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training

Welcome to BT!

First, a question:  How did you determine your zones?

2011-12-13 9:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training
TriMyBest - 2011-12-13 5:19 AM
First, a question:  How did you determine your zones?



Weclome to BT!

Great question above! I would suggest not using the set calculations to set your max HR, but field test it (my field test vs set calculations are two very separate numbers). The book gives you ways to test it which will all work well. I would also add to find a pretty good hill about .10 of a mile long, and sprint up/jog down and repeat 6x or 7x times. You should get close on the 5th up, but the 6th & 7th time will lock it down. Then, set your zones based on that information.

Looking past how you set your max HR, having to slow your pace way down is a sign of how inefficient your body is at using oxygen to burn fat as energy. That being said, if you are running in the right zone, and stick to it (e.g. run in Z2), you will see your Z2 pace start dropping pretty quick. I started HR training on the run last year, and really noticed that during my long run if I ran in very low Z2 that really helped boost my performance in mid-week Z2 runs.

The hardest thing to do while starting HR training, IMHO, is keeping the ego in check at the start. You have to slow your pace way down to hold the proper zone, but HR training does work, and you will be able to run faster while holding "X" bpm.
2011-12-13 2:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training
You are doing it right. Everyone I know (myself included) had the same experience when they started HR training. Give it 2-3 months and you will be amazed at how your pace gradually increases as you stay in Zone 2. It is really interesting to watch. I also agree with the last poster who recommended a field test. Any of the books (Friel, Maffetone, etc.) have ways to do it and determine lactate threshold HR. From there, you can get very accurate zones. It is also fun to do the test every 3-4 mos as an objective measure of your fitness. Good luck.
2011-12-13 3:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training
TriMyBest - 2011-12-13 6:19 AM

Welcome to BT!

First, a question:  How did you determine your zones?



X2 - without more info it is impossible to give any valid advice.

Shane
2011-12-14 10:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training
Thanks. I used the "220 minus your age" method. I'll try field testing it to see if I come up with different numbers.


2011-12-15 4:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training
jeremytris - 2011-12-15 12:12 AM

Thanks. I used the "220 minus your age" method. I'll try field testing it to see if I come up with different numbers.


Good plan - the 220 - age will work for some but be too far off for others. Also, do not use a max HR test in order to determine your zones; you want to do a lactate threshold test and then determine your zones based on that. It will give results that are much more applicable to endurance training.

Shane
2011-12-15 5:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training

gsmacleod - 2011-12-15 5:25 AM
jeremytris - 2011-12-15 12:12 AM Thanks. I used the "220 minus your age" method. I'll try field testing it to see if I come up with different numbers.
Good plan - the 220 - age will work for some but be too far off for others. Also, do not use a max HR test in order to determine your zones; you want to do a lactate threshold test and then determine your zones based on that. It will give results that are much more applicable to endurance training. Shane

Agreed.  I've been doing HR training since 2002.  I just had my lactate threshold testing done and learned that my goal zone for easy running is actually 10 bpm higher than I had previously thought (previously calculated on observed max heart rate i.e., % effort = bpm/(max HR-resting HR*100%).

2011-12-15 9:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training

What are some good Field Test for Running and Cycling as I have heard you should have different zones for each

2011-12-15 10:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training
triguy1043 - 2011-12-15 10:06 AM

What are some good Field Test for Running and Cycling as I have heard you should have different zones for each

Check out this article:

    http://beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=633

There are other protocols for field tests, but that one is as good as any, IMO.  (It covers both bike and run.)

2011-12-15 11:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training

Coldfire - 2011-12-13 10:10 AM
TriMyBest - 2011-12-13 5:19 AM First, a question:  How did you determine your zones?
Weclome to BT! Great question above! I would suggest not using the set calculations to set your max HR, but field test it (my field test vs set calculations are two very separate numbers). The book gives you ways to test it which will all work well. I would also add to find a pretty good hill about .10 of a mile long, and sprint up/jog down and repeat 6x or 7x times. You should get close on the 5th up, but the 6th & 7th time will lock it down. Then, set your zones based on that information. Looking past how you set your max HR, having to slow your pace way down is a sign of how inefficient your body is at using oxygen to burn fat as energy. That being said, if you are running in the right zone, and stick to it (e.g. run in Z2), you will see your Z2 pace start dropping pretty quick. I started HR training on the run last year, and really noticed that during my long run if I ran in very low Z2 that really helped boost my performance in mid-week Z2 runs. The hardest thing to do while starting HR training, IMHO, is keeping the ego in check at the start. You have to slow your pace way down to hold the proper zone, but HR training does work, and you will be able to run faster while holding "X" bpm.

+1 Welcome to BT!

+1 field testing to determine zones and gauge progress

+1 run slow to get fast, it works and it is very cool.  This is the zen of IM training, you must learn to run slowly.  Not because you want to race slowly, but because it builds the body in a different way.  And people who've never done it and say it doesn't work, they don't know.

It takes some getting used to, but once you've learned to do your run workouts at heart rate you can run multiple different training routes (flat, rolling, hilly) and the pace in minutes per mile doesn't matter.  A successful workout is when you hit the total time and at the target heart rate.

As you are doing these zone 2 runs, at a much slower pace, take advantage of this transition phase and run with slower runners that you previously couldn't train with.  Great opportunity to score points with your wife/girl friend, 'let's go for a run together'.  You can attempt to explain the whole physiology, or you can just say 'because I want to spent time with you'. 



2011-12-22 5:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training

This is the test that I have used for the past two years.  I am now getting ready to start the Fink plan in February for IMWI and I have been doing the Z2 workouts and find the zones to be very accurate for both bike and run.  I do find that during the run my HR rises a bit but I just back off a little and I drop right back into the zone.

Like some previous posters said - just stick with it and also make sure you re-test every once in a while to update your zones.

Experior - 2011-12-15 10:43 PM
triguy1043 - 2011-12-15 10:06 AM

What are some good Field Test for Running and Cycling as I have heard you should have different zones for each

Check out this article:

    http://beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=633

There are other protocols for field tests, but that one is as good as any, IMO.  (It covers both bike and run.)

2011-12-23 11:51 AM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training

Does a 195bpm lactate threshold seem high?  I just finished a 5 mile run where I was pushing pretty hard the whole way.  Looking at my HR over the final 3 miles it averaged about 195-196 (192, 195, 200 respectively).  My max HR during the run was 207.  This was taken with a Garmin strap and Wahoo Fitness ANT+ iPhone adapter.  I know I've always had a high MHR since I was in high school.  I was a Jr National Team rower prior to quitting anything athletic for 10+ years so I'm accustom to pushing my body pretty hard.  The link to my workout below, which isn't terribly fast at 7:30/m pace for 5 miles, but considering I'm 25lbs above my target weight of 185lbs, I know that will come down over time.  

 

http://www.mapmyfitness.com/workout/82859798

2011-12-24 1:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training
PeteDin206 - 2011-12-23 11:51 AM

Does a 195bpm lactate threshold seem high?  I just finished a 5 mile run where I was pushing pretty hard the whole way.  Looking at my HR over the final 3 miles it averaged about 195-196 (192, 195, 200 respectively).  My max HR during the run was 207.  This was taken with a Garmin strap and Wahoo Fitness ANT+ iPhone adapter.  I know I've always had a high MHR since I was in high school.  I was a Jr National Team rower prior to quitting anything athletic for 10+ years so I'm accustom to pushing my body pretty hard.  The link to my workout below, which isn't terribly fast at 7:30/m pace for 5 miles, but considering I'm 25lbs above my target weight of 185lbs, I know that will come down over time.  

 

http://www.mapmyfitness.com/workout/82859798



HR is different from person to person.

I'm 39 years old and my HR zones are as follows:
HR Zones for Run:
Warm up / Recovery - 123 - 155
Steady State / Endurance- 156 - 172
Tempo - 173 - 184
Interval - 185 - 189
Anaerobic Capacity- 190+

According to the 220-minus your age... My "max" HR should be 179. Funny.

So for you, that might just be your HR... it being that high doesn't really matter.

Otherwise, you do HR training and zone 2 work to build a base so you can go faster with the same low HR. AKA: working less to go the same speed. And a lot of people have to go painfully slow at the start.

Good luck!
2011-12-24 3:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training

HR is different from person to person. I'm 39 years old and my HR zones are as follows: HR Zones for Run: Warm up / Recovery - 123 - 155 Steady State / Endurance- 156 - 172 Tempo - 173 - 184 Interval - 185 - 189 Anaerobic Capacity- 190+ According to the 220-minus your age... My "max" HR should be 179. Funny. So for you, that might just be your HR... it being that high doesn't really matter. Otherwise, you do HR training and zone 2 work to build a base so you can go faster with the same low HR. AKA: working less to go the same speed. And a lot of people have to go painfully slow at the start. Good luck!

+1

At 42, the max HR I've seen in my 5K data is around 202.  My last 5K average was a 184. Some folks freak when I tell them that.  Last 10M race a few weeks ago had a max HR of 189 and an average of 177 which included some challenging hills. I pretty much defy most general calculators and there are others out there. The best thing to do is figure out your true max by testing it out.

2011-12-24 9:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training

I have actually had my doctor tell me something similiar and that I shouldn't get my heart rate over 150 when I work out because he was basing it on the 220 - age formula.  I pretty much laughed at him and walked out of the office.

KSH - 2011-12-24 1:33 PM  HR is different from person to person. I'm 39 years old and my HR zones are as follows: HR Zones for Run: Warm up / Recovery - 123 - 155 Steady State / Endurance- 156 - 172 Tempo - 173 - 184 Interval - 185 - 189 Anaerobic Capacity- 190+ According to the 220-minus your age... My "max" HR should be 179. Funny. So for you, that might just be your HR... it being that high doesn't really matter. Otherwise, you do HR training and zone 2 work to build a base so you can go faster with the same low HR. AKA: working less to go the same speed. And a lot of people have to go painfully slow at the start. Good luck!



Edited by tmoran80 2011-12-24 9:14 PM


2011-12-25 12:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training

--duplicate post, sorry, don't know what happened here--



Edited by brucemorgan 2011-12-25 1:00 PM
2011-12-25 12:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training

--duplicate post, sorry, don't know what happened here--



Edited by brucemorgan 2011-12-25 1:01 PM
2011-12-25 12:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training

--duplicate post, sorry, don't know what happened here--



Edited by brucemorgan 2011-12-25 1:01 PM
2011-12-25 12:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training
TriFlorida - 2011-12-24 1:50 PM

HR is different from person to person. I'm 39 years old and my HR zones are as follows: HR Zones for Run: Warm up / Recovery - 123 - 155 Steady State / Endurance- 156 - 172 Tempo - 173 - 184 Interval - 185 - 189 Anaerobic Capacity- 190+ According to the 220-minus your age... My "max" HR should be 179. Funny. So for you, that might just be your HR... it being that high doesn't really matter. Otherwise, you do HR training and zone 2 work to build a base so you can go faster with the same low HR. AKA: working less to go the same speed. And a lot of people have to go painfully slow at the start. Good luck!

+1

At 42, the max HR I've seen in my 5K data is around 202.  My last 5K average was a 184. Some folks freak when I tell them that.  Last 10M race a few weeks ago had a max HR of 189 and an average of 177 which included some challenging hills. I pretty much defy most general calculators and there are others out there. The best thing to do is figure out your true max by testing it out.

Two comments on this.

First, everyone is different yes but there are generalities that commonly hold true.  One of those commonalities is that in general a relatively high HR for a relatively moderate level of exertion is generally indicative of poor fitness.   If person X runs a 5K at 10 min pace, and person X's average HR was 190, then chances are the person has a long way to improve.  Think of it this way: person X's was so inefficient at running (mechanically and otherwise) that his cardio system had to run at 190 bpm (perhaps 95% of max output) to fuel it.

Person Y, with much better overall fitness, might run the same 5K / 10 min pace with an HR of 130.  Person Y's better fitness let them run the same pace as person Y but only say 65% of max output. 

Second, I'm a huge fan of Maffetone style HR training, MAF tests, and the like.  It's produced great results for me.  For example, I ran my first marathon in 5:15 with an average HR of around 190.  RPE around 7.  After a couple years of training, I ran a 3:30 with an average HR of around 190.  RPE around 7, and I would have finished in 3:20 if I hadn't hurt my foot at mile 18.



Edited by brucemorgan 2011-12-25 1:01 PM
2011-12-26 4:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training
brucemorgan - 2011-12-25 2:49 PM

First, everyone is different yes but there are generalities that commonly hold true.  One of those commonalities is that in general a relatively high HR for a relatively moderate level of exertion is generally indicative of poor fitness.   If person X runs a 5K at 10 min pace, and person X's average HR was 190, then chances are the person has a long way to improve.  Think of it this way: person X's was so inefficient at running (mechanically and otherwise) that his cardio system had to run at 190 bpm (perhaps 95% of max output) to fuel it.

Person Y, with much better overall fitness, might run the same 5K / 10 min pace with an HR of 130.  Person Y's better fitness let them run the same pace as person Y but only say 65% of max output



It is incredibly unlikely that the maxHR of these two athletes would be the same so while the athlete with the lower HR might have more potential than the athlete with the higher HR, the disparity is likely not as great as the numbers you chose would seem to indicate.

Also, if they both run a ~30 min 5k, then I would say that their fitness is equal - there are no points for running with the lowest HR in an event.

Shane


2011-12-26 11:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training
gsmacleod - 2011-12-26 2:26 AM
brucemorgan - 2011-12-25 2:49 PM First, everyone is different yes but there are generalities that commonly hold true.  One of those commonalities is that in general a relatively high HR for a relatively moderate level of exertion is generallyindicative of poor fitness.   If person X runs a 5K at 10 min pace, and person X's average HR was 190, then chances are the person has a long way to improve.  Think of it this way: person X's was so inefficient at running (mechanically and otherwise) that his cardio system had to run at 190 bpm (perhaps 95% of max output) to fuel it.

Person Y, with much better overall fitness, might run the same 5K / 10 min pace with an HR of 130.  Person Y's better fitness let them run the same pace as person Y but only say 65% of max output

It is incredibly unlikely that the maxHR of these two athletes would be the same so while the athlete with the lower HR might have more potential than the athlete with the higher HR, the disparity is likely not as great as the numbers you chose would seem to indicate.

Those numbers were drawn from personal experience.  Nearly 10 years ago my first 5K was at 190bpm and 32 minutes (I was holding a 10 min pace).  I can easily finish 5K, 6 mile, even 15 mile easy runs at 10 min pace at 130bpm.  My maxHR is still about the same - 200 or so.

And while I agree it's unlikely two random people's maxHRs are exactly the same, they don't need to be for broad comparison purposes.  In terms of generalities, maxHRs vary less than general fitness. There are always outliers, though.

gsmacleod - 2011-12-26 2:26 AM Also, if they both run a ~30 min 5k, then I would say that their fitness is equal - there are no points for running with the lowest HR in an event. Shane

Their performance is the same, true, but performance != fitness.

2011-12-26 11:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Heart rate training
brucemorgan - 2011-12-26 1:28 PM

Those numbers were drawn from personal experience.  Nearly 10 years ago my first 5K was at 190bpm and 32 minutes (I was holding a 10 min pace).  I can easily finish 5K, 6 mile, even 15 mile easy runs at 10 min pace at 130bpm.  My maxHR is still about the same - 200 or so.

And while I agree it's unlikely two random people's maxHRs are exactly the same, they don't need to be for broad comparison purposes.  In terms of generalities, maxHRs vary less than general fitness. There are always outliers, though.

Their performance is the same, true, but performance != fitness.



I assumed that you were talking about an athlete giving a maximal effort over the 5k distance - in that case performance is equal to fitness. I misunderstood the point that you were trying to make when it comes to HR training/testing.

Shane
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